Tonyfinch

I don't think it would,Adam. The French,Italian and Spanish societies are far more conservative and culturally reactionary than Britain and also than the large American cities. I mean Spain was a fascist country until the seventies for goodness sake.I think this is largely because they are far more agricultural than Britain, and agricultural societies are always more reactionary and parochial than urban ones. The whole spirit of welcome as symbolised by the Statue of Liberty "bring me your huddled masses" etc. can either be interepreted cynically (they've only been brought over to do the dirty jobs etc.) or more hopefully as a genuine,if not always successful attempt at valuing all equally for what they and their cultures can contribute,and food is included in this.You see it happening in Australia now.

Colonization apart,the main reason for such diverse immigration into Britain was that for one and a half centuries London was the biggest and most important port in Europe and groups from all over the world washed up and stayed.(the first Chinese community in London comprised Chinese sailors who jumped ship and settled in Limehouse,opening Europe's first Chinese restaurants there) But also,Britain has a history of allowing immigrant communities to develop and practice their own cultures far more than France. Our Brittania rules the waves mentality led to a kind of self confidence to the point where we didn't feel our indigenous heritage needed such stringent safeguarding. In France some Southern towns are controlled by anti-immigrant Fascist councils,Moslem girls are not allowed to wear ethnic clothing in schools and I simply do not agree that the French have "embraced" North African cuisine. Ethnic restaurants hardly exist outside of Paris and Marseille and even in Paris they are regarded as a cheap alternative for those rare moments when you maybe jaded with French fare. Can you honestly imagine a North African restaurant getting a Michelin star in France? This is not to say that French cusine is not superior to indigenous British.I think we all agreed that a while ago.But there are other factors governing this issue and the British tolerance towards and encouragement of multi-culturalism is one of them.

That is not the main reason.Britain has a far more developed attitude towards multi-culturalism and multi-ethnic development than France,Italy or Spain (a protestant/catholic thing?) Regardless of the standard of its indigenous cuisine Britain welcomes the tikka masala as a valid entity in itself.In France it would be greeted with suspicion and sneers.

Parker liked Zind-Humbrecht. Really? I always said the man was a genius.He gets 100 on my scale of human beings (mind you,even Hitler gets 50).

Ahhhh......To think how I could have taunted you at school

Red: Gaja White: Zind-Humbrecht Actually my desert island wine would be vintage port-'45,'63,'77 from Fonseca,Crofts or Grahams

I agree completely with Andy.I think St.John's rejection of any garnish or adornment goes beyond the functional and into the puritanical.You do not have to construct tower blocks on a plate in order to present food as attractively as possible.

Cabrales. Bring your poems round to my place and we can discuss them over scorpions and absinthe.Then I'll show you mine.....

A grouchy old git called Plotniki Ate game pie then felt a bit sicky He decided to parse Much wind through his arse Then sighed and thought "That did the tricky"

Cue list of restaurants serving British food in London: Alfred (Shaftesbury Ave) City Rhodes Rhodes in the Square Quality Chop House Butlers Wharf Chop House St.John Rules Smiths of Smithfield Dorchester Grill Room Savoy Grill Room Lindsay House Boisdale Green's Wilton's Sweetings J.Sheekey's Rudland & Stubbs Ransome's Dock The Salt House The Ivy (yes,The Ivy) Loch Fyne Restaurants The Atlantic Veronica's Maggie Jones Chimes Simpson's in the Strand (Breakfast) The Guinea Grill I'm not vouching for the standard and quality in all these places.Merely pointing out that there's enough there to keep a curious and open minded American tourist engaged for some considerable time

Actually the third and fourth lines of a limerick can have 6 syllables as long as the stress is on the penultimate syllable viz: They said he ate GAME pie But that was a CRUEL lie Cabrales-good effort but don't give up the day job.Actually your restaurant reviews are very poetic.

Nah nah Wilfred it scans.The first line reads There once was a chap called Wil.....FRED See? (ya knucklehead)

There once was a chap called Wilfred Who was known as a right knucklehead He said he ate game pie But that was a cruel lie Because he ate horseshit instead Gotta be a bit pie-eyed when I write these (sorry)

I think this thread is all spun out

The notion propogated that pies are ways of using up leftover sraps and the purpose of the pastry is to bulk these out is incorrect. Pies were the original take away food People bought pies on the street from Piemen and ate them there and then.The purpose of the pastry was to contain the ingredients of the pie so that eating was manageable in the street without cutlery or plates.It was an edible equivalent of the cardboard box.Doubtless the pastry sometimes tasted worse than a cardboard box but people of all classes ate them and not just the poor.People also took them home to eat because it was cooked food that they could carry and many didn't have facilities to cook at home.

Cabrales,I just looked at the Rules menu.You forgot to mention the Steak and Kidney Pudding with Oysters-----yummmo!!

Cabrales,the best places in London to buy game pies are Borough Market-plenty of various pies there made by small producers,Harrods,Fortnum&Mason,Harvey Nicholls,Selfridges and some butchers. If you mean which restaurants I can't help,although Simpson's in the Strand used to do a pie special on one day of the week and you might be lucky at Rules. Moving away from game The Cork and Bottle wine bar in Leicester Sq. promotes its "famous,hand raised ham and cheese pie". I sampled this once and the best I can say about it is that its ....er....filling. Finally,Porters in Covent Gdn. specialises in pies,but these are precisely the types that Steve P. hates so much,and rightly so.Avoid.

Steve,heaven forfend anyone question your superior knowledge and expertise,But I'm afraid your "big guns" are blasting away at an open door. No-one is disagreeing that there are more French restaurants than "English " restaurants. I thought we'd all accepted that and gone into the many reasons why. Where you get up people's noses is in your insistence that the world of food can be framed in trems of generalised hierarchies (French food is "better" than English/American food)and that these hierarchies have some criterion referenced validity, and that at the same time those criteria just happen to respond exactly to your tastes. This leads you into tortuous discussions with people who just don't frame things the way you do. EG. You don't like game and you don't like meat in pastry or pastry made with white flour.....ERGO it is not possible for a game pie to be as good as superior to something you DO like ..eg foie gras.Anyone who considers game pie superior is wrong or stupid or lacks your "expertise" or whatever But....millions of people do not like or want to eat the artificially bloated,fat satutated livers of force fed geese and ducks. In fact the idea disgusts them They'd far rather eat a game pie. They LIKE game pies But here's this guy telling them that they're just plain WRONG and if you don't believe him,well you just don't have his knowledge and expertise and that's just too bad. Instead of acknowledging the relativity of the culinary world (there are good,bad and indifferent game pies,there is good and bad foie gras) your mindset compels you to rank order in terms of cuisines and foodstuffs and then defend your ranking as though it constituted empirical fact.It leads to some fun arguments but you should remember Steve,it may make you feel good to be at the top of your self -created hierarchy.....but it can't half get lonely up there.

But my point is what ARE people finding good enough to ask for in the first place? Why, Macdonalds,and Burger King and KFC and Dunkin'Donuts etc. etc. These and processed foods from supermarkets are what most people now eat day in day out.Is this "better" than the game pie? YOU may live in a world where people eat food cooked by Ducasse and Michael Bras and Gordon Ramsey and the chappie at El Bulli but 99.999% of the population, even the French population, do not and never will. Good,well made "artisanal" foods are still ubiquitous in France,but fast foods are making rapid inroads there too.Even if its true that people are not asking for meats cooked in pastry it does not logically follow that what they're asking for instead is culinarily superior or physically healthier.

Steve,sometimes I wonder what you believe the vast population of the Western world are going around eating everyday. Admittedly they're not at home making game pies-and more's the pity.My recipe,with the sauce possibly thickened with a little cream and redcurrant,would be a gourmet delight compared to what most people in Britain,the States AND DARE I SAY EVEN FRANCE,are actually consuming day in and day out-which is mostly either ready cooked junk food,or heavily processed foods from supermarkets. The game pie,and foods like it,may not be three star haute cuisine so beloved by you and by so many on these boards (yeah and I like it from time to time) but if they are well made with good ingredients they form a different,more everyday form of gourmet eating that we would do well to respect rather than be glad to see the back of. Of course if its poorly made,then it stinks,but that applies to everything.

How about "The Pig?"

Actually,Steve,that is a very disingenuous and propagandist way to assert a prejudice. If I were trying to convince that French food "stank" I coud say thus: Pate de Foie Gras:The artificially bloated livers of force fed ducks and geese,expanded until they are saturated in fat and then ground into a beige coloured paste.......Bleechh! Andouilettes: Lumps of pigs intestines crammed into a bleached pigs skin casing.......yuk! Tete De Veau: Well work it out for yourself. And so on On the other hand I could say: Game Pie:Juicy chunks of wild venison haunch,braised in fresh ly made game stock, Cornish cider and herbs,encased in golden puff pastry glazed with egg yolk and served with creamy chive mash. Exactly what would you be holding your nose at then?

Absolutely,but that applies to anywhere.One sometimes has the impression reading some of these threads that the French spend all their time dining at places like Ducasse and Gagnaire etc.One of the difficulties in discussing national cuisine is knowing which national cuisine we're talking about. Chefs may be media personalities these days but what the guy at EL Bulli is cooking up bears as much relation to what 99% of the Spanish actually eat as Gordon Ramsey's ouevre does to what my mate's Gran eats in Hartlepool.

A much better example to underline Steve Ps point would be Australia.This is one of the few countries in the world in relatively recent times with substantial immigration from Britain.Poor immigrants ,not moneyed colonisers.Given that its clear that immigration has a profound effect on a nation's eating culture,it is actually pathetic to realise that British immigrants did not take with them anything that could be remotely described as a cuisine.They took the pub culture with them and that was it! The same applies to the Irish in places like Boston-lots of Italian restaurants in Boston but how many Irish ones?-plenty of Irish themed pubs though. Australia ,especially Sydney and Melbourne,has some of the most exciting and innovative restaurant cooking around right now.I was there for 6 weeks in the mid-nineties and was stunned by the quality and exuberance of the restaurant scene. But my point is that this only begun to happen as a result of immigration from all over Asia.The new immigrants are interested in something more than twenty pints of lager and a meat pie at the end of the night.Along with commited young Aussies they are developing a melting pot of influences to drive food forward.You can call it "fusion" but in a world less straitened by concepts of national cuisine and hierarchies of cuisine,there is a freshness about it that totally works in context there. So in my opinion British cuisine failed the immigration test.It had a chance to really establish itself anew and it failed.Yes you can still get Fish and Chips and meat pies in Oz,and in some places they're bloody good.But the real culinary excitement is being driven from a different tradition-although it certainly isn't French!

Yes it is Andy,of course it is.You must have had a momentary sense of humour failure.No-one's taking any of this stuff TOO seriously are they....?