Tonyfinch

Chinese restaurants in the UK, with one or two rare exceptions, do not appear to be aspirational. They appear happy to occupy the niche they carved out for themselves thirty years ago. Most serve the same dishes they did then. Those that do serve more unusual dishes often do not translate them into English on the menu, working on the assumption that non Chinese clientele will not be interested in them. They do not seem interested in developing the cuisine or encouraging customers to try new things. Chinese restaurants do not appear to see it as their place to advise customers regarding what to order-the combination of dishes, the balance of the meal etc. They are left way behind by Japanese/Korean and some Thai restaurants in this respect. Possibly Chinese restaurateurs have become jaded by the demands of the sweet and sour pork brigade, but Indian restaurants are beginning to push frontiers forward and Indian chefs are beginning to make names for themselves by offering more individualised takes on regional cuisine. This is not yet happening with Chinese chefs. Many Chinese restaurants persist in using large quantities of MSG which, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, is deeply unpopular with discerning Western diners. Maybe the Michelin star gained by Hakkasan will herald an era when Chinese restaurants begin to see new possibilities. If not they are in danger of becoming little more than Oriental junk food restaurants over the next ten years.

I sense an assumption lurking behind this topic: ie. a "cultured" person is a "better" person. It is this assumption that has led people to agonize over how the German people could have produced Hitler given that Germany was the land of Beethoven and Goethe and Schiller and so on. As if being well read, or well "musiked" or well dined etc. somehow leads automatically to greater understanding, compassion, tolerance etc. for one's fellow man. The Nazis ,of course, were very well dined. As they slaughtered their way through Europe they acquired the finest wines, dined on the finest foods, stole the finest art. It is an enormous myth that being "cultured" equates to being "civilized" if we judge "civilized to mean the way we treat our fellows. Therefore being "well dined", well read, well dressed etc. may be fun, and they may be ways to pass the time or to stimulate us intellectually or sensorily, but ultimately they are only ends in themselves and bear no relation whatsoever to any moral or ethical standard by which we may assess and value ourselves and others.

Well I've got more complicated recipes but Archana specified simple. This one is straight out of The Complete Asian Cookbook by Charmaine Solomon

On TV recently Delia Smith said that after years of trying she'd finally cracked whole roast duck Pour boiling water over it and pat dry. Make sure its dry Prick all over with a fork to make holes for the fat to run out. Sprinkle with salt. Roast in a HOT oven for the whole time. DO NOT TURN OVEN DOWN. Time depends on your oven and duck size but allow 20 mins per pound at least. Pour off fat from the pan regularly. That's it. You will be left with a mahogany fat free duck with crispy skin. Works every time. Apply stuffings, sauces etc AFTERWARDS

Coren was interviewed on Radio 4 on Wednesday saying that he will not accept an open invitation to review Sketch because he thinks the prices are outrageous. He said that he hoped that lots of people claiming to be him would phone the restaurant and make a booking and then not turn up, leaving them with an empty table and out of pocket for the evening. The point of such a wheeze would be to hasten its demise, which he hoped would happen as soon as possible. I can't decide whether this raises or lowers him in my estimation.

Soak some saffron strands in 1 tablespoon hot water. Take half a teaspoon each: ground black pepper, ground turmeric, ground cumin, chili powder Take quarter of a teaspoon each: ground cardamom, cloves,cinnamon and mace. Mix together-the saffron and soaking water,all the ground spices, two cloves of crushed garlic, teaspoon salt, two tablespoons yogurt. Rub a tablespoon of the mixture inside the chicken cavity and rub some of the mixture all over the chicken. Leave to marinate for at least one hour. Heat ghee/oil and fry two sliced onions until golden. Remove onions and brown chicken on all sides. Return onions to pan and stir in remaining marinade plus one and a half cups chicken stock or water. Bring to boil then turn very low,cover and cook for 45 mins or until chicken is very tender. Turn chicken from time to time and baste with liquid. You could do this part in the oven if you wish but the important point is that the liquid should evaporate almost completely leaving just what is clinging to the chicken. Serve hot.

Gary, I stand corrected re their inclusion. However why those three don't have a star while Club Gascon does would be nice to know but Michelin would not deign to tell us.

The notion that being well dined is a relatively new concept is a myth. Social history tells that the ruling elites in all societies have always placed great importance on feasting and banqueting. Contemporary accounts of meals in Ancient Rome, Medieval and Elizabethan England, Pre Revolutionary France and so on tell of incredibly lavish feasts ,with dish after dish of incredibly complicated and labour intensive recipes and huge amounts of food that would make today's well dined person look like an anorexic. Curnosky's account of his hunting weekend,recounted in Elizabeth David's French Provincial Cooking, shows that the 19th Century French bourgeoisie were eating three rich and elaborate meals a day and that pleasure and leisure at table were considered the primary purpose of most upper class social gatherings. In the backwash of both Communist and Fascist revolutions the puritanical left and right may have considered "well dinedness" to be an example of bourgeois decadence, but these days inceased wealth distribution has led to : 1) A decline in the number of people employing servants to cook for them in their own homes 2) A larger number of people with the disposable income to spend on goods other than the bare neccessities, including food. Both factors have led to the rise of restaurants as a major element in Western social life, but when it comes down to it all that's happened is that what was always available to the few is now available to far more.

Gary. Michelin is not just weak on Oriental food. It is weak on British, Italian, Spanish etc. For example, why no recognition of Moro? Or The Real Greek? Or St John? All groundbreaking restaurants and extremely popular and successful. I don't know the AA Guide but the Good Food Guide shows far more recognition of non French and French type restaurants, at least as far as London is concerned. More importantly, when you read the GFG you know why a restaurant has been included. Michelin has always preferred to create a mystique around its criteria for inclusion-something I don't feel sits well in the 21st century. Maybe its new inclusion of commentaries is an attempt to redress this.

Cabrales, forget the three and two starred restaurants. I was talking about the restaurants that Michelin cares to include at all. They are overwhelmingly French or French type places. The fact is the guide cannot cope with the diversity of the British restaurant scene. It doesn't face this problem in France or Spain in Italy. And it hasn't faced it in the UK, preferring to pretend that whole swathes of extremely vibrant and popular cuisines barely exist. As far as the UK is concerned it should be honest enough to recognize this and admit its partiality. As it is the way it renders cuisines "invisible" smacks of reactionary arrogance at best and downright culinary racism at worst.

As you do, as you do. Do not cook it. Do what busboy said. Eat it as pate or use it as it is as part of Tournedos Rossini.

That's missing the point, Cabrales. If a new reader looks at the UK guide and is interested in THE BEST food she will conclude that (almost) all the "best" restaurants are French and that the Chinese ones, Hakkasan apart are really not up to much. The same applies to other cuisines. The reader without a cuisine preference will be given a biased steer without that bias being overtly stated. The fact that Michelin is a French company is irrelevant. It does not logically follow that readers will therefore know that the UK guide is biased towards French restaurants.

Actually many do. Often you will read a review which starts "I've not been that fond of Lower Uzbekistani cuisine up to now but....." This includes your good self of course. You are constantly citing your preference for French cuisine over all others to give context to your opinions. But Michelin is not just a bunch of reviews. The implication in Michelin is that it has visited every worthwhile restaurant in a country and then singled out the "best" ones for various stars and other symbolic awards. In a country with a restaurant culture as diverse as the UK I think you are doing readers a disservice if you do not explicitly state that you are approaching this task from a culturally biased standpoint. I repeat:why would you NOT? Unless, of course, you do not comprehend that you are...........

Cabrales, the question to ask is why would Michelin NOT state that it is biased towards French cuisine? Can you think of a single reasonable answer to that question? It wouldn't matter a jot to those who know already and to those who do not it tells them where the guide is coming from. What would be the problem?

Cabrales, I can think of three that could /should have qualifed-Ken Lo's Memories of China, Mr Chow and The Oriental at The Dorchester Hotel. I've had wonderful meals in all three although admittedly not in the last five years.Some say China House in Piccadily is as good though I've never been there. These restaurants easily meet the Michelin criteria for luxury decor, furnishings ,service etc., while many others could easily compare for food alone-but presumably that's not enough. I do have a problem with Michelin not being upfront about its criteria and not stating its preference for French cuisine. You say"everybody knows it" but there may well be thousands of visitors to London from all round the world who know no such thing and there is nothing in the guide itself which admits to such a bias.

So a city the size of London has only one three star and three two star restaurants-all French. Michelin's parsimony has less to do with maintaining rarified standards and everything to do with its failure to comprehend the tastes and needs of restautrant goers in a modern non French city in 2003. As said above ,one feels its star to Hakkasan to be a token and belated gesture towards recognizing the importance of Chinese cuisine in London restaurant life for the last thirty years. One senses that non-French restaurants get stars through gritted teeth.

Thom. Why not start that new thread? I was right about Locatelli then (I love to say I told you so). Dreary and predictable-that's Michelin for you.

Shit, Charlene. Does this mean you can't hold the bottle in one hand and the glass in the other pouring constantly as you normally do?

I'd be there like a shot but my liver's away. Actually have a prior engagement and cannot extricate myself. Have a great time. I've told Andy I'll buy him a birthday drink at the Thai feast (well I might pour him a glass of my wine). Which reminds me. I'd better re-post the date.

Simplicity and decadence are not neccessarily incompatible. Simplicity is not the same as austerity

Delighted to have introduced yet more egulleters to the delights of New Tayyab. Those of us who were there with S Plotnicki on Sunday night waited with bated breath until he mumbled "this is good" through a mouthful of sikhi kebab. Phew. Relief and jubilation all round and much merriment made.

Well it goes back to another e gullet perennial. Why aren't Scottish people, with all the wonderful produce up there, demanding higher quality places to eat?

No. That's a snob. Or an arrogant bastard. But he is not an elitist if he is not taking steps to exclude you from participating. All elites are exclusionary by definition. Only by excluding can they maintain their elite status. If someone says me and my friends know more than you and we're not going to tell you what it is we know- THAT is elitist If he says we know more than you and THIS is what we know-not elitist.

That would be me dad. I humour him.

I find myself agreeing some of the way with Steve P on this issue. If I want to buy a car or a DVD player and I know someone who knows a lot more about them than me then I'm only too pleased for their suggestions and advice. I don't get all defensive/aggressive because they know more than I do. But when it comes to food and drink some people find it difficult to cope with others who may know more than them and who may be able to advise them that wine A is better than wine B. That's when allegations of snobbery and elitism start getting thrown around. It must be that matters of personal taste are so bound up with our notion of who we are that any questioning of our personal taste feels to some people like a personal attack and the more insecure a person feels in this area the less able they are to separate the two. Thus we get Dodger and those like him/her.