markk
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Posts posted by markk
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when bryan turns 21, we should all gather at a nice cocktail lounge with him as the guest of honor and buy him drinks. Real drinks. With lots of hard liquor in 'em. Hell, this thread will still be active when that happens. It will make the planning easy.
we'll all have a good time. Kiss and makeup and all that good stuff.
I hope it's a cute picture.Well, the makeup part is fine, but I'd have to see the picture before I can decide about the kissing part.
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I agree. I think the point here is if the police receive a complaint.
That's the point I had been taking issue with.
I had assumed that from time to time law enforcement officers or State Liquor Authority agents are in all licensed establishments at one time or another, for what may be the even the unlikliest of reasons (Fat Guy pointed that out, but I can't find the post). And that's why I thought a restaurant wouldn't take the risk.
Now, of course, Bryan can't do this (because I'm sure his picture is posted everywhere in New York now), but it would be interesting if any gulletteers in New York with 18-20 year old kids would take them to a fine restaurant since this thread has taken off, and see if they can get away with ordering wine now.
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But I for one haven't seen any documentation that this really happens, other than from two posters who said that they'd been served alcohol in upscale NYC restaurants when underage, and that's statistically insignificant. Everybody else has just said that 'of course, we all know it happens all the time', but I don't accept that.
markk, I don't understand what better evidence you're going to get. If nothing will convince you that this is so beyond a peer-reviewed controlled study with a large sample size and a p value of 0.001, then you're not going to be convinced.
What I was saying was that, reading the same thread as you, I came away with about three people who could say they'd been served while underage, and a lot of hearsay. But if you insist that this happens all the time, I do believe you. When I dine out, I look at people's plates (sometimes shamefully pretending to get lost on the way to the bathroom so I can do so), but never their faces.
But I also can't discount the person who said he (or she) had worked for Danny Meyer and other starred restaurants and was told not to break the law, or the many posters who are restaurant professionals who said they find it so highly unlikely given the financial risks.
I do believe you though. I'm just surprised by it.
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Do you actually GO to "fine dining" restaurants in New York?
I've been to the main Red Lobster in Times Square many times, and for my last birthday some friends took me to Otto Enoteca.
And when we go up on special occasions for Lobsterfest, which we do all the time, they card everybody who orders alcohol, old and young alike.
If you're saying that at the swanky places on Madison Park Avenue they serve wine to underage people on a regular basis, I'll bet you that if an inspector is present and sees it happen, the explanation "all fine restaurants do it, officer" will not get them out of a very serious fine, or worse.
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Thinking about this from a descriptive point of view rather than a normative one explains a lot about Bryan's state of mind when the original event occurred.
It was a "I'm shocked and disturbed because the sun rose in the West, unlike every other day when the sun rose in the East" kind of experience, rather than a "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law against ME!" experience. (Though the original description was easily able to be read both ways.)
Well, I think it was neither, but rather an "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law" experience.
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"Hey gang, get this! There's this place called Per Se, where all you have to do is redial repeatedly exactly two months before you want to go there, and then, if you're lucky, you can get seated at either 6 p.m. or 11 p.m., and you have to wear a jacket, and all you have to buy a $250 nine-course menu, but they'll serve you wine. Let's go and get a buzz on!"
Do you not know how many spoiled-rotten rich underage kids abuse their parents's wealth to get themselves served alcohol (including intimidating bars and restaurants to look the other way at their fake id) and then go out and kill people with their cars, or commit other foolish acts?
I'm still hoping somebody answers my theoretical pot quesion above...
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I'm amazed at the number of commenters on this thread who don't seem to understand why the law is what it is, as well as the lack of support for leaving it that way. So...
Your whole post was really kind-natured, and we need that here. But I don't think that that was the focal point of the thread, or where it really took off. I think it was this comment by Bryan that's sparking all the debate and disagreement...
That I'm able to dine at nice restaurants and am accustomed to ordering a glass of wine with my parents has nothing to do with class but rather habit and precedence. All I noted was that this has NEVER happened to me before in NYC, so I thought it shocking and slightly unsettling.An interesting theoretical question for Bryan would be (I think), if he were in a fine-dining Chinese restaurant (e.g. Shun Lee Palace) before the smoking ban took effect in NYC, would he think that the management should look the other way if a well-dressed person about to indulge in a very expensive Chinese feast were to smoke a joint at the table? I mean, this is New York City after all and the cops generally look the other way because they have more important things to do than bust people for smoking pot, (because although pot's technically illegal, nobody enforces the law on a person with one joint's worth for his own use) - let alone when they're paying top dollar for an upscale Chinese meal (and it's an accepted fact that pot probably does more to ehnance that meal than an alcoholic accompaniment).
Any takers?
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A Jewish woman spending the summer at a hotel in the Catskills goes to the manager to complain, and she tells him, "De food in dis hotel is horrible. Sheer, and utter poison! And such small portions !!"
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Mr. Finkelman goes into his favorite Lower East Side restaurant and sits down at the counter. A waiter comes over and sets down a bowl of soup in front of Finkelman.
Finkelman peers disapprovingly at the soup and beckons to the waiter. "Waiter! Taste this soup."
"Sir, is there a problem?" the waiter asks.
"Taste the soup." Finkelman insists.
"But what's the problem?"
"Taste the soup!!" Finkelman repeats.
"But Mr. Finkelman, " the waiter wails. "You've been eating here for thirty years! Has there ever been a problem with the soup?"
"TASTE THE SOUP!!!" Finkelman blurts.
"O.K., all right already," the waiter says. "Where's the spoon?"
Finkelman shoults triumphantly "Ah-ha!!!"
This is a technicality, but I believe the guy originally says to the waiter "I CAN'T EAT this soup." Perhaps a subtle difference, but I recently heard it told where the guy starts out "This soup is no good", which of course just doesn't work. But I believe "i can't eat this soup" is the correct opening.
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If you'd like to try some stupendous Argentinian fusion food (it's fused with French and Jewish influences) about 11 minutes farther south on Biscayne, check out this thread.
It's spectacularly good food.
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I wonder if maybe this isn't a reaction by "young people" to the instantaneous service at fast food restaurants they commonly patronize?
No, because today's kids drink fine wines with their meals.
(Well, if you were on that other thread, you'd get it.)
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Regarding the strategies for buffets, the rule I've found to be the most predictive of a good dining experience is the first one on the list - get there when everything is brand-spanking-new. Even if you have to eat lunch at 11 a.m., it's worth it.
Contrary to conventional wisdom, I could never eat lunch at 11 or dinner at 5, ever. I go at my normal dinner hour, late as that may be. This tells me what the food is actually like at that hour, whether they're still replenishing, or whether it's been sitting. If it's lousy at 9:30 at night, it doesn't help me to know that it'd be great at 5, because that's never going to happen with me.
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Hmmm... perhaps I've been reading sentences meant to be declarative as normative. I don't think the language is clear.
I've been speaking normatively.
Yeah, what he said.
But I for one haven't seen any documentation that this really happens, other than from two posters who said that they'd been served alcohol in upscale NYC restaurants when underage, and that's statistically insignificant. Everybody else has just said that 'of course, we all know it happens all the time', but I don't accept that.
And others have been saying that it happens all the time because of an unspoken rule that it's okay to serve wine to underage people in NYC fine dining restaurants, and that because it happens all the time, that establishes the precedent for the rule.
But as I see it, the two people who were served might genuinely have been (mis)taken by the servers as clearly being of legal age.
And I do think that the implication has definitely been made by some in the thread that the fact that we're talking about glasses of fine wine, and not pints of beer, justifies the unspoken rule, and I don't agree with that either.
As far as what a restaurateur would say if he weren't identified by name or by restaurant, who knows what light he'd shed on the thread?
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It would really be interesting if an eGullet administrator could contact one or two top restaurants in NYC and ask them to comment with the promise of anonymity. (I mean seriously, if the news media can do it, I'm sure eG could.)
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I wrote to the major supermarket chain in question, and asked how they could be selling a juice with additives banned in the USA.
This was the reply I just got:
"Our Quality Assurance Division has contacted the company that is supplying this product to our stores and the ingredients in the product are being reviewed by our staff.
"Providing our customers with wholesome foods is a high priority for staff at ShopRite. We want to assure you that our buyers and Quality Assurance staff continually monitor the products we offer for our customers to ensure they comply with Federal Regulations."
The first statement's just incredible to me; they're looking into the ingredients in a product months after they've been selling it in their stores?
And the second statement's just an untruth. If they monitored what they sell, the product with the banned ingredients wouldn't have made it to their shelves! And nothing about an ingredient banned for sale in the US says "wholseome" in my book.
Oh, well.
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Mark, I'd almost always prefer it at the very end of the savory part of the meal, for two reasons: first, because it's almost always the richest, fattiest savory course; second, because of its affinity for sweet wines like Tokaji.
I'll have to ponder your first point, since I'm just used to it at the beginning; but I can tell you that I've eaten a trencherman's lot of foie gras (and then some) in a part of France where they don't serve dessert wines with it, specifically because they think those wines don't belong at the start of the meal. They pair sauteed foie gras with a dry but spicy Riesling, and cold foie gras with a young, unevolved late-harvest wine at the sweetest. It's a great way to go that early in the meal.
But back to your first point - of course, when one would have the 7-course foie gras dinner at D'Artagnan...
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-- and indeed I think foie gras is served at an illogical point in nearly 100% of fine-dining meals --
That got my curiosity. Where in the meal do you usually have it served, and where would you prefer it?
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I want to figure out what I'm missing.
When I was growing up in southern California (the 60s) my dad used to sub for the regular keyboard player in the lounge of an old, historic restaurant (originally a stage-stop in the mid-1800s). Thus I have an emotional tie-in to this place.
This was a favorite choice for an anniversary or other important meal and the food and service were excellent (they probably still are). A few years ago I was going to book a reservation for our anniversary and saw that they had changed from inclusive meals to strictly a la carte. I priced out some things on the on-line menu and found that to have the same kind of meal we used to get was going to cost around 40% more than previous visits. That was a budget buster and we haven't been back since.
Here's my question: Am I just a cheapskate in gourmet's clothing or is the cost of production and serving a la carte more expensive, are the portion sizies supposed to be more generous, or is there some other driver that I haven't a clue about? My other experiences dining a la carte have left me feeling that I didn't get value for my money. Value for me is not about portion size, it is the quality of the food and the experience.
Those who can help, please clue me in.
Porthos Potwatcher
The Unrelenting Carnivore
You're a cheapskate.
But do bear in mind that it doesn't have to have anything whatsoever with the concept of a "complete dinner" vs. a la carte. Prices go up with time, and a restaurant is allowed to revise its pricing whenever it needs to or wants to. And simply stated, restaurants don't offer "complete dinners" any more; higher end ones do offer a "menu", which is a set meal for a fixed price, but this place just may not do that.
Well, maybe you're not a cheapskate; if the prices now seem high to you, you may just be under-funded.
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Does it really even require any special training or extra staff to get the food out in order? Doesn't it just require a coherent plan?
I do think it requires an "expediter" in some form; even if I give the waitress my order and tell her "don't order the main courses from the kitchen until you see we've finished our appetizers", then she is acting as the expediter.
It's a lot easier to order course by course if you need to return to a restaurant where this happens.
And if they refuse to do it that way, well, I'd stop going.
I've also been in some Mario Batali restaurants (more than one) where I was going to graze, and was told that I had to place the whole order at once. So I simply explained that it was an emotional hardship for me to do that, and could they ask for an exception from the kitchen, please. In both cases, the server immediately replied, "sure, you can order as you go".
If it's my fault that the late ordered things take a while to come out, I accept that. And if doing it that way (grazing, I mean) takes up the table much longer than usual, I'll tip generously. But in a regular app/main restaurant, I expect them in sequence, and order so I get them that way, because I always pretend that I'm the customer and that in return for my money I should get the meal the way I enjoy it.
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Also (I sort of suggested this earlier), a lot of out-of-the way regions where we go in hopes of finding local cuisine have simply ripped out their traditional grapes and started planting Chardonnay and Cabernet, even though they may not be as successful in that soil and climate to taste any good, and of course in the context of this discussion, no longer qualify as "local" wines to pair with the food.
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I have a local Italian eatery that's been around for a long time, is owned by another very popular food business in town, and which serves the dishes when and as the kitchen serves them, and it' not family style. So mid-way through your appetizers, the waitress will arrive with your main courses and ask you to make room on the tiny tables (which is usually impossible without forfeiting the remainder of your appetizers). On other occasions, when only one of two people has ordered an appetizer (but both have ordered main courses), they'll serve one person's app. and the other person's main course together.
This very popular place seems to operate on the premise of "Hey, my dad's got a barn, let's put on a restaurant!" The couple of times we've said something to the young, energetic servers, they've replied "Um, we have no control over the kitchen" and "Um, well it's not like a real restaurant, you know".
Of course, it's unacceptable, but they don't know that, and apparently neither do the hordes of yuppies who wait in line for tables.
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I wonder what would have happened if Bryan would have said that he was 21...would they have asked for ID...would Bryan have showed his fake ID (if he has one, as those of us may or may not have done back in the day
). When I was underage, if I was served at a restaurant, bar or liquor store than it was a victory, but if not then the establishment was following the law. I was served countless times at countless restaurants, fine dining or beer and wings. Either a place enforced that law or they did not. I recently dined at Houstons with a friend's son ( age 19 or 20) and he was asked for ID and he gave him his fake one. To watch the panic in his eyes as his fake ID was taken to the back and thoughts of not being able to get into the bars back in college was classic . The ID was returned and a beer was served.When I was 19 I went on vacation with my parents, and took a friend's ID. One night I was having a drink at the bar before dinner, when my dad came in and joined me. The bartender asked me, "Another one, Dave?", except that's of course not my name. My dad simply didn't blink an eye, or care. Just a touching remembrance.
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I wouldn't cook it frozen. And I'd say that you'll get better results if you let it defrost in the fridge for a few days.
I'm glad I read your post all the way through, because I started to get horrified at the beginning - I hate frozen meat too. My mother lived down the street from a butcher, and still shopped once a month for meat (no, she didn't work or anything like that), and she'd buy a month's worth of meat, freeze it, and then, just like Gifted Gourmet's mom, drop the frozen steaks into boiling water when the dinner hour neared.
Anyway, there are reasons for not cooking frozen meat (can't remember them now), and reasons for defrosting large cuts of meat in the fridge (can't remember those either now). Glad to hear that everybody's okay, and good luck!
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If I recall correctly the base of the discussion was high end restaurants do not acknowledge the drinking age in New York
I didn't see anybody say that.
I think that is exactly what Bryan said, if not in so many words. He said that in his years of dining experience in New York's finer eateries, he's never before been refused service
On a closer re-reading of the thread...
Bryan's underaged now, and he's been drinking alcohol for years?
Hmmm....
Random Kosher Questions
in Food Traditions & Culture
Posted
So my first thought (after "I remember that") was, "so, why didn't they just read the label?", and then I seemed to remember that putting all the ingredients on a food product label may be a somewhat recent thing? Did it start (by law, of course) at some point in the last 60 years?