Fat Guy

I think in single-establishment, standalone restaurants it's most common for managers to come up through the ranks, or to come from other similar restaurants where they came up through the ranks. Whereas, in hotel restaurants (e.g., Four Seasons) and chain restaurants (e.g., Darden) you're more likely to see managers with formal education who came up through the hospitality management programs. Indeed, if you go to a career event for, say, the University of Delaware Hotel, Restaurant and Institutional Management program, you'll see the recruiters from the major hotel and restaurant-chain operators there, and pretty much nobody from a single-establishment, standalone restaurant.

I'm not sure the EU is going to be much help. In general, the EU as a governing body is in favor of more stringent pasteurization requirements. Public opinion in Europe may oppose that, and individual EU nations' governments -- especially those of France and Italy -- may oppose it too, but the EU as a body is right there with the US government in being an enemy of unpasteurized cheese. I'm not sure the article cited really establishes a new FDA push against unpasteurized cheeses, though. What the article seems to indicate -- though quite speculatively -- is that brie-type cheeses may be at risk of tighter regulation under a new set of "risk profiles." These cheeses have always been the borderline cases. I doubt they're going to be able to establish risk for hard cheeses, though. While it's worth fighting the fight for unpasteurized cheese, the reality may very well be that pasteurization is the inescapable future. So it may make sense for producers and consortium-type groups to follow the example that some of the French companies are setting, by devoting their resources to figuring out ways to make great cheeses with heat-treated milk.

Sam, is it fair to summarize your position as being that it's simply impossible to make "a terrific pizza crust" or "a superior pizza crust" in a stainless deck oven? And if so, what would you say is the minimum oven temperature for "a terrific pizza crust" or "a superior pizza crust"?

Sam, my contention has been that it could be possible to bake terrific crust at 650 degrees in a stainless deck oven, but that pizzerias simply are not exploring that option. You responded by saying that 650 degrees is "a few hundred degrees F below what you can get in a wood- or coal-fired oven." It seemed to me that you were saying it's impossible to do good crust at 650 degrees because it's "several hundred degrees" below the needed temperatures. That sounded wrong to me based on everything I've heard about pizza oven temperatures, so I looked up some temperatures and what I found was that temperatures in the 700s are common. That didn't seem like "a few hundred degrees" to me. Now, you can nitpick those sources all you want (though I'd point out that all the same nits can be picked with your claims to know the temperatures being used at New York pizzerias), but it seems pretty clear that it's possible to bake great crust at 800 degrees -- or 150 degrees over 650 -- and highly likely that it's possible to do so in the 700s. So it's hard to imagine that a resourceful baker couldn't do some good work at 650 degrees, or even 680. Indeed, it's possible to bake better crust in a consumer-level oven at 500 degrees F than you can get at almost any stainless deck oven pizzeria in New York, which should make pretty clear that the issue is not so much lack of capacity but lack of trying. There may be good reasons for not trying: maybe there's not enough demand for the product that would result. But I wouldn't be so quick to write off 650-degree ovens as too cool.

People gravitate towards the familiar. Two reviews that happened to run on the same day came at that point from two different angles. The relationship is obvious.

Danyelle Freeman makes a related point this week in her review of Upper East Side old-timer Elio's:

Plenty of wood- and coal-oven places are baking in the 700s or even lower. Here's a newspaper piece on wood-oven pizzerias in the Seattle-Tacoma area that lists the temperatures and cooking times for each place under review. If the information is reliable, Trattoria Grazie on that list is baking pies in two minutes at 650 degrees F. I assume there are some issues with wood beyond just the temperature reading -- for example the top-down heat from the roof of a curved oven -- but these numbers nonetheless indicate to me that there's a lot of potential with a 650-degree stainless oven. Here also is a page from Forno Bravo, an oven manufacturer, that indicates temperatures in the 700s are common ("There are many VPN-certified pizzerias baking in the 700ºs.")

I think the capabilities of the standard stainless pizza oven, e.g. the Baker's Pride Y-series deck oven have not seriously been explored by a significant number of New York City pizzerias. A Baker's Pride Y-series (or the equivalent Blodgett) can maintain 650 degrees F, which should be sufficient to bake a terrific crust (you can even get one configured with fire-brick hearth decks). That's a bit lower than what the coal- and wood-fired ovens do, but it's in the ballpark. So I don't necessarily think it's a simple limitation of the oven. Rather, I just think most pizzerias aren't bothering to turn the ovens up to that temperature. I think they're working down in the 500 degree F neighborhood. There's a place on the Upper East Side, called Pintaile's, where I noticed they do fire the oven to the maximum temperature setting, and they form the thinnest crust I've ever seen in a slice shop. I won't go so far as to say the pizza is fabulous -- there are other flaws that come into play like a fundamentally poor dough -- but there are fabulous elements. It's a good demonstration of some of the possibilities.

I was interested in the average size, as well as the standard deviations, because in the original topic I referenced the suggestion was made that an 80-seat restaurant was outside the norm and that the average was 40. So I was trying to see if, as an empirical matter, the average is closer to 40 or closer to 80. Also, just a point of nomenclature: I'd suggest that covers and seats are not synonymous for the purposes of this discussion, because not all Michelin three-star restaurants are single-sitting restaurants. In New York City, for example, the Michelin three-star restaurants Per Se, Jean Georges and Le Bernardin all turn at least some of their tables. So Per Se could have 64 seats but do 96 covers in an evening.

It's not really a fair comparison. KFC sucks. Popeye's not only sells very good fried chicken, but actually sells better fried chicken than most single-establishment "mom and pop" places. You have to go very high up the single-establishment food chain to get better fried chicken than Popeye's makes. The only fried-chicken chain I've been to that I think is competitive with Popeye's is Bojangles'. That only applies if you happen to live in the Southeast or Middle Atlantic, though.

There are actually three Nedick's in New York City now. I was pretty young when Nedick's disappeared sometime in the late 1970s, however I did eat there several times as a kid. Based on my weak memories and the stronger memories of a few people I've checked in with about this, the hot dogs are pretty much the same as back in the day, but the orange drink is now awful. There's also the expanded menu of American regional hot dogs -- I haven't tried anything from that menu yet, but will eventually I suppose. The Chicago hot dog is Vienna Beef, which is a good sign. I wouldn't necessarily call Nedick's a New York hot dog, though. Despite its popularity in New York, I'd still categorize it as a New England hot dog. There's not a whole lot of difference, but the split-and-buttered bun just isn't a New York thing. It's a New England thing. I'm pretty sure it was and is a beef hot dog, though. Also, while New York-style frankfurters are beef by default, I don't think that's necessarily unique to New York. Chicago-style hot dogs are also usually beef. Ditto, I believe, for Orange Julius.

Does anybody know the number of seats at the average Michelin three-star restaurant? On this topic Jon Tseng estimated 40. That sounds low to me. I'm thinking more in the neighborhood of 70, just based on unscientific, casual observations of the ones I've been to. Anybody have hard data per restaurant?

I'd be interested to see a list of the number of seats at every Michelin three-star restaurant. I wonder how that could be assembled. [Edited to add: started a separate topic on that issue]

I fundamentally disagree with the premise. I'm not talking about the stars. For all I care, Peter Luger can get one star or zero stars because the nomenclature of stars makes no sense when applied to real steakhouses. However, while I haven't been to Peter Luger as many times recently as Frank Bruni has, I've been there plenty and I don't buy into the notion of a decline. Peter Luger has always been inconsistent, or at least it has for the past 20 or so years. Peter Luger has always overcooked plenty of the steaks. It has always been possible to get better and worse steaks. And the service has always been problematic. In other words, Frank Bruni's complaints are nothing new. They're the same complaints people have made about Peter Luger all my life. For as long as I can remember it has been trendy to say Peter Luger isn't as good as it was back in the day. Were it true every time anybody said it, Peter Luger would be pretty awful by now. But it's not. Peter Luger still serves the best steak in America and perhaps the world.

This sounds like a valuable workshop. I think chefs have been slow to pick up on the distinction between sous-vide cooking and low-temperature cooking. They can overlap, however they are not synonymous. I hope the chefs who attended this workshop will start a trend and stop using the term sous vide as a synonym for low-temperature cooking. Was Winston (manufacturer of the CVap) somehow involved in the presentation? I'm wondering because it seems odd to focus the workshop on this one device, when there are other low-temperature cooking methods that are also interesting (such as using oil instead of water in a recirculating bath, as recently discussed in Food Arts). Perhaps it was just a question of time limits and the need for focus, though.

I'm not really sure the boiled (I'll say boiled for poached/dirty-water/whatever) versus grilled (griddled, really) distinction matters from the standpoint of definitions. Whether you get a boiled or grilled frankfurter in New York, if you've gone to one of the better places then chances are it's still a Sabrett. Nor do the standard toppings vary: whether you go to a street cart or Papaya King, it's sauerkraut, sweet onions, mustard and, reluctantly, ketchup that are the primary options. You can also get both boiled and grilled frankfurters in Chicago.

I think you have to break it down into two issues: 1- the frankfurter itself, and 2- the garnishes (toppings, bun). From what I've seen, in Chicago the classic frankfurter is usually Vienna Beef or a brand that mimics that style. It's relatively light in flavor, and usually served in a fat size. In New York the classic frankfurter is in the Sabrett style, usually in a narrow size. It's all beef but has a spicier profile, and the snap of natural casing. Then there are the toppings. Probably the reason New York-style frankfurters are spicier is that they're more the main event and less the canvas for a lot of toppings. Classic Chicago-style frankfurters have a ton of stuff on them by New York standards. Whereas, the New York frankfurter is a minimalist creation, with the traditional toppings being sauerkraut, sweet onions (usually either/or), and Gulden's-style brown mustard. Also, New York hot dogs are usually served on a plain bun, and Chicago on a poppyseed bun.

Over the past 15 or so years, we've bought many dishes. Some of them are still with us 15 years later. They've shown themselves to be virtually indestructible: they don't chip when stacked and knocked, their surfaces aren't affected by the dishwasher, they can survive the occasional hard clank. Others have lasted only a little while: they've quickly chipped, deteriorated or otherwise lost their utility or beauty. There seems to be no association with price or vendor. I have a set of Williams-Sonoma plates that have been absolutely amazing survivors and look as new today as when they were purchased; and I have others from Williams-Sonoma that have not held up well at all. I have stuff from top brands that sucks, and stuff from no-name brands that has been great. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. And I can't seem to tell by visual examination of the product how well it will hold up. Is there a way to tell? Are there particular signs to look for, positive or negative? What's the deal?

To me, my recent Ray's-of-Greenwich-Village experience was surprising because it exceeded my expectations for the slice. I certainly remember a period when Ray's pizza declined in quality. But I'm wondering if they did at least a partial reversal at some point, because the slice I just had was a lot more enjoyable than I'd have imagined it would be. Not that the cheese was, or ever was, top of the line. But it was pleasant enough. If anybody is walking around that area, please do grab a slice and let us know your take on it. I'm definitely going to do a repeat, for a reality check. Back when Ray's was still Ray's, a second branch opened up three blocks from my childhood home on the Upper West Side. It was called "Ray's of Greenwich Village," it was located on the northeast corner of 72nd and Columbus and it was, I believe, the only other branch of the 11th Street/Sixth Avenue store. It didn't last all that long, but I thought the pizza there was a faithful reproduction of the downtown shop's offering.

There's an essay on Slate.com today by Paul Levy titled "Food, Inglorious Food: My decision to opt out of the macho food-writing movement." I think he gets a few things wrong -- some of his examples from Buford and Gopnik do not particularly support his thesis -- but it's an interesting overview of the transition from feminine to masculine food writing.

I think this comment sort of crosses over categories. Totonno's and Grimaldi's are not slice shops, and while you can get a slice at Patsy's it doesn't follow the mold of a slice shop. Those are whole-pie, brick-oven places and have never really been in the same category as the slice shops. Patsy's, incidentally, has for awhile not been Italian-American-owned. The original Patsy's in East Harlem is owned by an Albanian from Kosovo named Frank Brija. Likewise, Nick Angelis, who owns various well-regarded pizzerias, is Greek. So I think it's entirely possible for non-Italian-Americans to do good pizza. Whether they choose to is a different story. Di Fara is an interesting case, because it really is a slice shop, but it has gone through a transformation in recent years. A few years ago, I would have said that Di Fara was a good example of what a lot of the best slice shops all over the city used to be like. But ever since being championed in the press and attracting a citywide audience, Di Fara has upped its game to a more gourmet level, and is now unlike any other pizzeria. It's a unique admixture of an old-style New York slice shop, a nouvelle trendy pizzeria, and a psych ward.

I fundamentally agree that the slice at the average slice shop used to be a lot better. Some thoughts on your theories, and a couple of theories of my own: I think the decline of NYC pizza well predates the arrival of Domino's. If anything I think the causation is the other way around: the chains got a toehold when pizza got bad enough for the chains not to seem so bad. Again, chronologically, New York has always been heavily populated by young out-of-towners. They have been pouring in for centuries. In addition, the selling proposition of the chains isn't -- at least in the NYC context -- the quality of the pies. It's the consumer experience. Domino's is consistent and delivery is quick and efficient, performed by uniformed employees carrying "heatwave" bags. You can order online. The stores keep your information in a computer so you only have to give your phone number when you order. Order-fulfillment accuracy is extremely high. There are coupons available. Whereas, when you order from most single-establishment pizzerias, the ordering and delivery experience is unpredictable and often unpleasant. This hasn't been my casual observation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, the Upper West Side, there seem to me to be just as many or more single-establishment pizzerias as there were when I was a kid. Indeed, several of the same ones are around -- they're just not as good. When I was a kid in the 1970s there were already plenty of pizzerias owned by non-Italians, but the pizza was still good. I don't believe the ethnicity of a restaurant owner or cook means very much. Anyway, it's not like the pizza at the average New York slice shop has much to do with Italy. I remember it always being that way. Even at the best pizza places in my neighborhood, you had to pick your time of day carefully, and there was plenty of variation day to day. I think the old mafia has been replaced by the new organized crime of Wisconsin pizza cheese. If I had to suggest the single most important cause of the decline of the average New York slice, it would be the spread of cheap cheese. Wisconsin pizza cheese was cheaper and easier to use -- albeit flavorless -- than the mozzarella products pizzerias were working with before. It was hard to resist, especially since everybody else was adopting it. Also, I think toppings and the economics thereof have contributed to the ruination of average slice-shop pizza. When I was a kid, there were plain pies only in the display case, and it was possible for a pizzeria to be profitable just by selling a lot of those pies. If you wanted a topping, there were a few available and they'd put a topping on a slice and heat the slice. Now there are all these elaborate pies, mostly premade, and that's where the money is. That money is necessary to support increased rent, labor costs, etc. The business model of a slice shop today can't depend on selling high-quality plain pies. Rather, it depends on selling slices with toppings at a significantly higher price. Plain pies are simply the support mechanisms for the toppings. They don't have to be good.

My copy arrived today and I thought it was strong work. When I saw the cover I thought, "I wonder how they'll handle Alinea?" After all, Saveur's "authenticity" mission, at least as Saveur has historically interpreted it, does not exactly square with molecular gastronomy. Peter Meehan's piece on Alinea tries to make the case that Chicago's industrial food culture provides historical context for Alinea, and that would indeed be a Saveur-esque explanation, but I don't buy it.

I did enjoy it, especially visiting vin jaune producers. But the best restaurant in the Jura is Jean-Paul Jeunet in Arbois, and he's a great example of a chef who couples tradition with innovation. Moreover, I don't think anybody in the Jura thinks Jean-Paul Jeunet's inventiveness is a threat to tradition. All over France, there are examples of traditional and contemporary cuisine coexisting. And there are examples of the same all over Japan, India, China and most anyplace else with a great traditional cuisine. Yet Italy seems determined not to join the club. Maybe it's in part because too many people are confusing McDonald's and fast food with the artistry of people like Adria and Gagnaire. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Got a heads up on a forthcoming barbecue place from a publicist today. This is supposed to be a December opening: