Vetri's Osteria

[Vadouvan]

I would say that the prices would be considered "High" in most cases if it wasnt for the fact that there is already an established status quo of paying those prices for mediocre dishes all over the place. If one factors in the point that this is handmade food being made in not handmade quantities, it requires a great deal of labor and labor cost.

Considering also that this isnt food that 85% of the public can cook themselves in any reasonable amount of time, it simply is a bargain.

I have always said that the price of food in restaurants that are good reflect the fact that besides outright "deliciousness" it is a service you cannot provide yourself.......and in this case no one else in Phliiy can provide for you according to DAgordon.

Routinely Italian food gets a bad rap when you hear the quote "It's a bit pricy for Italian".

That statement ignores the depth of passion, patience and artisanal quality of true italian cooking simple because people have gotten used to paying the prices of all 15 mediocre Italian BYO's that serve the same food in the city.

Osteria *even* manages to avoid the "retail outlet" menu items that people rave about and pay for willingly.

In the interest of making this point, what I am about to say isnt about trashing the following restaurants I am about to mention, it is merely to illustrate my point.

TRIA....50 % of the menu are retail items. Cheeses, Sweet cheese condiments, relishes, ect, ect.

AMADA......as far as I know doesnt make any of it's cured meats, buy and slice, cheese with truffle honey, olives......

Before anyone get's thier panties in a bunch, I am not saying Amada and Tria are not good restaurants, what I am saying is the "Italian Bias" is always active but people dont figure that Michaud is curing lardo and making sopresatta from scratch. Marc's making your pizza and it is a true artisan menu.

*That* makes it a bargain.

Do you realise Vetri's Pizza is 3 to 4 dollars more than a domino's pizza of the same price.........except liiiiiiight years better.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Capaneus]

Huh. Well, what are the rest of the prices like? I was wondering why we weren't getting any in the early posts...

And what are folks drinking with all this? Barbaresco and Barolo for $15 and $18 per glass isn't crazy pricing, depending on the bottle, but not to offer a dolcetto or some other inexpensive red alternative strikes me as odd. What does the rest of the list look like?

[Vadouvan]

Nice Avatar, you should change it to the national complainers society....

[philadining]

Pizzas range from $15 for the Margherita to $22 for the focaccina, with most somewhere in the middle, 17-18 dollars. They're not huge, but indeed hand-crafted and made with fine ingredients.

But it does bring up an interesting point: even many New Yorkers were taken aback by the similar prices for similarly-scaled pizze at Una Pizza Napolitana in the East Village, despite the similar justification of it being an artisan product. So how much is too much for a pizza? It's another one of those personal value assessments that's not going to have a single answer. It's probably too early for me to say for sure where it fits in my value scale. As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't swooning over the Osteria's Margherita, while I was over a similarly simple pizza at Una Pizza Napolitana. (But then that's ALL they do up there, they're maniacs that make, like, 4 types of pizza for a few hours, a few days a week. It better be freaking good... ) The other types of pizza that went by me at Osteria looked awesome, so I'm eager to try those. And I'm OK paying in the mid-teens for them if they taste as good as they look and smell!

Primi:

Tripe is $10, there's a salad with anchovies for $10, the salumi plate is $14 (and awesome...) that platter of fried things was $14, which might be a little high for three golfball-sized treats, but they were really good, especially the arancino.

Pastas are all $16

Secondi range from $24 for the braised ribs and the chicken, to $30 for the fish stew. Then there's the dry-aged steak for two at $60. I don't know what the specials were running.

I'm not sure about the wine prices, I'm not sure that's even finalized. Folks, please report back!

After one visit, I thought it was a pretty good bargain for what we got. I'm going back...

Edited February 21, 2007 by philadining (log)

[Capaneus]

Nice Avatar, you should change it to the national complainers society....

←

I would, but their wine list is extortionate.

[Andrew Fenton]

I have always said that the price of food in restaurants that are good reflect the fact that besides outright "deliciousness" it is a service you cannot provide yourself.......and in this case no one else in Phliiy can provide for you according to DAgordon.

Routinely Italian food gets a bad rap when you hear the quote "It's a bit pricy for Italian".

That statement ignores the depth of passion, patience and artisanal quality of true italian cooking simple because people have gotten used to paying the prices of all 15 mediocre Italian BYO's that serve the same food in the city.

V, I completely agree with you that Italian food in Philadelphia (as in most of the country) has fallen victim to the soft bigotry of low expectations. Mostly it isn't all that good. Even I-- a good, not great cook-- can do better than 85% of it; which is why I've pretty much stopped going to Italian restaurants.

So I'm delighted to see a restaurant like Osteria open, I'm going there this weekend, and I couldn't be more excited. $18 for a really good pizza is totally reasonable, as far as I'm concerned. Most of the other dishes, if they're as good as everybody says, seem fairly priced as well. And $10 for a nice bowl of stewed tripe is a bargain.

That said, $5 for an arancino is a little bit extortionate! That's the equivalent of a $35 cheesesteak. I'm sure it's really good. But it's no bargain...

[dagordon]

Yeah, now that I've had some distance from last night's meal.. I think it's quite possible that it was the best restaurant meal I've ever had in Philly.

If Osteria is able to consistently put out food of the quality that we had last night, it is going to be a very big deal.

[wkl]

"Then there's the dry-aged steak for two at $60. "

anyone know where the beef is sourced?

[Vadouvan]

In the the mathematical sense, developing a price vs value graph for the food at Osteria is flawed reasoning.

I just ate there again tonight, my 4th meal in 5 days and after basically going through the whole menu, I can tell you that while some things might appear to be "overpriced" (not my opinion), some other things also appear to be underpriced.

I had the Candele with boar ragu tonight which was $16.

$16 may seem pricy for a bowl of pasta but again referrring to my "Italian bias theory", this isnt the $12 Penne with Vodka creme sauce that people rave about in town and is being served by restaurants owned by Albanians with mexican cooks.

Before you call me a racist, here me out......

Italian food made with intergrity isnt any cheaper than any other cuisine.

The biggest problem here......and I quote THOMAS KELLER is that "Americans are increasingly receptive to mediocrity"......unquote.

Direct your hate mail to Per se...columbus circle.

In any case the food again was outstanding, not everything in every restaurant is great but great meals only happen when great food meets people who "get it".

People as a whole dont get "italian food" in philly simply because "Italian-American" has come to define the expectation.

Similarly the worst absolutely horrible dim sum you can find in Hong Kong makes everything in chinatown taste like rummaging through a dumpster.

It isnt about elitism and saying everyone has to travel abroad to "get it", the point is that chipping away at authenticity without any rational or factual basis as to what is in fact authentic is bullshit.

To some degree that is what osteria is trying to achieve.

Trattorias and Osterias in Italy cook for love, they dont need 6 cooks, 8 servers, 3 managers, 2 bartenders, 3 dishwashers, 2 food runners and perhaps investors to pay back and valet parkers.

We as Americans routinely make these silly comparisons but ignore the costs of running a restaurant properly without which we would bitch about the "bad service".

Good service requires to 20 to 25 employees above.

Those 25 employees above means the food isnt going to cost the same as it would if you made it yourself at home.

Get over it.

We *are* being ripped of in several places but not at restaurants that use artisanal products and processes to prepare our food.

People pay $3.25 for 8 oz of Chai Latte, 3oz of premixed, presweetened shelf stable tea mixed with skim milk and.........Whoaaaa.......expensive Steam.

Total cost 25 cents max.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Vadouvan]

Cotechino with fried egg and polenta...

[Capaneus]

Cotechino with fried egg and polenta...

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Purdy pitchure. Keep hangin' wif the Dinin' Man, you might get some skills yet, youngster!

On prices... Plenty to disagree about on general principles, but prices at Osteria seem about where I'd expect them to be. A couple of things might be a bit off, like the arancini, but they opened a few days ago, prices will shift up and down. Given the price structure, I think we'll see the pastas bumped up a couple of dollars early in the game.

As usual for me, my assessment on "affordability" will depend in large measure on what kind of wine list they come up with. I hope Marc (and Jeff Benjamin? Is he in on this one?) find room for a few values in there.

[Vadouvan]

Admit it Capaneus, you are a Byowhore.....

Marc and Jeff are partners.

Sadly capaneus bad tidings from today's weekly....

Check out "Next Drinking Trend" and "Next Hit Restaurant".........

Edited February 21, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Vadouvan]

V, I completely agree with you that Italian food in Philadelphia (as in most of the country) has fallen victim to the soft bigotry of low expectations. Mostly it isn't all that good. Even I-- a good, not great cook-- can do better than 85% of it; which is why I've pretty much stopped going to Italian restaurants.

So I'm delighted to see a restaurant like Osteria open, I'm going there this weekend, and I couldn't be more excited. $18 for a really good pizza is totally reasonable, as far as I'm concerned. Most of the other dishes, if they're as good as everybody says, seem fairly priced as well. And $10 for a nice bowl of stewed tripe is a bargain.

That said, $5 for an arancino is a little bit extortionate! That's the equivalent of a $35 cheesesteak. I'm sure it's really good. But it's no bargain...

Mr Fenton, this will be a similar veined restaurant in NYC.

The prices seem to be toe to toe with Osteria.

http://nymag.com/listings/restaurant/morandi/menu1.html

Edited February 21, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Diann]

yo Pedro -- I ordered a glass of less-expensive wine (a valpolicella, maybe?) and it was $8 or $10. Seriously, I thought the wine prices were pretty reasonable (two-page wine list on opening night, lots of wines in the $40 or $50 range)... just go, check it out. You'll enjoy it.

[Andrew Fenton]

Mr Fenton, this will be a similar veined restaurant in NYC.

The prices seem to be toe to toe with Osteria.

http://nymag.com/listings/restaurant/morandi/menu1.html

And coda alla vaccinara on Monday nights! I swoon...

[Vadouvan]

And coda alla vaccinara on Monday nights! I swoon...

Andrew Can you imagine.....how good that could be.

It will end up being the "Italian balthazar".

back to philly......Pedro I had $8 vodka cocktails.

Havent you learned your lesson.....

Restaurants open prices are low, drinks are cheap, they get reviewed, get the bells, prices go up.

[matthewj]

Honestly.

I really do not know why such a fuss is being made over prices. I mean come on V is right. The prices not only match the food but in many instances look like they are a real bargain. Braised rib for 24 dollars. $6.00 a # with 30-40% reduction in loss. You are looking at a 10.00 - 12.00 plate cost just for the piece of meat. I am sure he is using the Italian single zero strong flour. That gives an extra crunch for the pizza dough. That flour alone could warrant a $18 pizza.

Everyone should stop bitching about prices. Be happy that there is a real restaurant that people can go to in Philadelphia, and stop analyzing the wine list of a bistro. It is just arrogant.

This kind of talk of price balking at good food is a lot of the reasons that many good chefs are cautious to open a place.

V is also correct the "celebration of the ultimate average."

Now go to starbucks and get a 12.00 lait. That's a real bargin

[Andrew Fenton]

Everyone should stop bitching about prices.  Be happy that there is a real restaurant that people can go to in Philadelphia, and stop analyzing the wine list of a bistro.  It is just arrogant. 

Let's see. You're saying "you'll take what you're given, and you'll LIKE it." And you're accusing other people of being arrogant? Wow.

Look: I think a couple of things are clear. First, price matters to people; the question of value for money is a real one, and it's worth discussing. Second, the raves here make it clear that Osteria delivers that value. I'm looking forward to trying it.

[wkl]

what's wrong with analyzing the wine list? we analyze the food,service, decor,etc.

not sure where your coming from on that point.

[Jeff L]

The biggest problem here......and I quote THOMAS KELLER    is that "Americans are increasingly receptive to mediocrity"......unquote.

People as a whole dont get "italian food" in philly simply because "Italian-American" has come to define the expectation.

Similarly the worst absolutely horrible dim sum you can find in Hong Kong makes everything in chinatown taste like rummaging through a dumpster.

It isnt about elitism and saying everyone has to travel abroad to "get it", the point is that chipping away at authenticity without any rational or factual basis as to what is in fact authentic is bullshit.

Trattorias and Osterias in Italy cook for love, they dont need 6 cooks, 8 servers, 3 managers, 2 bartenders, 3 dishwashers, 2 food runners and perhaps investors to pay back and valet parkers.

We as Americans routinely make these silly comparisons but ignore the costs of running a restaurant properly without which we would bitch about the "bad service".

Good service requires to 20 to 25 employees above.

Those 25 employees above means the food isnt going to cost the same as it would if you made it yourself at home.

←

V, I agree completely with your points. The differences between dining in say Paris, Provence or Tuscany really zero in on the passion of the chef, local ingredients, and commitment to quality. This is not to say that we don't have a few of these type places here, but they are the exception rather than the rule. In the smaller places (generally mom and pops) that I tend to enjoy, there are usually just a few employees and service is nicely paced - not rushed as we tend to have here. This speaks to European food culture and their slow food approach in general.

You are dead on regarding Italian-American or Chinese American food dominating the local scene and most of the country. It indeed has become the standard to which most American subscibe/aspire to in their dining choices. I am sure that the explosion of chains is in direct response to this.

It can be that way here if enough people clamor for it as evidenced apparently by Marc's new place. Speaking for myself, I would gladly pay more for a meal that is simply not the same thing as a dozen other places, byo or not.

[Vadouvan]

Good points JeffL....

It's Pathetic, absolutely pathetic that this country can sustain multiple chains like Maggiano's, Carraba, Olive Garden, Bucca di Beppo ect ...ect which are basically creations of corporate twits in the midwest whose only experience of Italy was aboard a 15 story cruise ship.

Its just a parody.....check this out....

There is even a franchise-gator........thats rights folks you heard it here first.

Complete with your own bullshit quasi-Italian name.....

http://www.franchisegator.com/italian_rest...CFQJWgQodlmtFhg

It's all garbage but unfortunately, it's shaping peoples expectations into solid mediocrity.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[matthewj]

sorry V but maybe I am not as elloquate as you. I say take it for what it is. Or not. I never said that other people are arrogant. Just the comments. A bistro is a bistro. Take it for what it is, or not. Just my opinion.

[Jeff L]

http://www.franchisegator.com/italian_rest...CFQJWgQodlmtFhg

It's all garbage but unfortunately, it's shaping peoples expectations into solid mediocrity.

←

Just click on the link for Jimano's Pizza Franchise and take a look at their pizza if you think V is kidding. Who would eat that thing?

Most people don't get why I (and many others on this forum) would travel over an hour or two to eat DiFara's or Spumoni Gardens pizza. To me it's worth a little inconvenience to sample something truly great, an artisinal product, be it cheese from Hendricks Farms, or driving to Berks Co. for some amazing pork products from Country Time Farm. I do it all the time because I always appreciate people who have taken their passions and translated them into amazingly high quality food or food products. My question is, given that you have the time occasionally, why wouldn't you want to do it too?

[Vadouvan]

because food isnt as valued as other seemingly less important things.

In truth JeffL it's just a matter of priorities.

Face it, a lot people are deeply in debt for consumer goods that become obsolete in 18 months but have no interest in upgrading what they put in thier bodies.

Now that Walmart sells organic food, it's all good.

The beauty of what osteria does is that for so long, Marc's passion and dedication came at steep prices, justifiable but steep nonetheless.

I have eaten at Vetri once since it's been open.

A good meal but you have to spread out those expensive meals.

Osteria is to Philadelphia what Bouchon is to Napa.

Thus having access to that level of cooking at those prices is totally worth it.

Remember even the Starr empire tried to do an Italian restaurant and it tanked from day one.

For gods sake people rave about the food at D'angelos for the same price........

sorry V but maybe I am not as elloquate as you. I say take it for what it is. Or not. I never said that other people are arrogant. Just the comments. A bistro is a bistro. Take it for what it is, or not. Just my opinion.

Matt, I have no problem with your prose or statement, I tend not to interprete passionate postings as anger....besides people who PM me to correct my spelling are 86'ed

[MarketStEl]

Matt, I have no problem with your prose or statement, I tend not to interprete passionate postings as anger....besides people who PM me to correct my spelling are 86'ed

←

I think I've said this before, but you cook for a living and I write for a living. We do well at our respective callings. Where we are "amateurs," it's presumptuous to have our work in that category judged by the standards of the pros.

(Although there was a time, back before the 'Net, when it was assumed everyone ought to know proper spelling, punctuation and grammar. Some people had secretaries who knew that stuff for them. The rest of us just didn't write all that much after leaving school.)

Back to the main topic: I think that the only people who would consider those pizzas expensive are those used to standard pizza parlor pricing, where the more you pay, the bigger the pie you get. Judging from those pictures, you're paying for the quality, not the quantity, and with that as a guide, those prices strike me as reasonable. (Having said that, I now need to order pizza from this place in order to determine whether this now makes Tacconelli's a steal.)

Osteria is at Broad and Fairmount, right? Pizza Clubbers: Should we make it our third stop on March 3rd?

As for the question of value: Pardon me if you feel offended, for no offense was meant, but it is an issue for more than a few people. I know of at least one lurker on this board who posts to some other boards I frequent who confided to me that the reason he lurks rather than posts here is partly because he feels that on his (paltry) income, he can't afford any of the things we're talking about. For these people, who love good food nonetheless, even the Good Everyday Eateries I wonder aloud about elsewhere in this forum may not be affordable everyday experiences, but rather occasional treats. And certainly there are others for whom this is not the case but who must nonetheless watch their budgets. Don't they deserve good food too?

Yes, the higher the labor costs, and the more costly the ingredients, the more your restaurant meal will cost, and I understand your point about our expectations for Italian food being conditioned by decades of eating out in so-so Italian-American restaurants. And I especially understand your point about Starbucks in particular and coffee shops like it in general. But I've had really great espresso elsewhere for less than I pay for burnt coffee at *$$, so I figure it should be possible to have really good Italian fare for not a lot of money. That said, relative to what I understand a meal at Vetri costs, this place looks like it actually fits that criteria.

Now, the day that a soul food restaurant charges these prices is the day I know that society has come unhinged.