To Lie or Not to Lie

[markk]

If you went into a store and asked for a batch of an item when you returned, "with no trans fats", and the shopkeeper posted on eGullet the dilemma of what do do - to sell you a regular batch and not tell you that it had trans fats in it, or to tell you that that was the only way she could make it for practical reasons, and lose your sale, so what should she do? - what would you have advised her?

I'll let K8 answer that for herself, but you're twisting the issue a bit, and she acknowledged as much. So did another poster.

If a customer asks if something's vegan/organic/trans-fat free/has nuts in it, that's much different than asking if something's 'fresh' or not. If you want to know if it's 'fresh,' that's a preference. A hope. A wish. And until they know the logistics of the operation it's not really something for the customer to debate.

If they're really that concerned about freshness and quality, it's fairly easy to get the big picture of how most commercial food is made, from the Food Network's factory tour show to the Internet.

If you ask if something is vegan, free of trans fats or has nuts in it, that's a whole other question altogether, and one that should be taken seriously and answered honestly.

But experience has shown that the interrogators of the world are, by and large, fickle and cheap. They come in just twice a year, because your cake costs $x more than the sheet cake at the grocery store that they usually buy, but Aunt Nellie's coming to town and they want something special, so they expect you to treat them to a song and dance and lots of personalized attention when they grace you with their presence. They want the quality product (for once) to impress and expect that you'll recognize the 'favor' they're doing you.

Again, if you have religious/nutritional/allergic questions, I've got all the time in the world for you and respect you for asking. But if it's an esoteric debate or because you want to feel special and/or feel entitled to special treatment just because you're you (and you're not a regular customer), that's another matter entirely.

Lastly, when you're baking from scratch it takes more time to put out a quality product, period. There's less time to shoot the shit so time is at a premium. It becomes a question of 'do I spend ten minutes with this person (and the one after that and the one after that) answering questions because they didn't get enough attention as children, or do I get more pies/cupcakes/bars out?' It's a pretty easy answer.

So my question to you is this: let's assume you're a regular customer. You know me and I know the names of your pets and kids, what you did for the Super Bowl, etc. Would you accept the fact that the cookie/pastry/pie you came in for as part of your regular stop isn't out today because I just spent twenty minutes describing the minutiae of professional baking to someone who comes in twice a year? What about the day after that? And the day after that? How long before you'd quit coming because the production schedule's so erratic that you can't count on the usual items being available for sale?

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I genuniely hadn't meant to twist any words, and I hadn't meant to keep the baker from doing his or her work. When I say I'd like to ask the owner or the baker a question, I'm frequently told "he's busy baking in the back, can I relay your question to him?", and it's fine with me if somebody goes back and shouts out my question to him and brings me back the answer. I appreciate that he's busy doing what he has to do; I have that in my own work (I don't take phone calls for that reason - people with such questions can only reach me by e-mails, which I can answer at 3 am when I've knocked off, if I need to.)

It was the broader concept of not telling people things that are deemed to be "trade-only" knowledge, or deciding on my behalf that I can't deal with the answer.

So again, if the customer comes in and says she'd like 8 somethings "with no trans fats" when she returns (to parallel the original post), I'm curious if you all apply the same logic and suggest giving her the standard item with the trans fats, or if you advocate teaching her that making them without them would shorten their shelf-life and double the cost, and letting her make an informed decision, or if the sale of the 8 somethings is more important.

And I think you left out the category of customer that I usually am - I go into a shop for the first time (well, everybody has to at some point), and if I get products that I like with ingredients that I like, and I get my questions answered honestly, I will become a regular customer, and if I meet the owner late in the day when he or she is finished cooking or baking, we'll get to know about each other's kids over time. But that relationship has to start sometime.

[FlourPower]

It was the broader concept of not telling people things that are deemed to be "trade-only" knowledge, or deciding on my behalf that I can't deal with the answer.

So again, if the customer comes in and says she'd like 8 somethings "with no trans fats" when she returns (to parallel the original post), I'm curious if you all apply the same logic and suggest giving her the standard item with the trans fats, or if you advocate teaching her that making them without them would shorten their shelf-life and double the cost, and letting her make an informed decision, or if the sale of the 8 somethings is more important.

And I think you left out the category of customer that I usually am - I go into a shop for the first time (well, everybody has to at some point), and if I get products that I like with ingredients that I like, and I get my questions answered honestly, I will become a regular customer, and if I meet the owner late in the day when he or she is finished cooking or baking, we'll get to know about each other's kids over time.  But that relationship has to start sometime.

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Ah. Two answers from me on your question. First, they'd have to meet the minimum amount for a special order (8 won't cut it). Second, if they asked about trans fats I'd happily answer ours have none. If the product in question did, I'd tell them.

As far as trade secrets go, that's a case by case and customer by customer thing. I know you want a direct answer, but quite honestly it depends on the situation. In some cases I'll tell the person what they want to hear because it's simply the path of least resistance and I don't have all day to explain the intricacies of the business as stated earlier. You can call that lying if you want. To me, being disingenuous is when you pass off factory crap as your own or knowingly sell an inferior or stale product.

As for customers, the ones who genuinely care about what goes into what they eat are, quite frankly, the reason we get up in the morning. 95% of the regulars are truly a joy to be around.

I was talking specifically about the people with no intention of buying (or who buy something twice a year) who come in and grill you about the intricacies of the business because they have nothing better to do. There's more of that going on than you'd think, which is why you get told 'so and so's in the back, they can't come out right now.' Otherwise they'd never get anything done. I'm not directing that comment at you -- I don't know you -- but that's why that policy's in place.

[tannerz]

Ingredients simply cannot be put on the same playing field as methodology. As a professional, my methodology is what people are buying, all things being equal. You can take the same ingredients I use and make the same product, but it will not be the same 100%. It is my method of assembly, and baking that separates me from everyone else, and what makes each bakery different.

It is like asking a waiter to use a red pen to take your order, because you think it will make the chef work faster. It is NOT like asking the waiter to not put salt on your food.

Methods cannot be interchanged for ingredients in this type of argument.

[markk]

I'll buy those answers. I was just asking. As long as nobody is advocating selling an item containing trans-fats by passing it off as not, then I'm okay.

What makes me ask this is restaurants that get a request for a cup of decaffeinated coffee after they've served the last cup and the pot is empty, and they don't want to brew a whole new pot at that late hour, so they serve the customer caffeinated coffee, justifying it by thinking "he's had a few glasses of wine, he'll never notice the caffeine". I've witnessed that several times. "The customer will never know" and "he doesn't need to know the economics of brewing a whole new pot that'll go to waste for just his one cup".

[devlin]

As somebody else noted, it's eight brownies. Will the lack of her business break you? The responses to educate the customer about how freezing works and how bakeries actually prepare their products are good responses.

Don't lie. Didn't yer mama teach you that?