The Daisy

[slkinsey]

Discussion on the Daisy split from this thread.

George, you have asserted elsewhere that "Pioneers of Mixing Gin..." was a book of cocktails whose primary spirit was converted from whatever to gin.  Did you ever find out if the 30s Cosmo started with a different base spirit?  Or, even better, find another correlating recipe for the 30s Cosmo?

The Cosmo (1934) seems to have just been another name for a Gin Daisy; looking through other Daisy Recipes I see that it is nothing out of the ordinary daisy-wise. Its just a Gin Daisy, so the chances are that it wasn't changed from another spirit.

Although non-bartenders, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, might have trouble coping with the idea, the Cosmo (1934) is not that different from the Cosmo (1988). Bartenders do this kind of swapping around of ingredients all the time; it sometimes seems like they prefer this than to actually make a cocktail properly.

Gin swapped for Vodka, albeit Absolut Citron.

Cointreau stays.

Lemon juice changed for Lime Juice.

Raspberry Syrup changed for Cranberry (its just for colour remember).

As for correlating recipes, and by this I assume you mean a Gin Daisy that is also entitled "Cosmopolitan, the answer is no (not yet!-)

Doesn't a Daisy clasically have a short squirt of fizz water?

[ThinkingBartender]

The "Sour" used to have a squirt of sodawater also, but it lost it too; same with the daisy recipes I cited before.

[slkinsey]

Seems like just about all the recipes you cited include a squirt of soda water. Or am I missing something?

[ThinkingBartender]

Seems like just about all the recipes you cited include a squirt of soda water.  Or am I missing something?

←

Some of the recipes don't have soda, some have soda to dissolve the sugar in, while some have a squirt of soda at the end.

[slkinsey]

Well, to be precise, of the 23 recipes you have there, 16 of them have a squirt of fizz water added at such time so as to make the drink have light carbonation, 3 use a squirt of seltzer in the beginning to dissolve the sugar, and 4 have no selzter at all.

The "float some Chartreuse on top" recipes all seem to flow from William Schmidt whereas the "squirt of seltzer" recipes seem to flow from JT.

[ThinkingBartender]

I don't think that William Schmidt originated the "float some Chartreuse on top", as his reference to it is very dismissive; he refers to it only in passing, and was probably not a class of drink that he particularly cared about. If he did care about it, then he might have listed a full recipe, regardless of whether it is similar to a Sour or not.

Jerry Thomas is strange, as he doesn't seem to think that readers will find certain drinks so similar as not to matter; and therefore doesn't bother to differentiate between types of drinks.

Also which areas of the US was the daisy originated in? where was it popular?

Why did it suddenly become red? was this due to Grokusko in 1908? which must be noted as being the most un-daisy-like daisy in the whole list.

I feel that the Daisy was just included by some to fulfil a sense of completeness to their bartender manuals, without the author truly knowing what it was.

This subject requires more study; as the Daisy seems more influential than the Crusta in modern Cocktails.

[slkinsey]

I thought this was an interesting discussion in its own right, so I split it off.

I wonder if the Daisy started off more or less with two different meanings, one being a sour with a short squirt of seltzer and the other having a float of chartreuse and no seltzer.

It also seems that this drink went through a kind of re-definition at some point, much like the flip.

[ThinkingBartender]

I wonder if the Daisy started off more or less with two different meanings, one being a sour with a short squirt of seltzer and the other having a float of chartreuse and no seltzer.

←

The Sour seems to have included a squirt of sodawater in the early recipes.

The Jerry Thomas Daisy Recipes are even more strange as there seems to be very little in the way of common ingredients.

If you arrange all the ingredients in your favour and sub in the right main spirit, then you can come up with Margaritas (trans into Spanish as "Daisy") and Side-cars. And when you get to dashes of red ingredients you come up with a Cosmopolitan (top right of scan)

[daisy17]

Reviving this thread, hoping to end some confusion on my part. What makes a daisy a daisy?

Chartreuse? An incredibly knowledgeable bartender taught me this. Embury uses it too.

Soda water?

Grenadine? In "Joy of Mixology," my new favorite book, Gary says that "Sours that are sweetened by grenadine, rather than simple syrup, were once known as Daisies."

It sounds as though Embury agreed - "Daisies usually use raspberry syrup or grenadine." But then he says that's relatively unimportant. And he floats chartreuse on top of his gin daisy. So which is it??

Not only do the Jerry Thomas recipes not have many common ingredients as ThinkingBartender pointed out, but neither do the Savoy's, which variously use curacao, grenadine, maraschino, and gomme syrup as sweeteners.

I realize that there may not be a hard and fast rule here but I'd love some more insight.

[ThinkingBartender]

Reviving this thread, hoping to end some confusion on my part.  What makes a daisy a daisy? 

Chartreuse?  An incredibly knowledgeable bartender taught me this. Embury uses it too.

Soda water? 

Grenadine?  In "Joy of Mixology," my new favorite book, Gary says that "Sours that are sweetened by grenadine, rather than simple syrup, were once known as Daisies."

It sounds as though Embury agreed - "Daisies usually use raspberry syrup or grenadine."  But then he says that's relatively unimportant.  And he floats chartreuse on top of his gin daisy.  So which is it??

Not only do the Jerry Thomas recipes not have many common ingredients as ThinkingBartender pointed out, but neither do the Savoy's, which variously use curacao, grenadine, maraschino, and gomme syrup as sweeteners.

I realize that there may not be a hard and fast rule here but I'd love some more insight.

←

There are two classes of Daisy.

If you check the Webtender Wiki you will see that the older class of Daisy did not include Grenadine.

[slkinsey]

In Killer Cocktails, Dave Wondrich writes:

A contemporary of the Fizz, the Daisy was a short Sour or Punch sweetened with liqueur or syrup that was served in a cocktail glass; a squirt of charged water at the end lightened it and lent it a little sparkle.  (In other words, a Fizz without quite so much fizz.)  With the passing of generations, the art of Daisy-making lost its way, and the drink ended up as a sweet, even sticky, grenadine concoction, served on the rocks in a stemless glass.  Pity.  Properly made, the Gin Daisy is an all-around stunner of a drink that will leave you feeling fresh as a . . .

[Alchemist]

So is there a definitive answer? Or does this category of drinks defy catogorization? I like the idea that it is amount of soda, just a sploosh, like April showers that bring the beautiful may flowers. Or is it the sweetness of the cordials that lace the air like lilacs that give this drink its name? I don’t know but I’m sure going to have to do lot’s of research on the subject.

[ThinkingBartender]

Can anyone tell me of any references to the Daisey cocktail being served on crushed ice before 1952?

It seems to me that Irwin Cobb is the only one, but is this so?

Cheers!

George

[eje]

Well, 2 out of 3 in the Savoy Cocktail Book...

---

Gin Daisy

The Juice of 1/2 Lemon.

1/4 Tablespoonful Powdered Sugar.

6 Dashes Grenadine.

1 Glass Gin.

Use long tumbler. Half fill with packed ice, stir until glass is frosted. Fill with Syphon Soda Water, put 4 sprigs of green mint on top and decorate with slices of fruit in season.

Whisky Daisy.

Use small bar glass.

3 Dashes Gomme Syrup.

The Juice of 1/2 Small Lemon.

1 Wineglass Bourbon or Rye Whisky.

Fill glass 1/3 full of shaved ice.

Shake thoroughly, strain into a large cocktail glass, and fill up with Apollinaris or Seltzer Water.

Santa Cruz Rum Daisy

Use small bar glass.

3 or 4 Dashes Gomme Syrup.

2 or 3 Dashes Maraschino or Curacao.

The Juice of 1/2 Small Lemon.

l Wineglass Santa Cruz Rum.

Fill glass 1/3 full of shaved ice. Shake thoroughly, strain into a large cocktail glass, and fill up with Appollinaris or Selzer Water.

[eje]

Hmmm...

Oops, well, 1 out of 3 and it always could be a typo...

Edited June 3, 2008 by eje (log)

[eje]

Not sure where that Savoy Gin Daisy recipe comes from.

The Whisky and Santa Cruz seem to be more or less verbatim from the 2nd edition of Thomas. Well, the Thomas Whisky Daisy uses Orgeat instead of Gum.

I will note that Daisys don't appear in a google books scan of the 1862 edition of Thomas, nor do they appear in the Harry Johnson scanned by the euvs folks.

Those recipes do appear on Darcy O'Neil's online edition of Thomas.

Jerry Thomas pg. 15

[thirtyoneknots]

Gin Daisy from the Savoy seems to be implying shaved or chrushed ice by calling it 'packed' and noting the glass should frost. In my experience, that's pretty difficult to do otherwise.

[jazzyjeff]

Got a few from quite early on;

Scientific Bar-Keeping, Jos. W. Gibson, 1884

Brandy Diasy - 3 or 4 dashes gum syrup; 2 or 3 orange cordial; the juice of half a lemon; 1 small wine-glass of brandy. Fill glass 1/2 full of shaved ice; shake well and strain into a glass, and fill up with Seltzer water from a siphon. (Use small bar glass)

Recipes of American And Other Mixed Drinks, Charlie Paul, circa 1887

Brandy Daisy - Take a half-pint tumbler half full of chipped ice; add three or four dashes curacoa cordial, the juice of half a lemon, a small wine-glassful of brandy, two dashes of rum; shake well, and strain into a large cocktail glass, and fill up with a syphon seltzer water.

Modern American Drinks, George Kappeler, 1895

Brandy Daisy - A mixing-glass half full of fine ice, three dashes gum-syrup, the juice of half a lemon, three dashes orange cordial, one jigger brandy; shake well, strain into fizz glass, fill with siphon seltzer or apollinaris.

Just realized that none of these actually are served over crushed ice, oops.

Hoffman House Bartender's Guide, Charles Mahoney, 1905

Brandy Daisy - Use Large Bar Glass - One-half tablespoon sugar. Two dashes lemon juice. Dissolve well with spoon in a squirt of seltzer. One-half glass yellow Chartreuse. Fill with shaved ice. Add one glass brandy. Stir with spoon, put fruit in bar glass, strain liquor into it, and serve.

Wehman's Bartenders Guide from 1891 lists two Brandy Daisies. One of the recipes is virtually identical to the one listed above.

Hope this helps you out.

[samuraibartender]

I'm assuming this thread has been replicated on the DrinkBoy forums (or began there), but here's some other sources prior to the '50's:

W.C. Whitfield's Here's How (1941) lists seven Daisies (2 for Whiskey, Gin, Brandy, Canadian, Santa Cruz & Lauder's), all being prepared by the following method:

"Put these ingredients in a highball glass, fill with crushed ice, stir until glass is frosted. [...]"

Trader Vic, in his Bartender's Guide (1947) has a small section devoted to Daisies, wherein he lists the methods of Daisy-making I've seen (or in some cases, a hybrid of them) on a per-cocktail basis:

*For the Bourbon, Brandy #1 & 2, Morning Glory & Whiskey #2 Daisies he states to shake with ice & strain into a glass.

*For the Gin, La Florida, and Star Daisies, he states to shake with ice, then strain into a glass with one ice cube added.

* For the Brandy #3, Rum #2, & Whiskey #1 Daisies he states to combine ingredients over crushed ice & stir or swizzle.

* The Rum #1 Daisy is shaken with crushed ice & poured unstrained into a glass.

* Finally, the Tequila Daisy is shaken with ice, then strained into a glass filled with crushed ice.

As for J. Thomas - I've not looked at the online copy for some time, but in my print copy (the 1862, printed from microphage) I see no reference to the Daisy. Could this have been added in the later (19-someaught) reprint?

On the other hand, drinks like the Roman Punch (& others with Raspberry syrup) are listed, so a Daisy is hardly out of the question for the time period..

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried to make a Daisy using crushed/shaved ice, but rather than stirring with a spoon, swizzling the drink? Furthermore, has anyone ever sampled a Lauder's (Scotch-based) Daisy?

Cheers!

[Bunnyhugs]

Vaguely following the topic. . .

Does anyone know the difference between a 'fix' and a 'daisy'?

In the Darcy O'Neil version of Jerry Thomas the difference seems to be that a Daisy is topped with soda, and not prepared with crushed ice. But I think I saw an online quote from David Embury that suggested there was no real difference.

Is the Daisy even a 19th century drink?

I was about to do a post on old Genever cocktails and wanted to get this clear.

[jazzyjeff]

As for J. Thomas - I've not looked at the online copy for some time, but in my print copy (the 1862, printed from microphage) I see no reference to the Daisy. Could this have been added in the later (19-someaught) reprint?

On the other hand, drinks like the Roman Punch (& others with Raspberry syrup) are listed, so a Daisy is hardly out of the question for the time period..

←

The daisy was added to the appendix of the 1876 Jerry Thomas book.

Brandy Daisy (use small bar glass)

3 or 4 dashes gum syrup

3 or 4 dashes orange cordial

The juice of half a lemon

1 small wineglass of brandy

Fill glass half full of shaved ice

Shake well and strain into a glass, and fill up with Seltzer water from a syphon.

The recipe is the same for Whisky, Gin and Rum.

[eje]

The daisy was added to the appendix of the 1876 Jerry Thomas book.

Brandy Daisy (use small bar glass)

3 or 4 dashes gum syrup

3 or 4 dashes orange cordial

The juice of half a lemon

1 small wineglass of brandy

Fill glass half full of shaved ice

Shake well and strain into a glass, and fill up with Seltzer water from a syphon.

The recipe is the same for Whisky, Gin and Rum.

←

Oh, cool.

So the Savoy Cocktail Book Gin Daisy is from the 1876 appendix of Thomas and the Whisky and Rum (more or less) from whatever version of Jerry Thomas Darcy O'Neil has scanned and put online? 1887, I guess, from the cover board. Odd, but there you go.

[ThinkingBartender]

george

Edited June 7, 2008 by ThinkingBartender (log)

[ThinkingBartender]

Well, 2 out of 3 in the Savoy Cocktail Book...

---

Gin Daisy

The Juice of 1/2 Lemon.

1/4 Tablespoonful Powdered Sugar.

6 Dashes Grenadine.

1 Glass Gin.

Use long tumbler. Half fill with packed ice, stir until glass is frosted. Fill with Syphon Soda Water, put 4 sprigs of green mint on top and decorate with slices of fruit in season.

Whisky Daisy.

Use small bar glass.

3 Dashes Gomme Syrup.

The Juice of 1/2 Small Lemon.

1 Wineglass Bourbon or Rye Whisky.

Fill glass 1/3 full of shaved ice.

Shake thoroughly, strain into a large cocktail glass, and fill up with Apollinaris or Seltzer Water.

Santa Cruz Rum Daisy

Use small bar glass.

3 or 4 Dashes Gomme Syrup.

2 or 3 Dashes Maraschino or Curacao.

The Juice of 1/2 Small Lemon.

l Wineglass Santa Cruz Rum.   

Fill glass 1/3 full of shaved ice.  Shake thoroughly, strain into a large cocktail glass, and fill up with Appollinaris or Selzer Water.

←

The most interesting thing about these three recipes is that the Gin Daisy contains Grenadine, and is thus red, while being served WITH crushed ice, and the last two are non-red and merely prepared with crushed ice.

The non-red Daisy predates the red version.

I am just looking for the versions of the Daisy that are served "frappe" as opposed to merely being prepared with crushed ice.

Cheers! And Thanks!

George

[FrogPrincesse]

From last night, a Gainsbourg Daisy. A drink created by Marcis Dzelzainis a few years ago for a Havana Club competion that he ended up winning. Havana Club Añejo 3 Años, calvados (Daron XO), lime juice, orgeat (homemade coconut orgeat), yellow Chartreuse. Really delightful.