Lacroix is gone, is Georges next... who takes over

[matthewj]

got to go eat.

Going Italian today with my better half. will talk son.

[bigboss]

I read this thread a few days ago and have not had a chance to respond. How was your dinner buddy? I'll bet it's getting hot down there now. Let me address a couple of tangential points before getting to my thoughts on this thread. First of all, Matt, your spelling and syntax are deplorable... it's "yoke," not "yolk" farmer boy. I love you but I gotta break your stones here. Second of all, I can't believe that they are still running my brunch menu items, or at least poor incarnations of them, in June. I'm shocked and insulted that the guiding hand of hubris would allow the Lacroix staff to coast off someone else's sad and sorry ideas for this long. I guess that's what happens when "Chefs... Stop... Caring," the new hit series on Fox.

Matt, Vadouvan, Murckury, etc., you guys all know that Philadelphia does not seem to want to support a fine dining culture outside of the established echelon. That's because fine dining is expensive, labor intensive and requires vision, commitment and acumen from the chef and/or owners of a restaurant. Hence the success of Le Bec-Fin over time, as a particular example. With Chef gone and the rate of turn-over I hear they are experiencing, I can't envision good things for the restaurant. The management does not seem committed to operating a fine-dining restaurant, since the numbers don't add up in the short-term. And furthermore, the absence of the Chef means that the ethos of fine dining, the attention to detail, customer service, staff training, discipline and so forth, will not be inculcated as the staff turns over and over.

While little room at the top exists for high end restaurants, Philadelphia can support a market for smaller restaurants that feature smart, creative cuisine with a more worldly appeal than a Starr joint. There are a lot of young people in the city that either have a lot of money to spend or soon will. My brother-in-law, for example, is finishing his residency at Temple. He is symbolic to me of a market that must be tapped in the city, the next generation of potential diners who need to be educated in the art of dining. I always voiced this opinion to Chef. These people are the customer base that will support the type of creative and honest cuisine that we appreciate. The yoke, as it were, falls on people like you, Vadouvan, and you, Matt, when you make your MacArthur-like return to the area someday, and me amongst others I suppose. I think that we can offer customers the upside of fine dining, excellent food, smart service and an understanding of the value of a good restaurant, in a smaller venue without the fuss and cost of fine dining... for now. And ten years from now, once your customer base has been established and some modicum of financial success has been reached, maybe one of the yoke bearers can take a shot at being the next George or Chef. So drink your tall glass of Jamba Juice and get after it. That means you too, Farmer Boy.

[Vadouvan]

Heavy lies the head that wear's the crown.

I certainly have no interest in being in that position.

Looks like Striped bass chef is taking the reigns and frankly in my opinion, he can knock himself out.

I have zero interest

I agree fine dining with all the frou frou BS is dead.

People want smart creative delicious food with flexibility.

Not to say we should cater to what the public wants....

[murkcury]

We all seem to be in agreement that 'fine dining' in Philadelphia is more or less done. That, of course, is a certain text book definition of fine dining. It is the style of food and service that chefs like Jean-Marie Lacroix and Georges Perrier brought to Philadelphia. They must be given credit for propagating this movement and instilling certain expectations in the Philadelphia dining public and several 'generations' of cooks. Just because we think the time for 'fine dining' (as it was) is passed doesn't mean that certain elements of it can't live on.

That's the challenge. Synthesizing the high standards of service and elegance that we associated with fine dining with a new style of food and overall dining experience. When I go out to eat I want great, creative food but I also want to be comfortable (not jacket and tie comfortable). I want professional service. I like interesting china and real stemware. I enjoy having the services of a sommelier. I find enjoyment in canapes, middle courses and mignardises. I like certain (not all) flourishes of fine dining. One can have a great meal at a byo, no doubt, but there needs to be a variety of experiences available to the dining public. I, for one, am strongly in favor of smaller, creative venues that adopt certain elements of fine dining service but remain approachable. More formal than the standard byo but less stuffy than traditional fine dining establishments. There is a happy medium somewhere out there and I believe that is the challenge for the next generation of Philadelphia chefs to find.

[matthewj]

Ok. So I know my syntax is poor, and my spelling needs a little proof reading. But my BB. I put Yolk on for a reason. Yolk the nucleus of the egg. One wears egg on the the face, ie Rittenhouse, ie Chef. Plus since he is known for his egg dishes. I thought that it would be appropriate.

I do not think fine dinning is dead, just on vacation. It really is starting to morph into something else. But the real question is this. Is there enough talent to drive a restaurant revolution within the city beyond that of BYO. There are a handful of talented chefs but the supporting cast is just not there. If you have incidents such as the Le Bec overtime, well you can just kiss your dream goodbye. That just sounds like some self righteous cooks who do not want to make their bones.( but that is a discussion for another time)

Dinning needs a collective effort of the chefs as well as the public to support the restaurant's. Ansil and Vetri are goods starts, but I hear the whispers of too expensive. Good food comes with a price. If you want to buy a Mercedes get ready for the price tag. The public needs to be educated that a steak is not always a steak. A 12 ounce steak from Stephen star would not be the same as what I served at the Rittenhouse. (I still doubt anybody uses 4 story hill farm anymore) Is Philadelphia ready for that expense. I am not so sure.

So we will just sip our Jamba Juice. Slide on the ice. and wait patiently. So leave the light on. Keep the network growing. Threads like this will slowly educate the public to become more discerning and expect more than just Caesar salad and cheese steaks. It starts with a small ripple that goes through the lake.

Oh Yeah.. Did you know who replaced General Macarthur during the Korean conflict.. OH its true.... Oh its true.. Think about it

[CherieV]

Matt, I know you asked for my opinion. Well, a few things come to mind after working for both Georges and Jean Marie in a past life. Is fine dining dead? I do not think that it will ever die for sure if it is the real thing. Le Bec, Lacroix, The Fountain, St Bass etc are special places to dine in Philadelphia. For many reasons other than just the food.

Service, atmosphere, wine selection and service are also very much part of the experience. There is something to be said for the Maitre d' greeting the guests at the door, an amazing cheese and dessert cart, and of course a Sommelier assisting with wine suggestions for your meal.

Fine dining is a special evening out that you have put $$ aside for to enjoy. The Rittenhouse and The Four Seasons have the advantage of being a destination for a weekend getaway with fine dining in house. People will always want to get dressed up and truly dine for that special occasion. I look forward to it absolutely.

We also have diversity in our dining scene that is expanding every day.

The gastro-pub scene is strong, quality chefs opening BYO's continues to grow, and the casual concept fine dining aspect is now on the move with places like Ansill and Gayle.

I guess what I am saying is I hope there is places for them all to be here and be successful. Personally, I have use for them all and enjoy my experiences in each type for different reasons. If we lose our fine dining scene in Phila I believe we would be moving backwards as a culinary destination and a world class city.

[R Washburn]

I am sorry to read that Jean-Marie is leaving "LaCroix", but I can't sat that his tenure there wasn't a disapointment. IMHO, with the exception of pastry, "LaCroix" never came close to the standards set during Jean-Marie's time at "The Fountain".

We all seem to be in agreement that 'fine dining' in Philadelphia is more or less done. That, of course, is a certain text book definition of fine dining. It is the style of food and service that chefs like Jean-Marie Lacroix and Georges Perrier brought to Philadelphia. They must be given credit for propagating this movement and instilling certain expectations in the Philadelphia dining public and several 'generations' of cooks. Just because we think the time for 'fine dining' (as it was) is passed doesn't mean that certain elements of it can't live on.

Was the original "Le Bec-Fin" really fine dining, or great food in a relatively humble space? The current "Le Bec-Fin" is about fine dining, not because the public clamored for it, but because George Perrier wanted to offer a French Michelin three star experience here in Philadelphia. Whether he chose to make it informal or ultra-formal had nothing to do with the public's tastes, I suspect.

If the next world class Chef that crops up in Philadelphia decides to "bring back" fine dining, then it will be back.

Edited June 11, 2006 by R Washburn (log)

[Vadouvan]

If we lose our fine dining scene in Phila I believe we would be moving backwards as a culinary destination and a world class city.

Let me explain further, I think what we are saying when we say fine dining is dying (as I hope it does) is that the Ultra formal places with white tablecloths, name like "Le_XXXX", "La-xxx" or "Chez_xxxx" are done. Silly requirements like formal dress codes, expenditure on flower bouquets, fish spoons, 3 hr dinners, "Chef prefers that you eat your steak med rare" and all the other pretentious collateral BS that simply increases the cost of the experience without added value other than semantics....is dead.

Currently in Philadelphia, while I agree that it's a great city, it isnt a world class dining destination.

We have Starr,BYOB's and very little in between.

I think what MatthewJ wants is mid-tier restaurants with liquor that are able to use the liquor revenue percentages to diminish food cost so more exciting dishes can be served cheaper to a wider audience.

Although it seems majority of people are rabid for anything BYO regardless of how good it actually is, trust me selling blue and pink drinks to women under 30 greatly reduces the cost of Foiegras, Lobsters and kampachi.

.......and I am not being sexist, you want a busy bar ?

get women to the bar, everyone else shows up with thier wallets in tow.

[matthewj]

I LOVE YOU V. It is exactly what I am trying to get at. There needs to be some happy medium, where there is none. I am now working in a city where there is a lot of restaurants. A lot of very good ones, only a few exceptional. But there are a lot of very good ones. And the public is ecited to ee new ones grow. This has always angered me, because I believe Philadelphia has a lot more to offer, than the city I am living in right now. I think peoples expectations of excellence have been watered down by average service, mid line food and a lot of glitz.

To respond to the standard of excellence Chef set at the Four Seasons vs. at Lacroix. Chef was surrounded by a cast of people at the Seasons whose sole goal was the execution of the highest standards. His dinning room staff was and still is at the Four Seasons is professional and impeccable. His had an excellent staff in the kitchen and cooks who cared more about the food and doing the job correctly for the guest alone. His staff owned the restaurant. That is what it made it great.

At Lacroix, I believe he never had the support from the management like he did at the Seasons. I also believe that the staff did not feel a great sense of ownership like the Seasons.

I think that the public never let the restaurant and chef fall out of the shadow of the Four Seasons. So it was always compared to each other. Which should have never been the case. The restaurant was supposed to be different, which no one including the management and the Chef let go.

I think the food could be at times better than the Four Seasons, but again there was always compromises forced, forced, forced on the kitchen by the management and the chef. That a lot of times got in the way of consistency. But at one time it was possible for the Rittenhouse to surpass the Season. That is gone now.

[Holly Moore]

Let me explain further, I think what we are saying when we say fine dining is dying (as I hope it does) is that the Ultra formal places with white tablecloths, name like "Le_XXXX", "La-xxx" or "Chez_xxxx" are done. Silly requirements like formal dress codes, expenditure on flower bouquets, fish spoons, 3 hr dinners,  "Chef prefers that you eat your steak med rare" and all the other pretentious collateral BS that simply increases the cost of the experience without added value other than semantics....is dead.

←

My last three fine dining experiences, two at three star restaurants in France, and one in NYC, were wonderful. Especially wonderful because in a true fine dining establishment one doesn't find the "pretentious collareral BS" that both you and I object to. It has been my experience that the pretentious restaurants are second tier wannabe's - the more the pretension the less the skills of the kitchen. Not always, perhaps, but more times than not.

I hope true fine dining, with flower budgets that exceed my annual income, formal dress codes and fish spoons never disappears from Philadelphia, or the world. Meals at such places, at least for one of my middle class means, are rare indulgences to be truly savored. Not just the cuisine and the ambience, but the service. Especially the service. The three fine dining meals I mentioned above had a style of service singular to that level of restaurant.

Now the confession - those three meals all occured 2 - 3 years ago. But over the past couple of years I have still dined very well, whether at one our BYO's or huffing up two steep flights of stairs in West Philadelphia. Very well indeed. And the casualness of those meals was savored too. But once or twice a year I'd still like to put on my best suit, search out an unstained necktie, polish up my American Express card and dine at a true, formal, starched white linen world class restaurant.

Edited June 12, 2006 by Holly Moore (log)

[CherieV]

There needs to be some happy medium, where there is none.

Matt, it is happening. Places like Gayle, Meritage, Ansill, Southwark etc are popping up everyday. Phila moves Slowwly but I remain optimistic about our culinary scene since I have had the opportunity to work with some really talented chefs your company included! Come back and open THAT restaurant!! Phila misses you!

As for fine dining, I'm with Holly, it has its place and I hope it doesn't go away.

[bigboss]

Holy mille-feuille of meaning Mattman! That yolk reference went right ova my head! It appears to me that we all are in agreement on the matter, just arguing different angles of it. What Philly needs is more full-service restaurants that can compete on a national level in terms of cuisine yet still of reasonable price. While I have never eaten at Gayle, Ansill or Vetri, these restaurants sound like they are beginning the trend. More importantly, these chef/owners all have aspirations beyond their current operations. This is the type of business that can evolve into mini-empires like Perrier's over time. Hence my intention to call out people like you and vadouvan to start thinking about changing the scene here. The customers are out there; we just gotta feed them.

[KatieLoeb]

Holy mille-feuille of meaning Mattman! That yolk reference went right ova my head!  It appears to me that we all are in agreement on the matter, just arguing different angles of it.  What Philly needs is more full-service restaurants that can compete on a national level in terms of cuisine yet still of reasonable price.  While I have never eaten at Gayle, Ansill or Vetri, these restaurants sound like they are beginning the trend.  More importantly, these chef/owners all have aspirations beyond their current operations. This is the type of business that can evolve into mini-empires like Perrier's over time.  Hence my intention to call out people like you and vadouvan to start thinking about changing the scene here.  The customers are out there; we just gotta feed them.

←

I'm not sure I'd put Vetri in the same price category as Gayle or Ansill. It's a much harder hit on the wallet than the other two.

[CherieV]

Holy mille-feuille of meaning Mattman! That yolk reference went right ova my head!  It appears to me that we all are in agreement on the matter, just arguing different angles of it.  What Philly needs is more full-service restaurants that can compete on a national level in terms of cuisine yet still of reasonable price.  While I have never eaten at Gayle, Ansill or Vetri, these restaurants sound like they are beginning the trend.  More importantly, these chef/owners all have aspirations beyond their current operations. This is the type of business that can evolve into mini-empires like Perrier's over time.  Hence my intention to call out people like you and vadouvan to start thinking about changing the scene here.  The customers are out there; we just gotta feed them.

←

THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! Glad to see that you are thinking in those terms BIGBOSS! You are way to talented to remain behind the scenes.

[Vadouvan]

More.

forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=67805

[Vadouvan]

My last three fine dining experiences, two at three star restaurants in France, and one in NYC, were wonderful. Especially wonderful because in a true fine dining establishment one doesn't find the "pretentious collareral BS" that both you and I object to. It has been my experience that the pretentious restaurants are second tier wannabe's - the more the pretension the less the skills of the kitchen. Not always, perhaps, but more times than not.

I hope true fine dining, with flower budgets that exceed my annual income, formal dress codes and fish spoons never disappears from Philadelphia, or the world. Meals at such places, at least for one of my middle class means, are rare indulgences to be truly savored. Not just the cuisine and the ambience, but the service. Especially the service. The three fine dining meals I mentioned above had a style of service singular to that level of restaurant.

Now the confession - those three meals all occured 2 - 3 years ago. But over the past couple of years I have still dined very well, whether at one our BYO's or huffing up two steep flights of stairs in West Philadelphia. Very well indeed. And the casualness of those meals was savored too. But once or twice a year I'd still like to put on my best suit, search out an unstained necktie, polish up my American Express card and dine at a true, formal, starched white linen world class restaurant.

So Holly, will we be seeing fish spoon stains soon as opposed to grease stains ?

[NaFairge]

philly is ready for more. everyone is waiting. what needs to change is those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk ( granted, for many reasons ). there are a few guys in the wings who are dying to JUST MAKE GOOD FOOD.

politics aside, empires aside.

we need to check our egos at the back door and come to work in bright whites and COOK. this town needs to open our eyes and take it all in. how many times do you hear line cooks say 'i went out last night to ______ and it sucked.'

hypocrytical shoemakers, gentlemen.

we are called to embrace the restaurant community and support all those involved.

and GOD how i miss chef.......

[matthewj]

Boy, I really hope Nafairge is not directing that at anyone. Because I know the people that talk on this thread, and they all checked there egos at the door a long time ago. All of them put their egos aside to make people look better for the sake of the food and the good of the restaurant. They all walk the the walk, most of them I have worked with. They deserve their say, and rightfully so. They Earned It.

I have no problems with cooks who have opinions about restaurants, as long as they could back it up with the food that they put on the plate.

If they give as much as 110% everyday, head down, no complaint. They have also earned that right, not to be called a shoe maker.

[matthewj]

And if you have ever ran with me you would know why.

[matthewj]

You know i was just going to respond and be done, but that would not be me.

I wonder how much do you miss the chef. MMM. Did you ever get sandbagged by him, be dismissed by him, Or did you ever get caught in his whirlwind wrath for his own mistakes. No?

You should ask Martin Hammond, DJ, Joe Drago, Billy D, and countless other who have worked for him for over 18 years. (checking Their egos at the door everyday) how much they miss him. Funny in the five years at Lacroix, I do not remember any of them coming to wish us well, to say hi, to exchange ideas... Weird huh? Did one ever wonder why after that many years, someone would not want anything to do with him....

[Vadouvan]

interesting.

Boy, I really hope Nafairge is not directing that at anyone. Because I know the people that talk on this thread, and they all checked there egos at the door a long time ago. All of them put their egos aside to make people look better for the sake of the food and the good of the restaurant. They all walk the the walk, most of them I have worked with. They deserve their say, and rightfully so. They Earned It.

I have no problems with cooks who have opinions about restaurants, as long as they could back it up with the food that they put on the plate.

If they give as much as 110% everyday, head down, no complaint. They have also earned that right, not to be called a shoe maker.

2 Things.....Matt...

I also know by name the guys on these thread, what's funny is we all have each other's cell phone numbers but our work schedules are too crazy to have a normal phone call.

That being said, none of these people in any way shape or form can be considered a half ass cook or shoemaker.

I am interpreting Nafairge's quotes as general frustration with some of the behaviour that goes on in this industry and not directed specifically at anyone unless he say's otherwise. On the subject of those who talk the talk and dont walk the walk, it's quite easy to open a restaurant in the city and serve your own version of tuna tartare, a crabcake, an attempt at clever prose to disguise what is essentially a ceasar salad (Romaine salad with parmesan dressing and garlic croutons), the requisite soy-ginger-wasabi axis of evil, something-crusted Ahi-Tuna, redundantly described "Penne-Pasta" like Penne is anything else, finished with a "demiglace" which isnt even a word that should ever be mentioned on a restaurant's menu, a chipotle aioli and the very act which will rightfully earn you crucifixtion in Modena............balsamic glaze.

It is better not to be involved yet than to have to dumb it down under the pretext of "this is what people want".

More people than not need to step back from their fancy ingredients and tasting menus and just learn how to use salt, sugar and acid properly.

matt you know how many people who have worked in no-name places less that 3 years and are now "chef -de-cuisine" or have actual titles printed on thier jackets like they are being confused for astronaughts...

So before we call people out for not walking the walk, we all should look in the mirror.

Yes there are som any line cooks who say they go to places and it sucked but guess what ?

Until they go home to reflect upon the work they did today and read a book about food instead of hanging out at Good Dog, drinking and chain smoking....I dont see the passion.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[skulky]

so that whole other thread is about chef retiring and the boohooing woe is me the sky is falling, philadelphia fine dining is dead, negative everything, and it seems like more than one person worked for chef at some point. so why not share stories about chef and why you're a better cook because of it.

so it's a saturday night and i'm in the shit, i know this going in, i'm literally running everywhere in the kitchen, i'm finally working a station all my own, trying to do my best, trying to prove myself, no more prep i'm on pantry, on my own on a busy saturday night! i have an insane amount of work to get done, but i'm on top of it, cause i couldnt't sleep cause i was nervous and anxious and thinking of all the shit i had to do, planning every move. so then it's getting close to service and i'm there i see the light at the end of the tunnel, i'm ready a double shot of espresso and the orders start coming in, ok let's go, let's kick some ass,

first order osetra caviar, an add on that costs more than a 5 course dinner, ok time to make the blini, the batter which i saved from last night cause everyone swore up down that i could keep, and i was so in the shit and everyone told me it would work, so i had to believe them, guess what it doesn't work, it's not setting, and orders are coming in, greens, greeens, greens, and guess what else i have on my station oysters, and there is plenty of orders for them coming in.

so i eventually get the blini to work with chef coming over and flipping out we put in more flour, but kind of toast it in the salamander, needless to say i'm not starting off well. so i play catch up bang out a few orders see the oysters on the ticket are a different name and i'm like what the hell is this, aperently all the oysters i have ready to go are not what's on the nights menu and i had spent my entire previous evening cleaning oysters that were destined for brunch. meanwhile tickets keep coming in 4 and 6 tops pretty much first 2 courses all pantry i'm shitting my pants at this point, when the old man comes over to bail me out, i have like 6 orders of oysters up, so i need 3 dozen cleaned, and opened like now, or in like 2 minutes most, i'm so nervous with chef there i'm shaking and trying to open the oysters as fast as i can, without horriblly maming myself, and he tells me to stop and take care of everything but the oysters, and he yells at a few of the foodrunners get this plate and that, and i' suddenly like that not in the shit, but i'll never forget the sound click, click, click of chef opening oysters, i was like what the hell is that, and it's the old man flawlessly popping the oysters open, click, click, click.

[NaFairge]

like i would ever have the cojones to call matt, v, bb or the others shoemakers. that was not directed at you. mr vadouvan nailed it with his description of menues, name on the coat and good dog reference.

we have some young leaders in this town. i am just anxious to see what they do next.

[NaFairge]

and you know why i miss chef?

he was the last guy i worked for in philly who made my stomach ball up into a tight knot. fear. and i saw PLENTY i did not like. but the respect remains.

[matthewj]

Listen. I am not saying the chef does not have skills to pay the bills, but in your own diatribe . You had the wrong menu item. Where is the Chef d Cuisine to check your mise en place. You had day old blini batter. A seasoned cook who "told you the blini batter from the previous night "was OK", did not take into account the instability of whipped cream, egg whites, and the O2 of potatoes. Rookie moves. Why on earth did you keep the blini batter. That is mistake # 2

Chef helped out, great. He basically made pancake batter out of your mistake. Never should have happened in the first place. Why did you have oysters opened for mise en place. All oysters should be opened at that moment

If the systems are set up properly, I hope you at least spent one to two years on the hot line as a commis before earning the spot on the Garde Manager line.( where by the way you would have learned about blini batter) (which by the way is not a starting point in French Kitchens).

No one is question the death knoll of eating in Philadelphia, one needs to question where it evolves into, and who is going to take the reigns.

V is correct same thread idea.