German Pinot Noirs

[GordonCooks]

An afternoon with August Kessler

There was a big food and wine show in my hometown over the weekend. And I signed up for a Riesling tasting and seminar with Willy Frank of Dr. Frank Cellars and more importantly, August Kessler of Kessler vineyards. They of course dispense with the rudimentary history of Riesling and it’s roots in Germany and the US. I was able to chat with Mr. Kessler after the seminar.

He’s a very passionate man about his wine and very informative. He loves to talk Riesling but is most passionate about his Pinot Noirs. I had asked him about his Cuvee Max and if it was derived from DRC clones as I’ve been told and he responded yes. In fact, all the Pinots are Burgundy rootstock. Just about all of his pinot rootstock is originally Clos Vougeot with vines more than 100 years old in some cases. Even his lower level Spatburgunder us vines at least 40-60 years old and any special designation bottlings or named MAX (the winemaker) are 55-75 year old rootstock. I had to ask the question I ask all winemakers – what’s your favorite wine other than your own, not surprisingly – J.J. Prum

[Rebel Rose]

Thank you for the insight. Sounds like a wonderful seminar, especially with an opportunity to talk with them one-on-one. How many people attend each seminar?

[Jason Perlow]

German Pinot? Now I have to figure out a way to find some.

[GordonCooks]

Thank you for the insight.  Sounds like a wonderful seminar, especially with an opportunity to talk with them one-on-one.  How many people attend each seminar?

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Most of the seminars were packed (Aussie wines, Johnnie Walker) but this one was the only one I wanted to attend and because it started an hour before the event, it was only about 25 of us. Most of them approached Willy Frank to discuss his Salmon Creek and other wines. I don't think many of them knew who Mr. Kessler was - I thanked him profusely for his attendance. He chatted with another fan and myself for a good 10 minutes.

[Brad Ballinger]

Thanks for posting on this, Bernie.

When I was in the Pfalz in the autumn of 2003, I made it a point to take back a few red wines with me. Some of those were Spatgburgunder wines, but I also remember a Dornfelder and a St. Laurent (all names of grapes for those who may not know). I still have a bottle of 1999 Meier Spatburguner waiting to be opened. When I tasted it two years ago, it was well structured, and seemed to me like it needed some time. We'll see how it turns out.

Anyway, there's the beginnings of a debate in the Pfalz about whether or not to use barrique with spatburgunder. I'm wondering if that was mentioned at the event you attended.

[GordonCooks]

Thanks for posting on this, Bernie.

When I was in the Pfalz in the autumn of 2003, I made it a point to take back a few red wines with me.  Some of those were Spatgburgunder wines, but I also remember a Dornfelder and a St. Laurent (all names of grapes for those who may not know).  I still have a bottle of 1999 Meier Spatburguner waiting to be opened.  When I tasted it two years ago, it was well structured, and seemed to me like it needed some time.  We'll see how it turns out.

Anyway, there's the beginnings of a debate in the Pfalz about whether or not to use barrique with spatburgunder.  I'm wondering if that was mentioned at the event you attended.

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Who's Bernie? If you're mistaking me for Bernie Roth, I'm honored but admit I'm lowly Gordon from Upstate NY. He didn't metioned any upcoming changes in winemaking technique.

[wkl]

Has anyone tasted any truly memorable pinot from Germany? I have had a couple and one from Alasce. In all cases I was underwhelmed.

Maybe I am missing something?

[Brad Ballinger]

Who's Bernie? If you're mistaking me for Bernie Roth, I'm honored but admit I'm lowly Gordon from Upstate NY.

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Sorry,

I know that Gordon Cooks isn't your real name (or so you posted in a different thread), so I mistook the source of the quotation in your signature line for your actual name. My mistake.

[primowino]

Has anyone tasted any truly memorable pinot from Germany? I have had a couple and one from Alasce. In all cases I was underwhelmed.

Maybe I am missing something?

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Here Here !! Thin and uninteresting. I'd rather drink beaujolais!

[JohnL]

Has anyone tasted any truly memorable pinot from Germany? I have had a couple and one from Alasce. In all cases I was underwhelmed.

Maybe I am missing something?

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Here Here !! Thin and uninteresting. I'd rather drink beaujolais!

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Germany produces a quite large quantity of Pinot Noir or Spatburgunder.

Because of the climate and difficulty in ripening-- German Pinot Noirs tend to be

light bodied and lightly flavored. They are usually higher in acidity than pinots from warmer climates.

Though they can be interesting and pleasant with food:

They are also quite expensive.

It is doubtful that they will ever be popular here as an import for the above reasons.

so

You are not really "missing" something.

[GordonCooks]

Has anyone tasted any truly memorable pinot from Germany? I have had a couple and one from Alasce. In all cases I was underwhelmed.

Maybe I am missing something?

←

Here Here !! Thin and uninteresting. I'd rather drink beaujolais!

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Pinots from alsace are thin but the wines from Rüdesheim and Assmannshausen are a fairly recent development and full of potential if classic Burgundy is your style. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[wkl]

"Don't knock it until you've tried it."

Not knocking German pinot, as I'm always on the lookout for interesting juice. Just seems like they trying for Burgundian prices also. I'm sure there are some good examples however.

[JohnL]

Gordon:

not ALL pinot noirs from Germany are thin and uninteresting.

In fact I would argue that even though they are, for the most part, "Thin" they can, in fact, be "interesting."

Yes-there are a small number of producers who are applying Burgundian techniques --a recent development. Clonal selection is still something the Germans are wrestling with.

But what they can't change is the climate. The fact is, Germany is one of the greatest white wine producing countries on earth. They have made the most from their climate and soils.

The question re: Pinot Noir, is what is the potential? I think they are still attempting to answer that question.

(many countries the US included are still trying to answer that question!).

I think it is safe to say, though, that Germany will never be a major source of fine pinot noir. We will likely, continue see a few on shelves here and there in the US and they will probably remain curiosities. Ther very few top producers may, actually produce some very fine examples of pinot noir (weather permitting) but again, these will be the exceptions (there are always exceptions to the rule).

So while it would be wrong to "dismiss" German pinot noir out of hand, I do believe that the generalities applied to them are based in fact.

[GordonCooks]

Gordon:

not ALL pinot noirs from Germany are thin and uninteresting.

In fact I would argue that even though they are, for the most part, "Thin" they can, in fact, be "interesting."

Yes-there are a small number of producers who are applying Burgundian techniques --a recent development. Clonal selection is still something the Germans are wrestling with.

But what they can't change is the climate. The fact is, Germany is one of the greatest white wine producing countries on earth. They have made the most from their climate and soils.

The question re: Pinot Noir, is what is the potential? I think they are still attempting to answer that question.

(many countries the US included are still trying to answer that question!).

I think it is safe to say, though, that Germany will never be a major source of fine pinot noir. We will likely, continue see a few on shelves here and there in the US and they will probably remain curiosities. Ther very few top producers may, actually produce some very fine examples of pinot noir (weather permitting) but again, these will be the exceptions (there are always exceptions to the rule).

So while it would be wrong to "dismiss" German pinot noir out of hand, I do believe that the generalities applied to them are based in fact.

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I'm the one who likes German pinots on this thread

I had a recent bottle of Kesslers Cuvee Max from DRC Clones and found it quite tasty and complex. Not exacty 10-15.00 bottles but what good Pinots are nowadays. I'd take 1 bottle of the Kessler over 6 bottles of Harley Ostini but that's just my taste. They may never reach the level of success of other regions but they are really passionate about what they're trying to achieve.

[Boris_A]

Germany produces a quite large quantity of Pinot Noir or Spatburgunder.

Because of the climate and difficulty in ripening-- German Pinot Noirs tend to be

light bodied and lightly flavored.

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Given the recent changes in climate (think of 2003), there's no difficulty anymore in ripening Pinot Noir in Germany or Switzerland. The stiff pric tags are limited to a handful famous producers only. One step below, you can find very nice "Burgundian" Pinot Noirs for very, very fair prices.

[JohnL]

Gordon:

not ALL pinot noirs from Germany are thin and uninteresting.

In fact I would argue that even though they are, for the most part, "Thin" they can, in fact, be "interesting."

Yes-there are a small number of producers who are applying Burgundian techniques --a recent development. Clonal selection is still something the Germans are wrestling with.

But what they can't change is the climate. The fact is, Germany is one of the greatest white wine producing countries on earth. They have made the most from their climate and soils.

The question re: Pinot Noir, is what is the potential? I think they are still attempting to answer that question.

(many countries the US included are still trying to answer that question!).

I think it is safe to say, though, that Germany will never be a major source of fine pinot noir. We will likely, continue see a few on shelves here and there in the US and they will probably remain curiosities. Ther very few top producers may, actually produce some very fine examples of pinot noir (weather permitting) but again, these will be the exceptions (there are always exceptions to the rule).

So while it would be wrong to "dismiss" German pinot noir out of hand, I do believe that the generalities applied to them are based in fact.

←

I'm the one who likes German pinots on this thread

I had a recent bottle of Kesslers Cuvee Max from DRC Clones and found it quite tasty and complex. Not exacty 10-15.00 bottles but what good Pinots are nowadays. I'd take 1 bottle of the Kessler over 6 bottles of Harley Ostini but that's just my taste. They may never reach the level of success of other regions but they are really passionate about what they're trying to achieve.

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I am curious as to why you compared the Kessler to Hartley Ostini?

I don't doubt that a few Germans are passionate about making pinot noir. But one must face the facts.

Pinot Noir is extremely difficult to grow and make good wine from. That means it is an expensive endeavor. I believe the Germans may be attempting to climb a very steep mountain here.

Everybody would love to make a pinot noir like La Tache and up to now, only the DRC has succeeded.

In the end, Germany is destined to be known, and rightly so, for what some select white wine grapes can achieve from their soils and climate.

[GordonCooks]

The Hartley Ostini is just a "Sideways" reference. For the record, I don't think the current german product is anywhere near Grand Cru Burgundy and I don't how this thread digressed into an argument.

[JohnL]

The Hartley Ostini is just a "Sideways" reference. For the record, I don't think the current german product is anywhere near Grand Cru Burgundy and I don't how this thread digressed into an argument. 

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No argument here!

I think that one should assess a wine on its own merits.

Comparisons are hard to avoid.

As a rule German pinot noir is made from grapes grown in a cool climate.

These wines tend toward higher acidity and less ripeness than those from warmer climes.

It would make more sense, and be more fair to compare German Pinot to other pinot's from similar cool climates--say red Sancerre. if one must make a comparison.

These wines have their positive attributes when well made.

Germany has made pinot noir for a long long time--just recently they have made attempts to improve the quality of the grapes (clonal selections) and the vinification techniques.

It is fair to say that they have probably not yet made their finest wines.