Côte d'Azur Riviera

[Nikolaus]

I would actually like to spend some words on this supposed "decline" of Vergé's Moulin de Mougins, an idea I definitely do not share. Who thinks this deserves a new forum topic? I'd be glad to start.

[Bux]

I'd be happy to read whatever you post. It's been a while since I've been anywhere near the Riviera. While I enjoyed the area when I traveled there on a budget as a student in our newlywed days, we've not returned often. I found the whole area much too over developed, but I suppose that's true all over. Mostly, we haven't returned recently because we have friends in the northwest and southwest of France and because Spain now calls as much as France. Thus, I won't have much to add and am not likely to have the chance to eat at the Moulin de Mougins, but I'd love to hear what you have to say about it. Bear in mind that we have far more lurkers than we have posters, as does any discussion board and that anything you write will serve a larger audience than is apparent.

[robert brown]

Nearly 25 years ago, I noticed a certain phenomenon in higher-end travel. It was that owners of certain high-profile hotel-restaurants believed that since their property is so idyllic, if not historic, they could abrogate the right to make their best efforts in providing good cuisine and service. My first realization of this occurred in 1978 at the sprawling (in terms of its size and the land it occupied) Chateau d’Artigny in Montbazon, south of Tours, which was the former residence of Francois Coty, the famous perfume maker. There my wife and I and six art-dealer colleagues had dinner and an overnight stay. The hotel and restaurant service was so bad and the food mediocre, that I wrote a letter listing my complaints to the owner, Rene Traversac, who was also at the time the president of the Relais & Châteaux organization. He invited me to return for a complimentary dinner and a night’s stay. From that experience I also learned about the emptiness of such gestures, for who would want to take the time and effort to return to an establishment one has learned is no fun to be in?

Such a place in my chosen area of France, the Cote d’Azur, which I always imagined to have similar attributes is the Chateau St. Martin in Vence. I have heard about it for many years, particularly so when a friend of mine was working for the now-discredited financier Marshall Cogan who about 20 years tried to buy it. I knew the Chateau San Martin was a place where well-heeled Americans who had little cultural curiosity piled into, much as they do at the Hotel du Cap on Cap d’Antibes or the Grand Hotel du Cap-Ferrat, spending their days at the pool and going to the no-longer “sure-fire” restaurants at night.

About a week ago my wife was craving for fresh fish with a sauce of “beurre blanc” and rice on the side. As her daughter was with us and had some family members who had stayed there, I phoned the Chateau St. Martin that afternoon and was assured by the maitre d’hotel, a Monsieur Lurue, that indeed we could have such a dish with our choice of sea bass, red snapper, mackerel, or sea bream. I then asked him how many orders per fish were there to which he replied “one”. I ordered two sea bass in case one of the three others in our group wanted it.

After a 40-minute drive from Nice that took us up in the hills behind Vence where the wealthy philistines staying at the Chateau St. Martin were far away from whom they consider native plebeians, we arrived at this grandioise Provencal stone chateau with immaculate grounds and the tallest cypresses I had ever seen. As soon as we walked in, an employee told my wife’s daughter’s friend and me that we needed to wear jackets, a requirement I had never been subjected to in any of the great provincial restaurants of France, especially during the worst heat wave since 1944. The man showed us to a closet where tried on several jackets. Having found ones that fit, we wore them onto the dining terrace and put them on the back of our chairs as soon as we sat down.

As I expected, Americans and British filled the dining area nearly entirely, probably more the latter since Americans are in short supply in the South of France for the second straight summer. Our table at the far end of the terrace gave us ideal positioning for enjoying the view over Vence and then of the sea far off in the distance. It no doubt made the inconsistent and less-than-attentive wine and water service more tolerable.

From the small number of choices, I began the meal with a lobe of foie gras served with a sauce of exotic fruits; my wife and her daughter with a tomato filled with eggplant and a martini glass of gazpacho and tomato sorbet; and the daughter’s friend with three small langoustines in a sauce that escapes my recollection. As it is with the typical Relais & Chateaux establishment that is primarily a hotel and not categorized by the organization as a “Relais Gourmand”, these dishes were acceptable, attractive, and, in the end, undistinguished.

At the beginning of the meal, we were able to order the sea bass for everyone. The waiters then brought four dishes (priced at 50 euros per ), each with a small cube of fish less than the size of my big toe, which was browned on the top and a bit overcooked inside. M. Lurue, the headwaiter, came over to see if the dish was to our liking. As I am known to do from time to time when I don’t get anything close to what I expect, I gave him both barrels. I told him this was indeed not what I expected and that I anticipated each of us receiving an entire sea bass filleted at the table, which is why I asked him how many orders did one fish provide. My disappointed wife, in what was a farewell dinner for her daughter, said we did not order a “pave” of sea bass. Lurue said that this was the way the chef prepared it and that it was too bad for us if we weren’t happy. He didn’t apologize and didn’t offer to change the dish or to make good in some way. He walked off, never to come any near us for the rest of the meal, nor to bid us goodbye and thank us for coming. I told the waiter in charge of our table that the maitre d’hotel had fibbed to me, and asked him what might we expect to make up for this. He answered “ a glass of dessert wine or after-dinner drink”, to which I replied that we never order these.

The waiter then served one tablespoon of sauce for each person from a sauceboat that was filled with the “beurre blanc”. Because the rice soaked up what little sauce he had given us, I asked for more sauce. No one brought over the sauceboat, and several minutes went by with my fish having become ambient temperature. After repeated assurances that the sauce was on its way, at least ten minutes had passed before the fresh sauce arrived at the table. We immediately realized that after dishing out such a parsimonious amount, the server had returned the sauce to the kitchen and thrown it out, leaving us to wait until someone prepared the sauce over again. When I told the waiter that the dishes had been ruined, he offered the lame rationale that covering what was left of the fish would magically become warm with the addition of sauce on top. Of course at this point, any honest restaurant would have offered to remake the dish.

After we were done with our main course, the waiter asked me if we wanted cheese. I asked him if was on the house, to which he said yes. Here I made the tactical blunder of taking him up on his offer, even though I was the only one accepting it. By doing so, I let the perpetrators off the hook and was roundly booed by my wife and her daughter. I imagine I could have been invited back for a couple of free meals if I held out, but, then again, what serious gourmand would want to?

The desserts were complicated and oversweet except for a classic chocolate soufflé. What should have been an idyllic “last supper” of the vacation was ruined by what is ruining eating in France for those who know and care about food: arrogance, dishonesty, patronizing treatment, and diminishing returns.

Four days later my wife and I were off to Tuscany and Liguria for a humdinger of a culinary excursion among the Italian chefs, restaurateurs, and those who serve whom we love so well.

.

[peterpumkino]

At the beginning of the meal, we were able to order the sea bass for everyone. The waiters then brought four dishes (priced at 50 euros per ), each with a small cube of fish less than the size of my big toe, which was browned on the top and a bit overcooked inside. M. Lurue, the headwaiter, came over to see if the dish was to our liking. As I am known to do from time to time when I don’t get anything close to what I expect, I gave him both barrels. I told him this was indeed not what I expected and that I anticipated each of us receiving an entire sea bass filleted at the table, which is why I asked him how many orders did one fish provide.

Robert, I love your posts and they have helped me enourmously but, in this case, I rather feel that you were wrong (in a way).

One should never 'assume' that you are going to get a complete fish unless you first ask and then inspect the fish as you would do in Italy. It is quite common in restaurants to serve Sea Bass exactly as you described it (in fact I went to a place for a second time that had been recommended on this site, Le Pousson in the New Forest near London - they call themselves a "restaurant with rooms", I went there with a small family group and it was really wonderful except for the fact that the chef was on holiday and the staff's attempts at portion control were over-enthusiastic and veered on the side of the restaurant - the chef apologized on his return and offered a superb complimentary dinner!) and it's actually quite succulent, but it's definately not a complete fish.

It certainly seemed that the Maitre D' handled the situation appalingly and with great arrogance and we can only hope that this incident results in egulateers avoiding this place. But never assume when it come to fish Robert!

[Bill Klapp]

At least the story has a happy ending (in Italia)!

[robert brown]

Bill, I will try to post something in the next few days. Peter, thanks so much. I'm about to step out, but your post raises some interesting points that I intend to discuss further. Thank you, both.

[peterpumkino]

At least the story has a happy ending (in Italia)!

Bill, gastronomic stories always have a happy ending in Italia!

[peterpumkino]

Peter,  thanks so much. I'm about to step out, but your post raises some interesting points that I intend to discuss further. Thank you, both.

Robert, look forward to your comments.

[Jonathan Day]

I have followed Nikolaus's suggestion and started a new post in this forum, on the Moulin de Mougins. I am keen to hear members' comments.

I respectfully disagree with Dr Hardt / winesceptre about La Table d'Edmond. It can be a pleasant place to dine. But its branded "raviellis" are just good ravioli, neither more nor less. As good as Edmond's ravioli are, I have had far better elsewhere in France and especially in Italy. By "better" ravioli, I mean pasta with superior taste and texture, more flavourful fillings, and more balanced sauces. Nor is it the best restaurant in the village. That prize, in my book, goes to Le Bistrot de Mougins, for traditional food, and La Terrasse, for more modern preparations. La Ferme de Mougins is also very good, but it is not in the old village.

[robert brown]

Peter, you are right about how many restaurants show you the whole fish and then prepare it tableside. This happens often at restaurants of simplicity as well as at serious restaurants. Of course I should have really grilled the maitre d'hotel on the phone, but my asking how many orders to a fish should have evoked a forthright, detailed response. I suspect he knew a whole fish was what I had in mind, but did not want to lose my business. Also lurking in the background is the matter of does the Chateau St. Martin keep fresh fish on hand. Preparing it they way they did and not showing or serving the whole fish certainly begs the question. Add to this the incident with the "beurre blanc" and you begin to see the MO of the place.

If you spend a lot of time on the French Riviera, youn begin to notice how many businesses survive on conscientiously ripping off foreigners, especially Americans. They assume that none of us know, but forget that many Americans are the most aware of consumers. I hope these enterprises are all suffering now, those that deserve to.

I am forwarding this thread to the management of the Chateau St. Martin. I'll let everyone know what response, if any, they come back with

[peterpumkino]

Point taken (especially the point re. ripping off the tourists - this happens in Italy too, but I don't think the Italians, generally, rip-off the tourists, they just assume that we do not know anything about eating!). Look forward to reading the response from Chateux St. Martin.

[Bux]

No one puts out their best work for someone they think doesn't appreciate what they are doing. The reverse, of course, is also true. People will work harder to please you if they think you appreciate it. It's almost a given that in many serious restaurants in both France and certainly NY that you will get the best service and food if you can communicate your appreciation of food to the staff. In a truly serious fine restaurant that difference is one of shading that might not even be noticed by the average diner.

What happens to the restaurant that starts off with the intent of being a fine restaurant and attracts a crowd that doesn't appreciate the food, is that over time the standards slip. They find they can increase profits by serving day old frozen fish and no one notices. When the clientele doesn't care, it reduces the incentive for the staff to care. Eventually that attitude prevails in the dining room as well as in the kitchen. Eventually there's no one left in the restaurant who cares about anything but the short term income. For the most obvious reasons, it happens most often where there's a non-repeating clientele such as in tourists areas, or where the crowd comes for other reasons -- comfort and luxurious accommodations, not infrequently.

In the Loire last year, I was rather astounded to read the brochure for Domain des Haut Loire, a rather plush country inn, after dining at their restaurant. The glossy colorful brochure hardly mentioned the food, which was exceptionally good -- two well deserved stars. I can only assume they have a word of mouth attracting gastronomes to the tables, but that they need to advertise the other charms. I still found it remarkable that the level of food was so high. In spite of fact that the cuisine was under played in the brochure, (and to be honest, it was mentioned) everything about the place said they cared about food. The guy who took my bags from the car (and it's the kind of place where everyone seems to work sixteen hours a day) asked where we had stayed the night before and when I told him, his eyes lit up as he remarked that we must have eaten well there. The captain also sparkled when we engaged him in conversation about the food. I'd be curious to know how the rest of the guests related to the cuisine, but everything about the place said it was a connoisseur's destination. I guess my point here is that sometimes people excel in what they do for reasons of pride and self respect.

[robert brown]

Bux, you described the phenomenon perfectly and with great articulation. I even forwarded it to the director of the Chateau St. Martin, from whom I am still waiting a reply.

[vmilor]

My only comment to Bux' s sound reasoning is that sometimes people like me don't dress down an establishment like St. Martin not because they have not understood the level but because they think the place is beyond redeem and they will never return so it is preferable to say "fine" in a noncommittal, brusque way and enjoy the scenery. The restaurant then may mistake this nonchalant attitude for ignorance or approval. Of course Robert's way is better and more responsible but it is also rare.

The half joking France-Italy comparison is too simplistic. About a month ago I ate at Carletto in Bordighera and had a dismal seafood meal. Nothing was fresh, and/or well executed. Now this place is one of the temples of seafood gastronomy in Italy and I am sure in the past they deserved their reputation. Other tables the night we ate there consisted of Italian tourists with guides on their table( Michelin, Espresso) and I noticed that the table next to us got a bigger( fresher??) version of grilled gamberi of San Remo. I have never seen such a thing happening in France and in my experience I would say that Italians compared to French tread more on the extremes. Sometimes they are unbelieveably friendly and generous and other times they apply double standards to outsiders and this does not bother their consciousness. In this sense I think of Italians more like my own countrymen(Turkish--we may also be very generous but also can rip off unsuspecting foreigners) whereas French are more like Americans IMHO.

[peterpumkino]

The half joking France-Italy comparison is too simplistic.  About a month ago I ate at Carletto in Bordighera and had a dismal seafood meal.  Nothing was fresh,  and/or well executed.  Now this place is one of the temples of seafood gastronomy in Italy and I am sure in the past they deserved their reputation.  Other tables the night we ate there consisted of Italian tourists with guides on their table( Michelin, Espresso) and I noticed that the table next to us got a bigger( fresher??) version of grilled gamberi of San Remo.  I have never seen such a thing happening in France and in my experience I would say that Italians compared to French tread more on the extremes.  Sometimes they are unbelieveably friendly and generous and other times they apply double standards to outsiders and this does not bother their consciousness. In this sense I think of Italians more like my own countrymen(Turkish--we may also be very generous but also can rip off unsuspecting foreigners) whereas French are more like Americans IMHO.

Hmmmh. French more like Americans? Hmmmh.

I'll say again that I don't think that Italians go out of their way to cook badly for tourists, they honestly just think that we don't know the difference and therefore what's the point. I was in a touristy restaurant in Courmayer and told the waiter that I wasn't a tourist so I didn't want tourist food. He served my pasta with a knife! When I asked him (again in fluent Italian) what the knife was for he really looked confused!

Incidentally I love the food in Turkey, much better than in Greece (that'll get the Greeks going!).

Edited July 29, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[vmilor]

Incidentally I love the food in Turkey, much better than in Greece (that'll get the Greeks going!).

Please be my guest if you make it here. You will be most welcome and I will do my best to charm your lady friends.

[cigalechanta]

I don't remember the name of the rest in St Tropez , it's the hight point overlooking the harbor, that we had a great Bourride.

[winyang]

i realize there are a couple threads about riviera-area eating, but they've not covered quite what i'm looking for. since we're going to be in and around nice this weekend, we'd like to stay well away from cannes (as the festival is on) and may perhaps head inland to check out a few of the villages perchés situated in the var or further out by grasse. any suggestions where to eat, say, in grimaud? the esterel?

we're looking for anything authentic, honest, or really beautiful -- high end, low end, it doesn't matter as long as there's someone in the BOH with soul that comes through in the food. we'll have a car and would prefer not to schlep out too far (not >1.5 hrs) from nice. i'm not particularly convinced about chez bruno in lorgues, but if someone can make a case for it, maybe we'll check it out.

has anyone been to maximin's restaurant near vence? does that seem feasible during film festival-season? i was also thinking of one of the under-the-radar places in mougins but that is almost certainly too close for comfort. (for the record, i found moulin de mougins fairly unimpressive, as far as the food goes -- i went in jan '03.)

any takers?

[menton1]

Jonathan Day and I made 2 discoveries on the same street in the hills above Nice-- This is in Rimiez, just above Nice, but not very far. A totally different environment from Nice, though, very countrified. One is Restaurant Simon and the other is Rendez-Vous des Amis. Reviews and directions HERE

I agree with you about Bruno, recent reports have it both overpriced and overrated; Some of the towns you mention are quite far afield, and are quite a drive from Nice environs--- Grimaud is a beautiful medieval town with some excellent restaurants, but might be close to 2 hours away; Lorgues is also over 1.5 hours. You might try some places east of Nice, in Villefranche and Beaulieu. Just be sure you won't be anywhere near the area when the Monaco Grand Prix is on!!

Edited May 10, 2005 by menton1 (log)

[Jonathan Day]

You are wise to avoid Cannes during the festival.

The Moulin de Mougins changed hands last year; the new chef is Alain Llorca. I've had both promising and not so promising meals there. In Mougins, try Le Bistrot de Mougins (in the village); Côté Mougins (outside it). In Biot, Les Arcades is simple but good. At the higher end, Hostellerie Jérome in La Turbie can be good. I have had some very good meals at Jacques Chibois's place in Grasse, Bastide St Antoine, though some don't like it.

I've recently been disappointed by Maximin's place in Vence. The service has been haughty and the food uneven.

All the high end places (almost anything listed in Michelin) will be crowded during the festival.

I haven't been to the Auberge de la Madone, in Peillon, in several years, but it was once quite wonderful. Peillon is a tiny perched village, high in the hills above Nice.

Search a bit on this forum and you'll find more reports!

[winyang]

just a follow-up:

because of a harrowing run-in with one of Nice's more unsavory (pun intended) elements (that is, while at a stoplight in the northern outskirts, a kid opened the passenger door of the car, ducked in and grabbed a handbag that was sitting at my feet and took off on his friend's scooter before we even had time to react; this, plus the loss of all such important items one keeps in handbags, followed by a few hours at the police station, etc.), we were too late to have dinner in Nice and also no longer had the appetites.

we also, as you had helpfullyi pointed out, realized that it was probably not going to work to go as far as the var, but we had a lovely meal in vieux vence -- restaurant la litote. not mind-blowing or worth a journey necessarily, but sincerely prepared and a little more ambitious than expected (i had duck tartare and a foie gras terrine with mango and an unmemorable roast chicken with a memorable piment sauce, and my friend had an excellent sea bass -- gauche as it is to order such a dish -- with a carefully considered spring vegetable accompaniment). the croustillant d'agrumes was a winner for dessert. the crème brulée safran was pretty sucky.

restaurant la litote

5, rue de l'éveché

06140 vence

04.93.24.27.82

for anyone who's looking for a town that's not dead on a sunday (as most of italy usually is -- i can't really account for much of france), vence is really vibrant, with markets and all local shops opened.

i must have gone to moulin de mougins before the changeover to llorca, as it looked totally different from the last time i went -- for one thing, vergé's name wasn't plastered everywhere (but llorca's was). the guy at the cave was very nice and helpful and i thought their wine selection pretty well-priced, considering.

why is wine so expensive in restaurants in france? (not to veer off the thread. this can be considered a rhetorical question.) i don't remember it being so markedly high the last time i was there. italy is such a bargain for the oenophile in comparison.

[Swisskaese]

We are going to stay in a house in Cap d'Antibes for 10 days in May and are going to be driving around Provence.

Any suggestions for good restaurants that won't hurt our pocket book.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[Swisskaese]

Anyone have any suggestions for Provence? We are flying into Marseilles, staying in Avignon for a couple of days and then going to stay in Cap d'Antibes.

[menton1]

I can suggest several places from Nice east to the border; would that be within your range?

Avignon area restaurants has just been discussed on another thread here.

[Swisskaese]

I can suggest several places from Nice east to the border; would that be within your range? 

Avignon area restaurants has just been discussed on another thread here.

←

Yes, Menton, that would be most helpful. And, like you, I prefer middle-ground, family-run bistros. We can't afford the high-end restaurants.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)