Pain a l'ancienne

[bradyvickers]

Hello everyone,

I've been baking Peter Reinhart's Pain a l'ancienne for the past two days. I searched egullet and read some threads about it. Especially the one that focused on the Bread Bakers Apprentice. Anyway, I am having a little trouble. I've followed his formula, but am not getting the holes I want. The bread turns out good, great crust, and the crumb is irregular, but more like a good baguette. So anyway, I was wondering what others had experienced. I have thought about increasing the water, but it is pretty wet already. I weight my ingredients so It should be very close to the books specs. I guess it always seems like my doughs need to be wetter that what books recommend.

Also in BBA for Pain a l'ancienne PR has you mix for 5-6 minutes. It says the bread should pull away from the sides of the bowl but stick to the bottom. How do you guys interpret this? If this happens right away I assume I should mix for the full 5 or 6 minutes to develop gluten, right? Also, how much should stick to the bottom of the bowl? I usually look for about 2". Anyway, just wanted to hear your guys' thoughts on these things.

Thanks,

Brady

PS - I will post some pics once I get em.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Are you getting it wet enough it should stick to your hand but come away cleanish, I've sent many a commis to get the dough out of the bowl and as it does have a high water content, there's a knack to handling it.

The commis normally end up with dough upto there arm pits, yet to see some one who's use to handling wet dough they just pick it up and drop it into there proving bowl.

As for your specific recipe sorry cant help but if you're after big holes it will need to be a wet dough! Also blown, possibly only one prove or certainly not a heavy knock down your not trying to even out the establishing holes for this affect.

Ciabbata is proved once on a bench and dropped onto a hot tray the dough for this is very wet almost liquid just holding it's shape.

Edited to add

All flour has different hydration qualities, your's might need more water, proffesional bakers have spec sheets on flour so they know how much water a flour can take. Wouldn't be surprised if weather affect this as well.

Edited June 21, 2005 by PassionateChefsDie (log)

[bradyvickers]

I forgot to add a few things.

This dough retards in the fridge overnight. After that it is suppose to sit on the counter for a couple hours until fully doubled. But usually it doubles overnight in the fridge for me.

So I have been taking it out of the fridge and shaping it, and then baking it off. I get a alot of oven spring, and the bread is good, just not enough holes!!! :)

Anyway, thanx PassionateChefsDie. The dough needs to be wetter, im sure. It's not as wet as a Ciabatta, but I'm trying to get Ciabatta holes, hmm.....

Anyone else worked with this dough? What have been your experiences... I really like it alot, its soo easy. Mix it up, retard overnight, shape and bake. No proofing!

[devlin]

I forgot to add a few things.

This dough retards in the fridge overnight.  After that it is suppose to sit on the counter for a couple hours until fully doubled.  But usually it doubles overnight in the fridge for me. 

So I have been taking it out of the fridge and shaping it, and then baking it off.  I get a alot of oven spring, and the bread is good, just not enough holes!!!  :)

Anyway, thanx PassionateChefsDie.  The dough needs to be wetter, im sure.  It's not as wet as a Ciabatta, but I'm trying to get Ciabatta holes, hmm.....

Anyone else worked with this dough?  What have been your experiences...  I really like it alot, its soo easy.  Mix it up, retard overnight, shape and bake.  No proofing!

←

Yes, I've worked with it quite a lot, and I'd agree you might want a much wetter dough. But I was wondering what sort of flour you're using as well. Another point is handling, perhaps. It should be handled very little, very gently.

[SethG]

You might find you get bigger holes if you mix it less.

[schneich]

getting the big holes is achieved by:

a) a very wet dough

b) handling the dough with alot of care after retarding, no punchdown whatsoever!

c) NOT overproofing the dough. dont wait untíl you get EXACTLY double in size

on a 1 kg loaf for me 2h of proofing after retarding was fine, huge ovenspring...

d) a VERY VERY hot oven + spritzing 2 to 3 times to avoid early crusting

all the things in combination work, none of them alone !!

cheers

t.

[bradyvickers]

Yes, I've worked with it quite a lot, and I'd agree you might want a much wetter dough. But I was wondering what sort of flour you're using as well. Another point is handling, perhaps. It should be handled very little, very gently.

←

I'm using Gold Medal, "Better for Bread" flour. It's unbleached bread flour.

Another thing I wonder is when I turn the bread out of the container it retards in, how I can decrease it degassing as much as possible. I do it slowly and use a plastic scraper to coax it out....but does anyone else have a better technique. Maybe it's the container. I use a square straight sided 4 qt. Cambro container.

[bradyvickers]

getting the big holes is achieved by:

a) a very wet dough

b) handling the dough with alot of care after retarding, no punchdown whatsoever!

c) NOT overproofing the dough. dont wait untíl you get EXACTLY double in size

    on a 1 kg loaf for me 2h of proofing after retarding was fine, huge ovenspring...

d) a VERY VERY hot oven + spritzing 2 to 3 times to avoid early crusting

all the things in combination work, none of them alone !!

cheers

t.

←

With mine the dough has already doubled in the fridge. I don't let it continue fermenting at all. I turn it out, shape it, and bake.

[schneich]

use a well oiled bowl, i should slip out easily....

DONT shape the bread, your degassing!!!

instead out of the fridge, into a breadmold

thats what good ol lionel poilane did...

guckst du hier --) http://www.armchair.com/store/gourmet/baki...tformclose1.jpg

cheers

t.

[schneich]

after the fridge you MUST proof to get the yeast going again... you cant throw the icecold dough into the oven

t.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Found this thread starts with the recipe your talking about Book title thread

[jackal10]

Yes you can throw icecold dough into the oven. You even get more spring that way, since the gas has has a greater temperature expansion.

As others have said, the wetter the dough, the bigger the holes. His formula is about 80% hydration which is pretty wet.

For bigger holes you want to avoid knocking out the gas. Bread was originally knocked down to get a fine, even texture. You are aiming for the opposite.

Personally I would bulk prove for say an hour (four hours for sourdough dough), then shape and retard overnight before baking, rather than retard before shaping. I would follow tradition and retard/prove the dough supported by linen couche - floured linen, like an oven cloth folded between each baguette, or use a non-stick baguette form if you don't mind the pattern of holes on the bottom. The dough should be so wet that unless supported it will spread. The less handling once shaped, the better - just invert onto a peel or baking tin and put in the oven.

A lot of bottom heat, like a hot baking stone, in direct contact with the bread helps.

[vengroff]

I've found the key to shaping without degassing is to barely shape at all. Just pinch the dough apart and then the mere act of lifting each baguette onto the peel will stretch it into shape. There are some photos of the look of the dough at each stage in this post.

[bradyvickers]

I've found the key to shaping without degassing is to barely shape at all.  Just pinch the dough apart and then the mere act of lifting each baguette onto the peel will stretch it into shape.  There are some photos of the look of the dough at each stage in this post.

←

Vengroff-

I saw your post earlier. In fact that thread got me started on Pain a l'ancienne. The pictures are great. I followed the same technique and my dough was as wet or wetter, but I still didn't get the holes you did. I'm wondering if when I turn the dough out of the bowl if I am degassing too much. Not sure of any other way to go about it though. I guess I might try going a little wetter. I also think I need to make my refrigerator colder because the dough doubles overnight in the fridge which I think is a little too fast.

[PassionateChefsDie]

I've found the key to shaping without degassing is to barely shape at all.  Just pinch the dough apart and then the mere act of lifting each baguette onto the peel will stretch it into shape.  There are some photos of the look of the dough at each stage in this post.

←

Vengroff-

I saw your post earlier. In fact that thread got me started on Pain a l'ancienne. The pictures are great. I followed the same technique and my dough was as wet or wetter, but I still didn't get the holes you did. I'm wondering if when I turn the dough out of the bowl if I am degassing too much. Not sure of any other way to go about it though. I guess I might try going a little wetter. I also think I need to make my refrigerator colder because the dough doubles overnight in the fridge which I think is a little too fast.

←

I might help though for a round loaf, I found my plastic bowl with oil smeared around i works. But before dropping the dough in just gently smear a little more onto the dough off your hands, drop it into bowl make sure the dough is moving. Then prove when you scared of proving it any more make sure your dough is loose by rolling the bowl, if it's leaving the sides and sliding fine, now invert and drop onto your hot surface.

Jackal10 has helped me loads and is a source of knowledge I agree that you will get a better spring straight from the fridge the same principle as for puff pastry. So the fact its proving wont affect it, but dragging it out of a container will have a bad affect, I changed bowls and have been mastering sour dough, I would try this before trying to shape and move dough just drop it straight out.

[schneich]

Yes you can throw icecold dough into the oven. You even get more spring that way, since the gas has has a greater temperature expansion.

As others have said, the wetter the dough, the bigger the holes.  His formula is about 80% hydration which is pretty wet.

For bigger holes you want to avoid knocking out the gas. Bread was originally knocked down to get a fine, even texture. You are aiming for the opposite.

Personally I would bulk prove for say an hour (four hours for sourdough dough), then shape and retard overnight before baking, rather than retard before shaping. I would follow tradition and retard/prove the dough supported by linen couche - floured linen, like an oven cloth folded between each baguette, or use a non-stick baguette form if you don't mind the pattern of holes on the bottom. The dough should be so wet that unless supported it will spread. The less handling once shaped, the better - just invert onto a peel or baking tin and put in the oven.

A lot of bottom heat, like a hot baking stone, in direct contact with the bread helps.

←

from what i know nobody who takes baking bread seriously throws a chilled dough into the oven (including peter rheinhardt) !!! your theory of gas expansion lacks the fact that the yeast who creates the gas in the first place is dormant at fridge temperatures ergo no gas ;-)

cheers

t.

Edited June 22, 2005 by schneich (log)

[jackal10]

Nope: Reinhart is not always very accurate. The gas cell formation has happened by the time it goes in the oven, and by the time the dough has cooled to fridge temperature; most of the oven spring is from gas expansion and steam, not new gas. Remember the dough is over half water.

Dough is a very poor conductor of heat. Taking the dough out of the fridge and letting it stand at room temperature for an hour or two to warm up results in overproving the outside, while the centre still remains comparatively cold.

[schneich]

the gas expansion isnt as much as you think, its only 20% or so. also by baking an icecold dough you will either overbake the crust or underbake the crumb ;-)

for me the recipes of peter rheinhardt alsways worked, also when i visited a lot of parisian bakeries over the years, i had the chance to learn some of their hints and none of them throw icecold dough into the oven either :-)

t.

[jackal10]

Well it works better for me.

Few traditional bakeries retard the dough either...

[schneich]

in paris most of the famous bakeries retard the dough !

t.

[PassionateChefsDie]

From my understanding about retarding dough this is to develop flavour reduce the taste of the yeast. It has no affect on the total prove or blow in the oven in comparison to a dough that hasn't(It also makes a wet dough easier to handle).

For sour dough you're retarding to get flavour as my mother has plenty of flavour I've stopped retarding.

I may be wrong, but I see no difference except flavour between the doughs. I find using dried yeast I can achieve the same affect by using less yeast and a longer prove on the top. I was lead to believe that 1oz of fresh yeast will blow 10ibs of flour given enough time.

As you're normally putting a piece of old dough into your new batch this is what your developing(I believe the term is levian).

As for retarding on a commercial scale would you want to get in at midnight to start baking when all you had to do was make the dough earlier, could you imagine the fridge space you'd need to bake it straight from the fridge.

[vengroff]

In terms of handling, I generally retard the dough in a fairly heavily oiled stainless steel bowl. Shallow ones are better if you have them. To extract it, I first cover the bench with a heavy dusting of flour, then use a stiff plastic spatula--not one or the rubber ones--which has been dipped in ice water. The one I have is curved to match the contour of the inside of the bowl, and does an excellent job of separating it from the bowl without sticking or stretching. If you flip the bowl as you rotate the spatula around, the dough drops right onto the bench. It takes practice, but it works once you get the hang of it, and there is little or no degassing.

I've considered shaping before retarding as suggested above, but I've never actually tried it. I'll give it a shot some time soon.

On the issue of coming up to room temperature, the blob of dough is usually only a few centimetres thick, so there isn't that much problem with the center still being ice-cold and the outside overproofing. 60-90 minutes seems to be the right amount of time in most cases. Two hours is usually too much, at least in my kitchen.

[bradyvickers]

Made another batch yesterday, but I left it on the counter too long. It overproofed and when I turned it out all the structure was gone. The dough couldn't handle the expansion and had little oven spring. It was bad.

Anyway made another batch tonight, and am going to try it tomorrow. I increased the water. This batch is 28 oz flour and 22 oz water. Thats almost 79% water....pretty wet. Anyway we will see tomorrow how things go. It may be so slack that shaping will be quite hard.....

I'll let you guys know...

Also, Vengroff, thanks for the info. I have a shallow stainless steel bowl, but it seems like the dough sticks somewhat no matter what i do. When I turn it out I use a rubber spatula and sort of scrap the sides as a turn the bowl over. I can see the dough stretch a little where it meets the bowl. Not sure how I can make it work any better. I've tried increasing the oil in the bowl, but that didn't help. What kind of spatula is it that you use? Don't know if i've ever seen a curved stiff spatula.

[jackal10]

Dust with rice flour for easy release

[bradyvickers]

Well today I backed my wetter dough. The holes were a little bigger, but still not big enough. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. It is really frustrating. I guess I must be degassing it too much. I have been breaking mine down into six baguettes size loafs, but maybe I should just do four bigger ones? I noticed that is what you did Vengroff. Did you make your dough wetter than the recipe calls for?

Any ideas any one else? I will try to get pictues of the crumb up tonight.