Anything but Chardonnay?

[JohnL]

This past weekend I opened up two bottles (on separate days) of Qupe Bien Nacido Chardonnay 2003.

It was wonderful--had complexity, lemon, apple, pineapple herbs, minerals--refreshing clean finish.

I have experienced and enjoy a number of white varietals and still come back to chardonnay appreciating it more each time.

Yes there are a lot of insipid versions out there but when a good maker gets it right-there is little competition.

(in the end I'd rather have a mediocre chardonnay than a mediocre sauvignon blanc if I had to).

I love chenin blanc: Loire whites are superb.

Sauvignon blanc is good too.

Riesling can be outstanding. (maybe riesling is -in the end-a match for chardonnay).

but

Chardonnay--is an amazing grape--it takes on terroir --it can be steely (chablis) or rich and opulent (Montrachet) and everything in between. There is a complexity possible few other whites can achieve.

Back to the Qupe: for under twenty bucks a good deal. Now this is not a great wine--it is a very good one --I like what Bob Lindquist does with chardonnay (pretty decent Syrah as well).

It is just nice to find a good wine that delivers more than just a pleasant drinking experience.

["T"]

It takes a brave person to say they drink chard.

I will stand beside you and proclaim, "my name is Steve and I also enjoy well made chardonnay">

Wow, I feel much better now.

I wish more producers would make unoaked versions. Think of the money they would save on barrels and or chips.

[JohnL]

Well you have "step one" down!

I don't think it is oak per se. It is often too much oak. Or not enough fruit to survive the oak.

When I hear people say they don't like chardonnay I ask what kind of chardonnay because--let's face it--some of the greatest white wines are made from it and there are so many styles.

I like sauvignon blanc too-- but it rarely -if ever-reaches the pinnacles that chardonnay is capable of.

anyway--

it is great that there are so many different wines out there from different grapes etc life may get boring but wine should never be!!!!

[Really Nice!]

I'll willingly drink chardonnay provided it never saw oak and did not go through malolactic fermentation.

[Andre]

White Burgundy is a very good example of Chard. flavors.

I love and respect many of them.

[Brad Ballinger]

I'll willingly drink chardonnay provided it never saw oak and did not go through malolactic fermentation. 

←

Never? You're eliminating some good Burgundies with that rule, and even a few California wines. I don't like out of balance oak in my wine either, but there are many winemakers who use oak well without overdoing it.

[JohnL]

Brad, I agree!

Oak has gotten a bad rap. So has chardonnay.

The Qupe I noted earlier has some oak but it is in balance with the other flavors the wine has. There are a number of fine chardonnays from California that are balanced and interesting: Foreman, Flowers, Mt Eden, Qupe to name a few.

I believe that what can make chardonnay so interesting is the same attribute that can give it a bad name.

That is-it is a grape that readily reflects the terroir and the skills or non skills of the winemaker.

That you can have chablis (oaked or unoaked) and Montrachet as well as lean earthy chards from Cal or the Northwest and big buttery oaky chards from the same places is amazing. All are strikingly different!

[Really Nice!]

I'll willingly drink chardonnay provided it never saw oak and did not go through malolactic fermentation. 

←

Never? You're eliminating some good Burgundies with that rule, and even a few California wines. I don't like out of balance oak in my wine either, but there are many winemakers who use oak well without overdoing it.

←

If you can name a few who use oak conservatively (or in my book, properly ) I'd sure like to know of them.

All too often with the chardonnay grape I get overloaded oak wood notes (oak, vanilla, smoke...) that I don't get the subtle notes of the grape. I want it to be subtle. I prefer notes produced by malic acid (green apple, flint/stone, citrus...). I have found that sur lie aging is also preferable. I also like older chardonnays to get some of that nut, mineral, honey-butter, and/or caramel notes that develop through time. Oh, and I like it to be more on the acidic side.

Sounds like an ad for match.com. Hmmm.... winematch.com?????

[jbonne]

as noted above, not drinking chardonnay basically eliminates all of white Burgundy. you'd be writing off Meursault, Chassagne-Montrachet and St. Aubin, just for a start. even some Chablis gains profound depth and richness in wood, like some of those from Laroche.

the problem, obviously, is with domestic chard, and i don't deny there's a problem. but the stainless versions (Morgan Metallico and Chehalem Inox being two that immediately come to mind) are often very good, and there are oak-enabled chards that have great balance and finesse. Clos du Val comes to mind, and i'm a huge fan of the chard from Abeja in Walla Walla. (good luck finding any, though.)

here's the problem: you have to look pretty hard to find balanced, integrated classically produced domestic chards. for my money, i'm going to turn to France most of the time, at least so long as there's good Chablis under $30 a bottle.

but i'm always on the hunt for more proof that domestic chard can recover from its oak addiction. never tried the Qupe chard, but Bob Lindquist has a terrific winemaking palate and his wines always have a rather European elegance to them.

[JohnL]

I'd recommend Neyers Chardonnays (Napa I believe) also Rick Foreman makes some wonderful "balanced" chardonnays.

Also--Kistler (though these need age and can be a tad overblown--also expensive).

Mt Eden is good-- and I haven't had one recently but Hanzell has made some great chards in the past.

For a while Ch St Michelle cold creek chardonnay's from Wash State were good (though there is definite oak here).

remember--a lot of Burgundies also can be very oaky (many need age).

I think the keys are:

location (a lot of chardonnay is planted in hot climes in Cal)

this seems to be improving as more vinyards are located closer to the coast etc.

winemakers who allow terroir to shine--use of native yeasts and good clonal selections etc etc.

I actually think there is a lot of very good chardonnay being made in california now--and yes there is still a lot of mediocre wine as well.

[docsconz]

I don't believe the issue is with the grape at all or even various production/vinifiaction methods. i believe that it is simply a matter of overexposure. The grape, especially the overoaked examples simply became ubiquitous and ultimately boring. There is no question that if one looks even a little that there are wonderful chards out there of various styles. My two american favorites are Kistler and Pahlmeyer. Both have oak, but layers of complexity and flavor as well.

[Brad Ballinger]

For oaked Chardonnay that I've actually enjoyed (as opposed to merely being not offended by), I can recommend the Qupe mentioned above (which only sees 20% new oak), as well as some from Au Bon Climat and Kongsgaard (both of which age well). And some Kistler wines with age on them approach the nut-mineral-honey that Really Nice! likes. Stony Hill is a big favorite. It sees oak, but it is neutral and not new oak. Hanzell is another favorite where most of the barrels are not new, only 20% of the wine is fermented in barrel, and only half of it undergoes malolactic. Yet another favorite is Long Vineyards, of which only half (if even that) of the oak used is new. Finally, it's been some time, but the ZD Chards are interesting -- no malo, but American oak.

In my opinion, all of those are worth trying before throwing out the baby with the Chardonnay.

As far as good non-Chablis Burgundy wines that see oak, that list is very, very long. The terroir and character of the wines is different than that of Chablis that one could argue an apples to oranges analogy.

[Brad Ballinger]

My two american favorites are Kistler and Pahlmeyer.

←

Come clean. You just like Pahlmeyer because of the seductive properties it held in the movie Disclosure.

[DTBarton]

I don't care for the overexposed and overused domestic chardonnay formula of too much oak, tropical fruits, too sweet. I wish my budget allowed me to enjoy white burgundies of better quality more often!

One to try for unoaked is Kim Crawford unoaked chardonnay from New Zealand, which has the unusual distinction of being my favorite wine with a screw top.

[JohnL]

I also like the kim crawford wines.

I guess my point is one can apply that formula: too much oak, tropical fruits, too sweet etc to a lot of Sauvignon Blancs lately!

The fact is--when a grape becomes popular there is over production and a lot of mediocre wine.

That goes for Cabernet, Merlot etc--though I am not a fanatic about terroir--there is no question that a lot of new world grapes are not planted in optimum soils.

For eg there is a lot of Cabernet Sauvignon planted in very hot dry areas that would better suit Rhone varietals etc.

The reason the French seem to get it right with a greater degree of success is their history (lots of time for trial and error) and insistance on the right varietal in the right place!

Winemaking plays a big part as well--I agree that too many wine makers are producing wines to a formula for success--lots of oak lots of tropical fruits etc.

[jbonne]

The reason the French seem to get it right with a greater degree of success is their history (lots of time for trial and error) and insistance on the right varietal in the right place!

←

there's something else going on too, at least by the theory i was assembling last night in the midst of barbeque chatter.

the presence of oak on French chardonnay certainly can be significance, but even the ripest Burgundy grapes are generally starting at a deficit of heat and light compared to even cool-site California fruit. (or WA fruit, given the mention of CSM Cold Creek above, which certainly is more moderate but still very much in the domestic oak-o-riffic vein.)

no question there's been hundreds of years to sort out which tiny patches of Cote de Beaune terroir provide the best white wine grapes, but anywhere in the Cote d'Or, you're going to be starting out with grapes that are usually fighting an uphill battle toward ripeness; acids will be high, flavors often focused on leaner fruits more than those fat tropical flavors. both old and new oak can help build this fruit into a great wine, while steel can offer the beautiful clarity of flavor you get with a

decent Chablis.

if you're starting with California fruit, you've got an enormous climatic advantage when it comes to ripeness. but it's going to be a ripe-flavor wine, and under the French model, probably requires a lot less time in barrel to evolve. if you put a French winemaking regimen on California fruit, you're going to end up with ... the now-typical California chardonnay.

consider two wines mentioned above -- the Qupe and the Abeja.

Qupe: 20% new oak, 9 months on lees.

Abeja: 50% new oak, 10 months aging, 6 on lees.

so far as i know, these aren't typical California regimes.

[JohnL]

Your "theory" does make a lot of sense.

I think that a number of California and Oregon and Washington wine makers are starting to hit on "regimes" that work better for their raw material instead of "mimic-ing" French techniques.

There are a number of more "interesting" wines coming from these producers.

I also see a movement to plant grapes in more temperate micro climes and to "stress" the vines more.

Hence a growth of coastal vinyards in California vs those on the valley floor in Napa for eg.

In the end, hopefully, we will get wines that are more interesting to drink that reflect more character and individuality.

[Rebel Rose]

I have always found chardonnays from Monterey, Santa Barbara and Edna Valley to be distinctly different in basic fruit character than Napa and Sonoma. Crisper, more green apple fruit, and usually styled with less oak.

[Rebel Rose]

Chardonnays are definitely responsive to, and expressive of, their soils and microclimates. It's interesting to compare chardonnays from a single vintage and region, but also across appellations and microclimates.

Maybe a good summer project for the Wine of the Week thread? In addition to wine tasting notes, we could pose theories on whether or not the area is suited to chardonnay production.

Our interesting side discussion on climate regions, microclimates, and degree days has been moved here.

[dinwiddie]

I used to be a member of the ABC crowd, but then some of the guys in the DC Cru brought some nice Chablis to one of the dinners, the next time it was a Landmark Chard, then a Lewis. I got hooked. I am one of those folks who doesn't mind having to buy some of the Martinelli chards to get the PNs I want (thought I do mind buying so much PN to get the better ones). Early on, I wasn't drinking the good CA chards, and I was turned off by the bitterness or the overblown oak that was present in the run of the mill cheap chard, but once I tasted the good ones, I was hooked.

[eipi10]

It's a good sign that so many people agree there's a problem. The oak and tropical fruit punch flavors in typical California chardonnay aren't just distracting, they're unctuous and nauseating to me.

[Brad Ballinger]

I used to be a member of the ABC crowd, but then some of the guys in the DC Cru brought some nice Chablis to one of the dinners, the next time it was a Landmark Chard, then a Lewis.  I got hooked.  I am one of those folks who doesn't mind having to buy some of the Martinelli chards to get the PNs I want (thought I do mind buying so much PN to get the better ones).  Early on, I wasn't drinking the good CA chards, and I was turned off by the bitterness or the overblown oak that was present in the run of the mill cheap chard, but once I tasted the good ones, I was hooked.

←

FYI, Landmark is a huge user of huge oak.

[JohnL]

I like the Landmark wines quite a bit. Though oak is used these wines do not seem overly oaky to me.

Maybe this is the point.

Dominique Laurent is a proponant of oak (he uses "double oak") yet most of his Grand cru and primier cru wines do not taste "oaky" --yes there is oak present but the wines are certainly not out of balance and loads of fruit and terroir come through.

In the end-I believe it is the winemaker and his or her selections/choices that are most important.

ie: oak or no oak, how much oak, new or old barrels, toast or no toast, what kind of oak etc.

It comes down to (and always will): what's in the glass.

I believe that because oak is one of the more easily identified "flavors" in wine that people often "taste" it and tend to declare it: "this wine is oaky!"

When in fact, the wine in question is not "oaky".

I would also say that the tendancy toward "sweet" wines (Kendal Jackson) has little or nothing to do with oak and often results in cloying, out of balance and clumsy wines--this can happen to any varietal not just chardonnay and is the result of choices by the wine maker to appeal to people who like this type of wine (therer are obviously many).

Recently I have found that the first refuge from chardonnay (the ABC crowd "discovered") Sauvignon blanc has become the "new chardonnay" and many of these wines are also sweet and out of balance and cloying.

May just be that these characteristics appeal to a lot of people.