Trotter and Tramonto square off over Foie Gras

[derricks]

It takes a lot of time and trouble to grow a foie gras. For thousands of years, there have been people who considered the result to be worth the trouble. I don't think they asked the goose for an opinion, or if they did, the outcome of that conversation is lost in the mists of time. In any case, foie producers continued to ply their trade undaunted until the modern age, when it occurred to people that maybe the duck doesn't enjoy the process after all.

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The ethical debate about foie gras goes back demonstrably until 1200 or 1300 or so (I'm not near my notes), and possibly back to 200 B.C. (again, working off memory). A Jewish mystic had a dream about that time (200B.C.) that a later rabbi (1200 or 1300) interpreted to mean the Jews would have to pay a price in the afterlife for the way they had treated the geese for foie gras (for context: ducks were barely used until 1950 or so, when the Mulard was developed. also note that Jews were the main producers of foie gras for close to 2000 years).

Of course, they didn't have cable TV, widely published newsletters, or the Internet in which to spread the debate. Not to mention cameras and video cameras to show the process to a population.

Just to say that the debate is only "new" in terms of its volume and dispersion.

[daniellewiley]

I am willing to believe that bourdain never really meant that Charlie Trotter cooks like he has 'never been fucked'...just like Charlie Trotter never meant what he said about cooking Rick Tramonto's liver.

Didn't he say "never been fucked properly"?

I bet he meant it.

[Bux]

What you are essentially saying above is that Chef Trotter should have 'vetoed' the wishes of Heston B/Tetsuya/diners who expect foie gras(possibly) to serve/enjoy because he doesnt want to serve foie gras himself?

In other words, you are upset because he didnt trample upon the rights of others to cook or eat foie gras.

Hmm..

←

Hmmm... I wonder how many recognize the right to cook anything in another chef's kitchen. No matter, I've interpreted Tony's arguments to say that he believes that if Trotter were a man of his own convictions, he would have refused to allow foie gras to be cooked and served in the restaurant that bears his name and represents his life's work. Perhaps he'd also say that neither of the two guest chefs would have refused to honor his request not to serve foie gras if asked. I don't necessarily agree with Tony on either point, but I find myself forced to defend his right not to have his words twisted into false arguments. Putting "other words" in Tony's mouth is exactly what I see as derailing the discussion by forcing others to correct you before they can get on with the discussion at hand or worse yet encouraging others to argue in a tangent thread.

Had the thread not been derailed so often and not required intervention, I might have better been able to respond in a more timely manner to suggest that I don't find it hypocritical for Trotter to decide not prepare foie gras, but to allow guest chefs to use his kitchen to prepare it. I would of course, expect a non-hypocritical Charlie Trotter to speak out in public against any proposed governmental ban just as he spoke out in his restaurant by sheltering the preparation and serving of foie gras. It's certainly not hypocritcal for defenders of the foie to note that Charlie Trotter will aid and abet those seeking to prepare foie gras and give comfort and shelter to them. Actions speak louder than words. He's apparently uncomfortable with serving the delicacy, can't really justify it and finds it inappropriate, yet he's open to the possiblity he's wrong and does not seek to interfere with ability of others to do so.

[chefzadi]

I am willing to believe that bourdain never really meant that Charlie Trotter cooks like he has 'never been fucked'...just like Charlie Trotter never meant what he said about cooking Rick Tramonto's liver.

Didn't he say "never been fucked properly"?

I bet he meant it.

←

Yes he did. I think it's better to have never been fucked than it is too have been fucked improperly. At least the never fucked know they have never been fucked. Whereas those who have been fucked improperly might be deluded into believing that they know what a proper fuck should be.

[chefzadi]

Hmmm... I wonder how many recognize the right to cook anything in another chef's kitchen. No matter, I've interpreted Tony's arguments to say that he believes that if Trotter were a man of his own convictions, he would have refused to allow foie gras to be cooked and served in the restaurant that bears his name and represents his life's work. Perhaps he'd also say that neither of the two guest chefs would have refused to honor his request not to serve foie gras if asked. I don't necessarily agree with Tony on either point

I agree with Tony on these points. But I don't know if Tony made these points or if Bux did. Too much thinking for me.

Let's imagine Pierre Gaignaire or Alain Ducasse making statements like Trotter. They might as well be Ginger on Gilligan's Island.

Edited April 9, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[FaustianBargain]

Actually, there is some confusion here on the legislation.

The proposed Chicago ordinance was reported on April 7 in the Trib as I stated in my orginal post http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=891590 . That ordinance seeks to ban all Chicago restaurants from serving foie gras.

Now the state of Illinois had recently passed a bill (that coincided with original Mark Caro article and was mentioned in it) that made it illegal to produce foie gras in Illinois, but did attempt to interfere with anyone's dining preferences.

←

Thanks for bringing that up.

Illinois legislators are currently considering S.B. 413, introduced by Senator Kathleen Wojcik (R, 28). This legislation would prohibit force feeding birds. This cruel method is used to turn duck and goose livers into the "delicacy" known as pâté de foie gras. S.B. 413 unanimously passed the Senate Executive Committee on Wednesday, March 9th. It will soon be considered on the Senate floor. Your help is needed now!

Liver and let live related to Sen.Wojcik's bill. Mark Caro's article came hot behind the heels of Sen.Wojcik's bill.

Trotter, as ronnie_suburban suggested had nothing to do with Alderman or Wojcik's proposed legislation. Caro approached Trotter. Caro carried the messages from Tramonto to Trotter. The tilt of his article was on Trotter's comments rather than

The new one proposing a ban on consumption/possession of foie gras is not yet passed. That one would be Sen. Joe Alderman in Ill.

The proposal to ban possession/consumption of foie gras was already considered prior to the Trotter interview. From here

At the end of the day, it makes no difference. Unless someone is looking for someone else to blame.

Legislation also is being considered in Oregon, New York, Illinois and Massachusetts that would make it a criminal act even to possess the delicacy. Activists recently persuaded about 10 restaurants to stop serving foie gras in

Pittsburgh.

edit: additional data here dated March 14, 2005. SB 861 in Oregon was proposed March 7, 2005, iirc. The issue of banning foie gras production and banning possession blurs. Sen. Wojcik, for example, assured when her bill was passed that restaruants can continue to serve foie gras, but there was no space in Ill to set up foie gras farms.

Her words:

Her legislation was approved without opposition by a Senate committee Wednesday and moves to the Senate floor. No businesses operate in Illinois that force-feed birds. Wojcik wants to keep it that way. The practice was recently banned in California, and many European countries have done the same.

"No one is going to be harmed in Illinois," Wojcik said. "The restaurants can still purchase their foie gras. All we're saying is that if you're planning on coming to Illinois and starting a business to do something like this, then the door is closed."

I hope this helps.

Edited April 9, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[FaustianBargain]

You don't rise to Trotter's level of success without knowing how the world works. Or shrinking from the occasionally unpleasant task of vetoing the wishes of others or  bending others to your will--as anyone who's  worked with Charlie will be happy to tell you.  As any CHEF will tell you. Deconstruct all you like. We have long ago  disappeared down the rabbit hole ..and left the real Trotter behind.

What you are essentially saying above is that Chef Trotter should have 'vetoed' the wishes of Heston B/Tetsuya/diners who expect foie gras(possibly) to serve/enjoy because he doesnt want to serve foie gras himself?

In other words, you are upset because he didnt trample upon the rights of others to cook or eat foie gras.

Hmm..

←

I want to know why, FB, in your world, people either "veto" others wishes or "trample upon the rights of others"?

Please read bourdain's screed. I was only repeating his words.

Do you assume that there is no legitimate give and take between equals in the cooking world? That Chef Trotter couldn't simply have asked the other chefs if it was possible to replace foie, given his (Trotter's) current feelings on the subject?

Well, is there any legitimate give and take in the foie gras community? Why dont you guys fly to France or to Canada to enjoy your foie gras?

Do you think Chefs Blumenthal and Wakuda would stamp their feet, hold their breath and fall down on the floor if asked to take their host's wishes into account? I doubt it. Most adults don't react like that.

This is such shoddy debating practice.

<SNIP>

[bourdain]

"Ok, people. Think what you may..but there is a code in the kitchen. In professional kitchens, you DO NOT tell the chef what to cook. You DO NOT tell him how to cook it. You DO NOT criticise the techinique. "

The world after culinary school is going to be a very, very hard place for this writer.

[FaustianBargain]

"Ok, people. Think what you may..but there is a code in the kitchen. In professional kitchens, you DO NOT tell the chef what to cook. You DO NOT tell him how to cook it. You DO NOT criticise the techinique. "

The world after culinary school is going to be a very, very hard place for this writer.

←

Oh No!! bourdain, look at me. I am trembling.

[bourdain]

I say that with sadness--not menace.

[FaustianBargain]

I say that with sadness--not menace.

←

Thank you, I am touched.

I am sure there is some kitchen in this whole wide world that will take me in for what I am and where I will be happy....

[chefzadi]

I say that with sadness--not menace.

←

Thank you, I am touched.

I am sure there is some kitchen in this whole wide world that will take me in for what I am and where I will be happy....

←

Where are you working now? Where have you cooked? Have you ever worked as a Chef de Cuisine? How much work experience do you have?

Edited April 9, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[ronnie_suburban]

Actually, there is some confusion here on the legislation.

The proposed Chicago ordinance was reported on April 7 in the Trib as I stated in my orginal post http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=891590 . That ordinance seeks to ban all Chicago restaurants from serving foie gras.

Now the state of Illinois had recently passed a bill (that coincided with original Mark Caro article and was mentioned in it) that made it illegal to produce foie gras in Illinois, but did attempt to interfere with anyone's dining preferences.

←

Thanks for bringing that up.

Illinois legislators are currently considering S.B. 413, introduced by Senator Kathleen Wojcik (R, 28). This legislation would prohibit force feeding birds. This cruel method is used to turn duck and goose livers into the "delicacy" known as pâté de foie gras. S.B. 413 unanimously passed the Senate Executive Committee on Wednesday, March 9th. It will soon be considered on the Senate floor. Your help is needed now!

Liver and let live related to Sen.Wojcik's bill. Mark Caro's article came hot behind the heels of Sen.Wojcik's bill.

Trotter, as ronnie_suburban suggested had nothing to do with Alderman or Wojcik's proposed legislation. Caro approached Trotter. Caro carried the messages from Tramonto to Trotter. The tilt of his article was on Trotter's comments rather than

The new one proposing a ban on consumption/possession of foie gras is not yet passed. That one would be Sen. Joe Alderman in Ill.

The proposal to ban possession/consumption of foie gras was already considered prior to the Trotter interview. From here

At the end of the day, it makes no difference. Unless someone is looking for someone else to blame.

Legislation also is being considered in Oregon, New York, Illinois and Massachusetts that would make it a criminal act even to possess the delicacy. Activists recently persuaded about 10 restaurants to stop serving foie gras in

Pittsburgh.

edit: additional data here dated March 14, 2005. SB 861 in Oregon was proposed March 7, 2005, iirc. The issue of banning foie gras production and banning possession blurs. Sen. Wojcik, for example, assured when her bill was passed that restaruants can continue to serve foie gras, but there was no space in Ill to set up foie gras farms.

Her words:

Her legislation was approved without opposition by a Senate committee Wednesday and moves to the Senate floor. No businesses operate in Illinois that force-feed birds. Wojcik wants to keep it that way. The practice was recently banned in California, and many European countries have done the same.

"No one is going to be harmed in Illinois," Wojcik said. "The restaurants can still purchase their foie gras. All we're saying is that if you're planning on coming to Illinois and starting a business to do something like this, then the door is closed."

I hope this helps.

←

Again, the Chicago bill has not yet been voted upon. And it's pretty clear that Trotter's very public comments (voiced in various recent articles and columns) will have some effect on how the council eventually votes -- since its members often seek the safety of "expert" opinions before taking positions on issues. I hope that the members of the city council will dismiss Trotter's comments entirely and vote not to intervene in what we eat.

=R=

[FaustianBargain]

Wow..what a slew of replies

Ok, people. Think what you may..but there is a code in the kitchen. In professional kitchens, you DO NOT tell the chef what to cook. You DO NOT tell him how to cook it. You DO NOT criticise the techinique.

It is simply not done. You can come up with any number of responses to follow this, but this is what happens in REAL kitchens. Trotter or anyone else do not have the right to tell any other chef how to cook. Do you know how Heston travels when he goes outside to cook? Often he lugs around his equipment and whatever it is he creates magic with...the menus are planned..the recipes are decided upon...When it is done, it is DONE.

Good luck. I have tried my best. The next time another state bans foie gras production or possession..or when the next chef gets terrorised, I hope you have some other plan of action other than placing the blame on someone else or whining about the seizure of gastronomic freedoms.

There are people who do. There are people who talk.

Enjoy it while it lasts because without a sense of direction or strategy, the days of foie gras in the United States are numbered.

I have wasted enough time on this.

[FaustianBargain]

Where are you working now? Where have you cooked? Have you ever worked as a Chef de Cuisine? How much work experience do you have?

←

Surely, you are kidding me.

Would you also like to know where I live?

Edited April 9, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[chefzadi]

Where are you working now? Where have you cooked? Have you ever worked as a Chef de Cuisine? How much work experience do you have?

←

Surely, you are kidding me.

Would you also like to know where I live?

←

No I'm not. I'm asking because you speak with quite the authoritative voice about kitchen codes. And what a chef is....

But I don't want to know where you live.

You are anonymously engaging in public attacks on people who do use their real name. Says alot about your credibility. You know what my real name is and where I teach. Tony is a public figure, you know about him. You know what our "credentials" are. What are yours? Where have you worked? What have you done to know so much about the professional world of chefs and kitchens? You don't want to answer, which reveals that you have little or no experience about which you speak with booming authority. But I already know that.

Good luck. I have tried my best.

Your best wasn't good enough to sway a bunch of grown ups who have lived, worked and have recognized credentials. That says more about what your best is, more than it does about the professionals you have been railroading and insulting.

Ya'll, have a nice fucking life.

Use you're real name when you say things like this. Better yet, say it like we are standing face to face. But if you used your real name you wouldn't say things like this. You say whatever you want as long as there is no potential consequence to you in real life. I say what I want knowing that I'm on a public forum and as a somewhat public figure I know that my students and colleagues (some who I know personally) are reading this. This doesn't deter my freedom of speach at all. Because I don't say in public what I wouldn't say in private.

Edited April 9, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[FaustianBargain]

Again, the Chicago bill has not yet been voted upon.  And it's pretty clear that Trotter's very public comments (voiced in various recent articles and columns) will have some effect on how the council eventually votes -- since its members often seek the safety of "expert" opinions before taking positions on issues.  I hope that the members of the city council will dismiss Trotter's comments entirely and vote not to intervene in what we eat.

Ronnie, I feel obliged to answer again because you have raised this issue again.

Whether Trotter's extracted public comments have any effect on how the vote swings is a different issue from whether he is responsible for the vote. Having said that, you may as well be right when you say that his comments would have an effect upon the vote.

I too hope that the members of the city council will not vote in a manner that would offend one's basic right to eat.

[zilla369]

I have wasted enough time on this.

←

I thought i heard angels begin to sing as i read this.

Sadly, the singing ground to a ragged halt when i refreshed the screen only to find this was not your final word.

[iheartoffal]

I think at this point people are really belaboring this issue...

[chefzadi]

I think at this point people are really belaboring this issue...

←

We tried not too, but there's been a constant distraction.

[SKinCA]

SkinCA said: "Do you assume that there is no legitimate give and take between equals in the cooking world? That Chef Trotter couldn't simply have asked the other chefs if it was possible to replace foie, given his (Trotter's) current feelings on the subject?

FB replies: Well, is there any legitimate give and take in the foie gras community? Why dont you guys fly to France or to Canada to enjoy your foie gras?"

So, your answer is.....?

At least this has been a lively thread.

Cheers all.

[Bux]

Where are you working now? Where have you cooked? Have you ever worked as a Chef de Cuisine? How much work experience do you have?

←

Surely, you are kidding me.

Would you also like to know where I live?

←

A year ago you didn't think that so terrible or sensitive a question.

. . . .

That would be dandy!! I am currently a student at the Cordon Bleu(London).  . . . .

←

The answer speaks to the credibility of your claims about about what one can, and cannot do in a professional kitchen especially when speaking to professional chefs, whose international experience doesn't seem to support your assertions. Anthony Bourdain is not a cypher, well perhaps he is, but we know he's a real person with a trail. Chefzadi doesn't hide behind anonymity. We profit from their professional opinions even if they go off half cocked and we profit from knowing who they are and from their professional and experienced point of view. One can contribute with examples. One can cite one's experience. Anonymous assertions are generally not contributions to a discussion and may be seen as a violation of a number of points in the agreement under which we all post here.

[WHT]

Where are you working now? Where have you cooked? Have you ever worked as a Chef de Cuisine? How much work experience do you have?

←

Surely, you are kidding me.

Would you also like to know where I live?

←

I see the question as being valid even if answered in a broad sense like, in an Italian joint in Newark. I see you taking pot shots in other threads too and hiding behind a screen name.

One of the reasons I have refrained from this thread is your constant and needless antagonistic attitude. You held yourself out as being in the profession how about some sort of proof rather than deluded paranoid behavior?

As for Charlie I have already made it well known my feelings towards him as a professional and a person as well as other aspects of his overrated existence.

[jamiemaw]

The lack of information on foie gras de canard production (for much goes on behind closed doors) prodded me to see for myself in the summer of 2003.

Encore un Foie?

I’m certainly no expert on the production of foie gras, and, as much as I love the stuff have become an infrequent eater of it, especially after it became so very ubiquitous, even in inexpert hands (it deserved much better), a decade or more ago. I regret that it lost its purity, became a plaything -- even a cynical hamburger fixing.

Whereas in France foie gras is a natural wintertime celebratory food (much is consumed between Christmas and New Year's), in North America it has become commodified, an item for Robb Report readers to add to their iconic lists like a vertical of Petrus, the lists that speak to excess cash flow seeking social validation. But not to sound a snot, for even if this class is bereft of good taste, let's assume that more than one of them knows what tastes good. Although some might say that these type of people only had kids so they could get pre-boarding, I have no opinion on the subject.

But not to confuse the issue: Most people, especially those with more than a passing interest in food, eat foie gras because it is delicious and because its unctuous texture is like no other.

Foie gras may soon join Chilean sea bass, swordfish, bluefin tuna and Caspian caviar amongst the verbotten for the Prius set, not for reason of endangerment, but rather for perceived cruelty. But what had struck me as I read the little available literature on the subject was the lack of firsthand information. Most people rendering their opinion, on either side of the issue, had not, it appeared, set foot anywhere near a foie gras production facility.

It's safe to say that the foie reared in Quebec is exemplary; indeed many Canadian and American chefs who have worked with the three main products (Sonoma, Hudson Valley and Quebéçois) believe it the best foie product on the continent. I had the opportunity to inspect two foie gras de canard farms in Quebec last summer and was even allowed entré into the inner sanctum--the gavage sheds--which, for reasons of disease control and increasing political sensitivity, are usually off limits.

The first farm, south of Montreal, was a fairly large scale commercial operation that is licensed to export product extra-provincially and into the US (and in fact supplies many eastern seaboard US restaurants). It was an unfettered production line with all stages of the process carried out in a carefully controlled environment. Diet, heat, humidity and light were fastidiously calibrated and constantly monitored by computer. It was also a scrupulously clean operation; the main fear being, because of the close quarters, a systemic outbreak of disease.

As the ducklings matured toward gavage, their pre-migratory instinct to gorge was seemingly tricked into action (no matter the time of year--I was there the day before St. Jean-Baptiste Day in late June) via the steady diminishment of light and heat (imitating shorter autumn days), and diet deprivation followed by a spate of abundant feed; deprivation; feed.

The gavage stage (heavily air-conditioned and humidified) was clinical but expertly managed (the speed of the technique is not learned overnight) from a mechanically-forced machine that follows the operator, although the ducks were held in restrictive individual pens within a shed the size of a small warehouse. The actual gavage took just a few seconds. The shed was cold and wet, and the ducks were certainly not running to be fed -- they couldn't budge. The pens were suspended above frequently flushed concrete floors; the shed smelled much as you might expect.

Although the ducks did not appear to protest the gavage, which, again, was both swift and expert, there is simply no way—short of inviting Dr. Doolittle to the party—to know. (A little like being at the dentist with wadding and a rubber dam in your mouth when he asks you the quality check question). But neither did we see any evidence of animals squealing or otherwise behaving in an obviously distressed manner.

Although I asked on more than one occasion, the precise (mainly corn) composition of diet for the ducks is closely guarded; it would be unfair to speculate what, if any, medications might or might not be added to their feed. But it was obvious even to an outsider that bacterial or viral disease could be commercially lethal to this type of closed facility.

What struck me most about this operation though, was the very large size of the finished liver. At over 600 grams, the liver distends below the animal’s ribcage and has an exterior appearance, prior to their trip to the abbatoir, not unlike a human hernia poking through skin. This is the portion of the liver most likely to be damaged or bruised, et voila--pate.

All of the parts of the duck carcass were packaged and sold, in large part to restaurants: the foie, trimmed breasts, legs en confit, pate, and the carcass for stock.

The second farm, located near Quebec City, was a somewhat different story. This smaller producer, which used smaller, old (and picturesque) wooden sheds and barns, also revealed a slightly different methodology. The ducklings (hatched off-site) were allowed free range in outdoor pens before being moved indoors to the manipulated environment. But even that seemed a little friendlier: at this stage the ducklings were still allowed to roam in quite large rooms.

The gavage was similar to the prior operation, but with an important difference: the feed was stopped when the livers were estimated to be at the 400 to 450 gram stage of growth for slaughter, and before any obvious distension had taken place. For regulatory reasons (and much like many of the province’s wonderful cheeses), their product is not available outside of Quebec, the only Canadian province where it is legal to produce foie gras de canard.

The chef with whom I was traveling, Jean-Luc Boulay, who operates a restaurant in Quebec City called Le Saint’Amour, visited this operation regularly, as much, I came to feel, for his interest in the welfare of the animals as for the quality of the finished (smaller) product that they gave up. He seemed convinced that the smaller livers were superior—less likely to be granular—and that the ducks knew no suffering. Boulay regularly serves several variations—typical might be a homemade terrine with Sauternes jelly and fig pulp; squab stuffed with fresh foie gras; or foie gras seared with fleur de sel, its pan deglazed with cranberries and mango chutney. One can also order a foie gras plat combining several of these.

Without for a minute wishing to prejudice anyone, having seen these two producers, I wouldn't eat from a foie over half a kilo. And because in a restaurant setting that’s nigh on impossible to verify, I choose to eat it no more. But that’s an entirely personal choice, albeit one I regretfully add to a growing list of other much-missed foods, especially that other luxe one, Caspian caviar.

In fact, the last foie gras I ate was in Quebec City, early last summer, from the hand of the master Boulay. It was generous and seared quickly in a hot iron pan, with a top knot of good salt and a fresh, barely warmed compote of rhubarb that put sweaters on my teeth. Those perfect combinant flavours, plush under their crust and tinctured with the rhubarb, melted away slowly, and then forever.

Edited April 9, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[FaustianBargain]

The lack of information on foie gras de canard production (for much goes on behind closed doors) prodded me to see for myself in the summer of 2003.

Encore un Foie?[..]

Thank you for posting this, Jamie Maw. I do remember reading this at that time when I was trying to decide which side of fence I'd like to be...It is informative and offers the view from the other side of the border. Your Canadian version and derricks' Californian experience are two objective pieces of reporting that I have read about foie gras farms. Thanks again.