A Conversation with Mel Knox

[Andre]

Facinating Mel, thanks.

Are there any recommendations of specific oak or oak condition to specific grape veriety or style ?

When it comes to assemblage - are ther any recommended marriages?

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Thanks again Mel and while your on your working break:

Elaborating the Assemblage question - When blending dif. barrels in terms of :

a. dif. degree of toastiness.

b. dif ages of barrels.

c. dif. kinds of barrels e.g. Hungaruan blended with Russian oak

d. dif. producers.

e. dif. sizes.

Are there any do's and don'ts ? and what might be your recommendatios?

[Mel Knox]

Thanks again Mel and while your on your working break:

Elaborating the Assemblage question - When blending dif. barrels in terms of :

a. dif. degree of toastiness.

b. dif ages of barrels.

c. dif. kinds of barrels e.g. Hungaruan blended with Russian oak

d. dif. producers.

e. dif. sizes.

1/i am not a fan of toasty extremes...med plus is fine for me...heavy if the wood is 3 yrs air dried, but nothing light. But the quality of toast depends on the seasoning of the wood.

2/it's like asking how long should a piece of string be....i think for great vineyards

50 to 100 per cent new can be great...also depends on style and cepage...20% new for many zinfandels and barbera can be just right

3/Hungarian, when properly seasoned, can be quite similar to French. I have yet to see this with Russian. My theory is that you take a people who have been told that lying and cheating are important processes of the capitalistic system so when someboyd comes to build a stave mill they feel bad if they forget to lie, cheat and steal.

4/I guess it depends on the producers. Frankly, if you blend Francois or Taransaud with some crappy bourbon barrel you have wasted your money. I am re minded of a dinner I attended where each guest brought the course and the wine. I made a terrine with three kinds of meats and three kinds of eaux die vie in the gelatin. It was confusing.

Sometimes it s best to go with one meat and one flavor in the sauce. Sometimes blending works great. I knew a guy who made a sauv blanc from grapes grown all over Napa, in all kinds of barrels and tanks, and it worked out great. But his chardonnay never went anywhere.

5/Sizes: the larger the barrel the slower the development of the wine...sometimes this is good and cometimes bad.

Sometimes what you think of reduction is really barrel taste.I know a grower in Volnay who switched from 228 L bbls to 350L...We tasted his Meursault and Volnay while he was cogitating over the whole thing. The wine in the 228 L was quite traditionally Burgundian with a lot of reductive qualities. In the 350 L the fruit stood out and the reductive qualities (roasted coffee in the red) went away. It was just a question of barrel size.

I am a big fan of larger barrels but the logistics and back strain issues are quite important. If one has the barrel racks etc for larger barrels, a la Dehlinger, they can work very well.

[Andre]

I am being rude here, sorry about that....

Any opinion about the use of Portuguese oak in New World winemaking techniques ?

[Mel Knox]

I am being rude here, sorry about that....

Any opinion about the use of Portuguese oak in New World winemaking techniques ?

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Not as rude as you think, since many coopers in France are from Portugal. Millions of folks have moved to France from Portugal, Angola and Mozambique.

About twelve yrs ago i attended a talk by an Englishman making wine in Portugal. Occasionally he had barrels made of Portuguese oak but there is not that much oak available. You can t run a cooperage biziness based on part time availability of logs.

France is 40% forest as I recall and a third of it is oak.

Anyway, His cellars were a bit warm so it was hard to judge the wood.

[Rebel Rose]

Mel, can you tell us more about your relationship with Becky Wasserman? How it started, who she is, how it has colored your interest in coopering?

[Carolyn Tillie]

Mel, I know that the 'biggies' use oak from both French and American forests and there is a great debate between French Oak and American Oak. but I am curious about the beginning use of oak from other countries like Hungary or even China.

Do you believe we have a finite supply and will have to start looking for oak in alternate locations and are there any oak forests which hint at having the same qualities as those we have pulled from in the past?

[Rebel Rose]

And can you tell us how and why you got started making wine with Jim Moore? Did you just show up one day to present barrels, and a few barrel-samplings and beers later decide to get into the wine business together?

That's how it seems to happen around here . . .

[Mel Knox]

Mel, can you tell us more about your relationship with Becky Wasserman?  How it started, who she is, how it has colored your interest in coopering?

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I met Becky around 1976 through a lawyer named Phil Diamond. With Jim Olsen,with whom I then worked, they started Diamond Wine Merchants then. Becky would stay with my first wife and myself. Around 1980 she was staying with us on a barrel sales trip and fell very ill with the flu and so I said, Don t worry I will sell those barrels for you. I sold three containers in three weeks so we became partners.

When she started to work with Kermit Lynch her partnership with Phil Diamond dissolved. Phil was the lawyer for Francois Freres USA until he retired. He is still active in running Diamond Wines. He served in WWII so you know he wasn t born yesterday. Still fit as a fiddle as they say.

Anyway I bought her out around 1990. Becky is in love with selling Burgundy wines and I don t blame her. It's a terrible addiction tho.

There is a book called Burgundy by Eunice Fried. Some folks call it Beckondy.It was out of date by the time it came out, as far as Becky is concerned. But it gives a great portrait of a time and place. Barry Bassin, depicted in the book as a genius, went bankrupt and stuck Becky and her Bordeaux partners with big debts.

Becky is a fascinating and complex person. One story I love that she told me about herself: When she was a teenager in Manhattan she would save her allowance and use the money to buy caviar and balkan sobranie cigarettes, which she would enjoy alone in her room.

She and her second husband Bart moved to Burgundy in May of 1968. They wanted to escape the tumult in the uSA...ha ha ha Of course they landed in the middle of the Second French revolution.

They bought a property to renovate. In the meantime they rented a house in St Romain and got to know their neighbors, Jean and Noelle Francois. Jean had the idea of selling barrels in America and sent Becky to California.

I am saving the juicy bits for my autobiography or for when i remember them, whichever comes first.

For Becky the everyday is impossible and the impossible is easy.

[Mel Knox]

Mel, I know that the 'biggies' use oak from both French and American forests and there is a great debate between French Oak and American Oak. but I am curious about the beginning use of oak from other countries like Hungary or even China.

Do you believe we have a finite supply and will have to start looking for oak in alternate locations and are there any oak forests which hint at having the same qualities as those we have pulled from in the past?

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As far as French oak is concerned there is a centuries long history of forestry management. Today for every board foot of oak cut down, three grow.

This is a pretty good record.

If there is a problem, it is getting really tight grained stave wood.

Hungary also has a good record of forestry management. A forester in Hungary told me that they gorw 2.5 M# for every M3 (cubic meter) harvested.

In this country softwood takes precedence as it grows faster. One person in the American oak business told me that when he started the minimum diameter for a log was 25 inches. Now it is 15 inches. There is a 1/1 ratio of wood growth to wood harvested. So common sense says prices will go up.

One thing to remember: most of the forests in france are controlled by the state. The owners of private land follow the results of the auctions. In the USA hardwood forests are controlled by thousands of small landowners etc with relatively little (and certain different) government input.

I would be a little worried about forestry management in China but I am not an authority on it. Maybe it would be better to talk to people in Bangladesh who get flooded because China is removing all the trees from the mountains above them.

[Mel Knox]

And can you tell us how and why you got started making wine with Jim Moore?  Did you just show up one day to present barrels, and a few barrel-samplings and beers later decide to get into the wine business together?

That's how it seems to happen around here . . .

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I first met Jim in the late 70s when he applied for job at the store where I worked. Since there was no job he did nt get it.

Anyway, we got to know each other through Mondavi.

In 97 we made Barbera. I had Jim incorporate some Oregon oak barrels into a barbera project. That sold very well so we made Nebbiolo. I thought the wine was so good we would become famous. Frankly we have made six vintages of fine nebbiolo (four barrels in 97, and around 20/yr for 98,99, 00, 01 and 02) and nobody seems to know or care.

We are concentrating on inexpensive Barbera from Lodi, calloed il Gufo, with occasional efforts into arneis and rosato di barbera. We also have a nebbiolo/barbera blend called il Lupo. Cole s Chop House and the french Laundry just listed it so can't be too bad.

Indeed sommeliers really like the fact that our wines go well with food and aren t too expensive.

[Rebel Rose]

Can we order your wines online? Links?

[Mel Knox]

Can we order your wines online?  Links?

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icilabas: two guys just learning about 50 s technology...jim just got a cellphone!

Jim Moore and his daughter put up a website: tell him i said to give you good deal!

My Webpage: www.uvaggio.com

as you can see i hardly know how to post let alone put up a website.

My wife has a great website on her art:

www.lizland.com

i hope this works!

[Andre]

Enjoying....

1/ Any idea about the percentage of TCA in oak barrels ?

2/ Are there other kinds of bacteria oak is sesnsitive too?

3/ How easily can the oak breathe other aromas.

4/ There are winemaker who would rather not clean a barrel before second use. Any ideas about that ?

[Mel Knox]

Enjoying....

1/ Any idea about the percentage of TCA in oak barrels ?

2/ Are there other kinds of bacteria oak is sesnsitive too?

3/ How easily can the oak breathe other aromas.

4/ There are winemaker who would rather not clean a barrel before second use. Any ideas about that ?

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TCA is a big subject these days. The cork people have been getting slammed so they have blamed it on us. And in some cases they may have a point, that low levels of TCA in the winery mean that any imperfection in the cork gives rise to big problems.

I have been selling barrels since 1980 and have only seen four or five examples of wineries with real TCA problems. Barrrels can give TCA and TeCA problems under certain conditions:

a)some cooperages spinkle the stacks of stave wood in the summer. If the water has too much chlorine in it...

b)some mills treat wood used in construction with sprays that keep down mold. if this gets onto stave wood...

c)problems in shipping...

d)molds in the kiln dryer

a, b and d are not potential problems for the cooperages I sell, but anybody can have a problem with c).

We have seen two problems in 25 years...not the end of the world. One was definitely tied to shipping and the other equally so, I think.

I last studied chemistry in the early 60s and was not the brightest in the class, but there are related problems. TBA, tri bromo chloride, can be just as bad as TCA. Woods treated with bromines can be used in shipping...

Of course, the other big worry vis a vis cooperage : brettanomyces and its cousin dekkera. One time I was watching aGiants game with the staff of Saintsbury. Brett Butler got a hit and then winemaker Byron Kosuge cheered, Yeah Bret, Way to go.

I commented that I had never heard a winemaker root for Brett before. Co-owner david Graves, responded, That's because Kevin Mitchell is on dekkera, mel.

Well, my jokes are better than my science. I am probably the wrong person to discuss these issues when there are so many well trained winemakers who could do it well!

How does the environment of the winery impact what is inside the barrel??

In the 90s various chateaux inBordeaux rebuilt their cellars with wood that had been treated with various anti mold products. The incessant off gassing of the wood finally got into the barrels and there were big problems. But I think that if there is a little mold here or there the insides of the barrel are safe.

I visited Ramonet Prudhon in 1977. The walls were covered with mold. The floor looked like artifial Christmas tree snow. The heads of the barrels were moldy.

The wine was friggin dynamite.

Again, I am probably the wrong person to answer this question. If you asked anybody at a wine lab they would give you a CYA kind of answer: no guarantees, mate, unless you eliminate every source of possible contamination.

Not 'cleaning' barrels: I have seen chateaux in Bordeaux that rinse their tanks with wine, burn some so2 and that's it. They feel that VA problems are less worrisome than mold contamination.

Andre, I interviewed some winemakers on this subject long ago for Practical Winery and if you send me yr e mail address I will forward a copy.

[Echezeaux]

1) I've heard some barrels are so sought-after that they are actually "allocated" to various wineries.

A winemaker mentioned that there are even, essentially, "scalpers" who buy these allocated barrels only to sell them to others, buying less costly cooperage...

2) What wine publications do you find interesting and informative?

3) What wines do you especially enjoy drinking and what wines are you most willing to actually pay for?

[Mel Knox]

1)  I've heard some barrels are so sought-after that they are actually "allocated" to various wineries.

A winemaker mentioned that there are even, essentially, "scalpers" who buy these allocated barrels only to sell them to others, buying less costly cooperage...

2)  What wine publications do you find interesting and informative?

3)  What wines do you especially enjoy drinking and what wines are you most willing to actually pay for?

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I haven t heard of anybody scalping barrels, but over the years we have had to allocate barrels. It's always tricky because I don t want to turn down business but I want to take care of people who have taken care of me.

Well, I have to read Parker, Tanzer, and the Spectator if only to see how my customers are doing in the ratings game. I also get Decanter, Wine, Wine and Spirits (both UK and US versions) along with Gourmet and Wine and Food. Practical Winery and Wines and Vines are also important. Needless to say I don t read all of them cover to cover.

Bartering appeals to my Scottish nature. Since Jean Francois and I buy a barrel or two at the Hospices de Beaune every year I usually have plenty of things to trade. We have bought a barrel of Meursault every year for 10 yrs--usually Genevrieres, Boudot. So I do lots of trading with my barrel customers.

I buy Burgundy on a random basis, esp Potel, lafarge, Burguet, and Engel.

[Rebel Rose]

Mel, thank you so much for giving us this unique opportunity to inquire into the wonderful world of oak! And thank you to everyone who participated in what has been a very enlightening discussion.

I will leave this thread open through the weekend in case anyone would like to throw in one last question or comment, and then we will close it and pin it in our Conversation index.

However, that won't preclude us from introducing future topics on the subject of oak. Mel, I hope you will return to visit us frequently and share your insights on life, wine and quercus supremus.