bourgogne's

[jgould]

i have always read to buy a "decent" bourgogne rouge, one must spend at least $50. however, i can't resist what "appears" to be a bargain:

the 2001 Bourgogne Curvée St.-Vincent from Vincent Girardin - whose family has been producing wines in Santenay, the second-to-last village (Maranges) at the southernmost end of the Côte de Beaune, for 11 generations!! i know this is only a simple Bourgogne Controlee, but for $14.99 (marked down from $17.99), i had to try. one only learns from experience. i thought it had a fairly metallic (?) aftertaste, with very little bouquet. has anyone else tried? &, any thoughts as to a widely sold bourgogne rouge from the Côte de NUITS that doesn't break the pocketbook??

2nd bottle, actually the 1st, was a 2000 Clos de la Fortune Bourgogne Aligoté Bouzeron from Domaine Chanzy in Saône-et-Loire with Crème de Cassis de Dijon for making kirs. definitely needed the cassis, but could not get the right proportion. either too much cassis or too little. any thoughts? also, should the cassis be poured 1st, or added after??

[wkl]

I'm currently enjoying Domaine Daniel Rion Bourgogne Rouge 2002 for around $16.

Plenty of '02 Bourgogne around, that may be why the Giardin was marked down.

[Carema]

I think the trick to good Bourgogne Rouges is vintage. often times these are declassified wines from whatever appellation the producer is in; 2001 being a better white year the bourgogne rouges will be weak. I suggest looking for 2002 Bourgogne Rouge as it was a much stronger vintage; or 1999s which were underrated but really starting to purr now. I would avoid 2000 & 2001 for this category.

As for the Kir thing, the traditional way (as in sitting in a bar in Beaune traditional) is a very small glass, lots of kir first and then some Aligote. The proportions seemed to be about half and half there so spending money on the kir is more important than the quality of the Aligote. Lucien Jabobs makes an incredible cassis as well as framboise. The white wine seemed more like a watery cutting device for the very frangrant cassis.

[Carema]

Yes. One more thing about BRs:

Bourgogne Rouge from more muscular appellation seem to make more sense if you want a little more oomph. Think Pommard, NSG (like the Rion) etc. usually the orogin will be printed in small letters at the bottom of the label. Santenay is famously soft and silky to begin with, so it may not pack quite the punch as a BR from more beefy terroirs. BTW we sell the J. Girardin Santenay 1er cru Beauregard here for only $21, 2002 vintage.

[wkl]

Another idea; try some non-bourgogne pinot from Irancy, Sancerre, or Loire Valley.Good producers here offer good price to quality.You need a trustworhty and knowledgable retailer to explore these wines though (IMO).

[jgould]

I think the trick to good Bourgogne Rouges is vintage. often times these are declassified wines from whatever appellation the producer is in; 2001 being a better white year the bourgogne rouges will be weak. I suggest looking for 2002 Bourgogne Rouge as it was a much stronger vintage; or 1999s which were underrated but really starting to purr now. I would avoid 2000 & 2001 for this category.

As for the Kir thing, the traditional way (as in sitting in a bar in Beaune traditional) is a very small glass, lots of kir first and then some Aligote. The proportions seemed to be about half and half there so spending money on the kir is more important than the quality of the Aligote. Lucien Jabobs makes an incredible cassis as well as framboise. The white wine seemed more like a watery cutting device for the very frangrant cassis.

←

thanks very much. minor correction, i know u meant to say "cassis" instead of "kir"

[winemike]

I think the trick to good Bourgogne Rouges is vintage.

I think the trick to good Bourgogne (red or white) is *who* makes it.

Sure the vintage has its importance, but the winemaker is what makes the difference in Burgundy. Or did you imply this anyway ?

2001 being a better white year the bourgogne rouges will be weak.

I'm sorry, I do not understand this. White is great *therefore* red will be weak ?!

What makes you believe this ?

Mike.

[bobferdon]

i have always read to buy a "decent" bourgogne rouge, one must spend at least $50. however, i can't resist what "appears" to be a bargain:

the 2001 Bourgogne Curvée St.-Vincent from Vincent Girardin - whose family has been producing wines in Santenay, the second-to-last village (Maranges) at the southernmost end of the Côte de Beaune, for 11 generations!! i know this is only a simple Bourgogne Controlee, but for $14.99 (marked down from $17.99), i had to try. one only learns from experience. i thought it had a fairly metallic (?) aftertaste, with very little bouquet. has anyone else tried? &, any thoughts as to a widely sold bourgogne rouge from the Côte de NUITS that doesn't break the pocketbook??

2nd bottle, actually the 1st, was a 2000 Clos de la Fortune Bourgogne Aligoté Bouzeron from Domaine Chanzy in Saône-et-Loire with Crème de Cassis de Dijon for making kirs. definitely needed the cassis, but could not get the right proportion. either too much cassis or too little. any thoughts? also, should the cassis be poured 1st, or added after??

←

Try something new from Joseph Drouhin.

Vero Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. First release is the 2002 vintage. Press ahs been good.

Made from blending finished wines from very good villages and sold under the Bourgogne label.

These are not declassified wines. The Meursault that is blended in the Chardonnay is the same wines sold as Meursault.

The wine is made by Veronique Drouhin at Maison Joseph Drouhin and is their effort to get the consumers who drink $20 to $25 CA wine to try burgundy.

Since is a blend from village level wines it is less affected by vintage varitation then the basic Bourgogne wines.

They simply can select stronger villages in an off vintage to make sure the wine is a quality product each year.

[jgould]

i have always read to buy a "decent" bourgogne rouge, one must spend at least $50. however, i can't resist what "appears" to be a bargain:

the 2001 Bourgogne Curvée St.-Vincent from Vincent Girardin - whose family has been producing wines in Santenay, the second-to-last village (Maranges) at the southernmost end of the Côte de Beaune, for 11 generations!! i know this is only a simple Bourgogne Controlee, but for $14.99 (marked down from $17.99), i had to try. one only learns from experience. i thought it had a fairly metallic (?) aftertaste, with very little bouquet. has anyone else tried? &, any thoughts as to a widely sold bourgogne rouge from the Côte de NUITS that doesn't break the pocketbook??

2nd bottle, actually the 1st, was a 2000 Clos de la Fortune Bourgogne Aligoté Bouzeron from Domaine Chanzy in Saône-et-Loire with Crème de Cassis de Dijon for making kirs. definitely needed the cassis, but could not get the right proportion. either too much cassis or too little. any thoughts? also, should the cassis be poured 1st, or added after??

←

Try something new from Joseph Drouhin.

Vero Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. First release is the 2002 vintage. Press ahs been good.

Made from blending finished wines from very good villages and sold under the Bourgogne label.

These are not declassified wines. The Meursault that is blended in the Chardonnay is the same wines sold as Meursault.

The wine is made by Veronique Drouhin at Maison Joseph Drouhin and is their effort to get the consumers who drink $20 to $25 CA wine to try burgundy.

Since is a blend from village level wines it is less affected by vintage varitation then the basic Bourgogne wines.

They simply can select stronger villages in an off vintage to make sure the wine is a quality product each year.

←

thx very much - wii try to find.

question: is A.C. shorthand for a "village" wine, or a shortened abbreviation of A.O.C.?

[bobferdon]

Sorry, by Village wines I am talking AOC.

Vero Pinot Noir is a blend of Volnay, Chorey-les-Beaune, Rully and Chambolle-Musigny. $25?

Vero Chardonnay is a blend of Chablis, Rully, Meursault, and Puligny Montrachet. $20?The Chardonnay stands out...

[jgould]

Sorry, by Village wines I am talking AOC.

Vero Pinot Noir is a blend of Volnay, Chorey-les-Beaune, Rully and Chambolle-Musigny. $25?

Vero Chardonnay is a blend of Chablis, Rully, Meursault, and Puligny Montrachet. $20?The Chardonnay stands out...

←

with all due respect, those blends sound terrible! whats the point? one buys a bourgogne blanc specifically for the particular terroir; therefore, a chablis is different than a rully, a meursault, or a puligny & vice-versa

same goes for a bourgogne rouge. certainly a côte de nuit chambolle-musigny is different than a côte de beaune volnay, n'est-ce pas? & i don't believe one would include a rully from the côte chalonnaise in the above group; & besides, everyone knows, rully is better known for its blancs than its rouges

as to AOC, i believe it refers to appellation; whereas, AC "refers" to village wine(??)

[jrufusj]

Sorry, by Village wines I am talking AOC.

Vero Pinot Noir is a blend of Volnay, Chorey-les-Beaune, Rully and Chambolle-Musigny. $25?

Vero Chardonnay is a blend of Chablis, Rully, Meursault, and Puligny Montrachet. $20?The Chardonnay stands out...

←

with all due respect, those blends sound terrible! whats the point? one buys a bourgogne blanc specifically for the particular terroir; therefore, a chablis is different than a rully, a meursault, or a puligny & vice-versa

same goes for a bourgogne rouge. certainly a côte de nuit chambolle-musigny is different than a côte de beaune volnay, n'est-ce pas? & i don't believe one would include a rully from the côte chalonnaise in the above group; & besides, everyone knows, rully is better known for its blancs than its rouges

as to AOC, i believe it refers to appellation; whereas, AC "refers" to village wine(??)

←

With all due respect...the vast majority of bourgogne rouge and bourgogne blanc are blended from wines made by others and bought in from end to end of the bourgogne appellation area. These wines often include fruit spread practically from Dijon to Macon.

Now, that doesn't mean that I don't generally agree with you that I would prefer even simple bourgogne to have a more focused sense of place. Look for something like Lafarge's Bourgogne Rouge, which comes from plots that used to be classified as Volnay. Many domaine bourgogne will have that sense of place, particularly from a smaller grower who has fewer sources of fruit. They may cost a little more, but generally will better meet a desire for a sense of place. There are even some lieu-dit borgougne, which is a guarantee of fruit from a certain place. Depends on who's making it whether the sense of that place comes through in the wine, but at least one knows where the fruit was grown.

Most (but not all) negociant bourgogne rouge and blanc wines, however, will come from all over. If they are at a price point sufficiently below domaine wines, they can be good value and a far sight more intriguing than $20 pinot noir or chardonnay from California, which have been identified as Drouhin's target in this endeavour.

While, like you, I don't have a great deal of interest in paying $25 for a regional blend, I will likely give these a try. There are probably plenty of other things at that price point that I would rather drink, but Drouhin deserves a shot. They're not trying to make a terroir-based wine; they're trying to make something with the reliability and brand sense of a Cakebread or Kendall-Jackson or a major Champagne house's NV.

I know, Cakebread and KJ are very different wines, of different quality and style, at very different price points. However, they have both achieved the same commercial success -- a clearly defined brand that delivers virtually the same product every year, despite vintage variability. I also know that, if I were going for that sort of thing, I'd probably be much better off with the Drouhin product.

Among the major houses with both negociant and domaine businesses, I have found Drouhin to be perhaps the most consistent and my favorite. If I have to recommend reliable, reasonably priced, widely available merchants that hit enough real highs to be exciting, Drouhin is one of the houses I'll name.

Jadot owns some fabulous land and makes some great wines, but I find their lower level wines and their negociant line to be clean and reliable at best. Latour hits a few highs with some domaine whites and provides some serviceable and reliable negociant whites, but I've never had a red with any stuffing from them. I really want to like Faively. They make wines in a traditional style similar to one of my favorite small negociants, Bouree. However, with the exception of a few high end wines, I've generally found that something of the silk or finesse or seduction is missing in the Faively wines. Sure, they're traditional and structured and all that, but something is missing that just leaves them a little rough and bare.

Oh yeah...there is no difference between AC and AOC. AOC is the proper form, but people often use AC. In France, basically something is either AOC or VDQS or VDP or vin de table. I may have missed some lower step that recent EC legislation may have introduced.

Regional bourgogne rouge and blanc, village wines, premier cru wines, grand cru wines, and any of these with or without any further elaboration of the vineyard are all AOC. Do note though, that the vineyard must be named on a grand cru wine. One cannot blend, say, Le Musigny with Bonnes Mares and sell the wine as grand cru. Within an individual village, one can blend any number premier cru vineyards together and maintain premier cru status. One cannot, however, blend a wine from Gevrey Chambertin with Morey St. Denis and maintain premier cru status or even village status. The best one can then obtain is bourgogne rouge as an appellation.

Sorry...this is probably more confusing than elucidating.

Jim

[MaxH]

i have always read to buy a "decent" bourgogne rouge, one must spend at least $50.

←

What??? What are you reading?

I have eagerly sought Bourgognes Rouges for 25+ years and don't think I ever spent that much, even for more than decent. (Here I refer to the specific appelation "Bourgogne Rouge" or others related to it in practice -- "Hautes Côtes de Beaune," minor village wines, etc.) A year or two ago I put a list on the WCWN site, of 15 years of wines of these appelations, all bought in the US for under $20 and some for $10, and some of them outstanding wines even apart from value.

This doesn't address the question of how you find such wines which is a different matter. Addressed successfully in my experience by a process, rather than a formula. That is, keeping an eye (and nose) on the market, tasting promising prospects, and when the components for a good wine seem to be right, buying them and storing them properly for the usual couple or few years to hit their evident potential. And they do! Some of them exceed hopes! This is why some of the best values I've found in moderately-priced reds over the years have been B-R's.

-- Max

--

Santé, gaieté, espérance! (French wine poster)

[KatieLoeb]

As for the Kir thing, the traditional way (as in sitting in a bar in Beaune traditional) is a very small glass, lots of kir first and then some Aligote. The proportions seemed to be about half and half there so spending money on the kir is more important than the quality of the Aligote. Lucien Jabobs makes an incredible cassis as well as framboise. The white wine seemed more like a watery cutting device for the very frangrant cassis.

←

Aligote is rough-hewn stuff on its own, sort of thin, acidic and weedy, so mixing it with the local cassis made it more potable. The Bourgogne locals are nothing if not frugal and creative.

[jgould]

i have always read to buy a "decent" bourgogne rouge, one must spend at least $50.

←

What??? What are you reading?

I have eagerly sought Bourgognes Rouges for 25+ years and don't think I ever spent that much, even for more than decent. (Here I refer to the specific appelation "Bourgogne Rouge" or others related to it in practice -- "Hautes Côtes de Beaune," minor village wines, etc.) A year or two ago I put a list on the WCWN site, of 15 years of wines of these appelations, all bought in the US for under $20 and some for $10, and some of them outstanding wines even apart from value.

This doesn't address the question of how you find such wines which is a different matter. Addressed successfully in my experience by a process, rather than a formula. That is, keeping an eye (and nose) on the market, tasting promising prospects, and when the components for a good wine seem to be right, buying them and storing them properly for the usual couple or few years to hit their evident potential. And they do! Some of them exceed hopes! This is why some of the best values I've found in moderately-priced reds over the years have been B-R's.

-- Max

--

Santé, gaieté, espérance! (French wine poster)

←

i was referring to grand & premier crus

[MaxH]

i was referring to grand & premier crus

←

Thanks for clarifying. That raises the standard, but at the same time opens up the field.

Coincidentally last night at dinner, before that was posted, I opened a bottle of 1997 Domaine Joblot Givry “Clos du Cellier aux Moines” (Premier Cru designation), still with its price tag, $27.99 (when it was current in the market, and abundantly available); semi-closed now, needs a little time, though it opened and blossomed in the glass after an hour or two. (Not a “trophy” wine to impress one-uppers with its brand name, but if they tasted it blind I think they’d find it “decent.”) Here already we see one element that many followers of Burgundy will likely mention: Givry is in the Challonaise, and it is in such less-widely-known, less-brand-named parts of Burgundy, though not just there, that values will be likely. (The next factoid on the minds of many Burgundy fans is that PC and GC status are useful to know about but are not exact quality guides, and some lieus dits without such status may produce comparable, and maybe better-valued, wines.)

Other, more recent examples I know include 2001 Corton Grand Cru “Les Renardes,” Dom. Prince de Mérode, $46; 2001 Morey St. Denis Premier Cru “La Riotte,” Olivier Jouan, $30.

Just as with the search for exceptional wines under simple labels like Bourgogne Rouge, I repeat my point that finding them is less a matter of specific producer, or magic other formula, than a process of learning the territory and, especially, watching out for the values as they surface.

For what it’s worth -- Max

Edited January 15, 2005 by MaxH (log)

[bobferdon]

Jim,

Excellent post.... and correct.

Thank you for the comments on Drouhin. For those of you who don't know me I work for them here in the USA. I prefer to say USA and AOC instead of US and AC but both are correct.

Over the years I have represented about 20 different burgundy houses and for all of them the Bourgogne level wines have been grapes or wine purchased from various growers and regions from just about anywhere in Burgundy.

The only time grapes were used from Village level wines was if the vines were too young and were declassified or if the vintage was too weak and they would declassify the weakest barrels and put them into Bourgogne wines.

As for the Drouhin's, their long term reputation is far more important them to risk it on one vintage.

Grapes or wine from the village level that are not up to their standards will either be sold off in bulk or if the still represent burgundy they will be used for LaFORET.

I mentioned Vero because it is made from finished village level wines that HAVE MADE THE CUT...

Veronique has 87 different appelations to choose from to make the blend.

My fine wine shops understand it. One of the first customers I tasted said "I taste Chambolle" before I told him the blend. Chambolle 2002 $40 Vero $25....

You are correct the the long term goal is to achieve a consistant style so that 5 years from now when someone is looking on a wine list the vintage is not important. Vero is what's important.