Shiraz

[Jinmyo]

I don't know much about wine. Relatives in Normandy buy unlabelled bottles from local vintners and store them in their cellar. Hundreds and hundreds of bottles there, wine at lunch, wine at supper. So I grew used to wine when I was 7 or so.

40 and more years later I find I primarily drink sake.

A while ago someone introduced me to Australian Shiraz (Banrock Station or something, probably undistinguished). I found I really liked its assertive cassis and tobacco flavours. A little later I heard or read some wine guy say that Shiraz or Syrah (I think he was talking about California Syrah) went well with Asian foods and that if you liked sake, you'd like Shiraz (Syrah).

I found this very interesting as I find nothing in common in the flavours and textures of sake and Shiraz. Yet I like both. (I also like burgundies and some bordeaux. In fact, I've enjoyed a vin de table more often than not if the cheese was nice.)

Does anyone have anything interesting to say about Shiraz (or Syrah) or even about why it might be that an assertive wine like Shiraz and subtle sake might appeal alike? (That wine guy must have known something...)

[macrosan]

I've never been a devotee of the concept that certain wines go with certain foods, except that I agree that a strong-tasting wine with delicate food, and vice versa, tends to spoil the culinary experience. But I'm entirely happy in principle to drink white wine with meat or red wine with fish, and I'm also happy to drink grape wines with any national cuisine.

I'm a lover of Australian Shiraz, and the best I've ever had is in my favorite Chinese (Pekingese) restaurant in Esher, England. I'm not convinced that there is ANY relationship between sake and Shiraz, but I'm happy to continue to drink lots of both in my quest for the truth :)

[A Balic]

I am a little confused by this concept of Shiraz/sake matching, but for what its worth Shiraz/Syrah is a wine that has a very great range in flavour, depending on the climate, country of origin etc etc. So I would be a little wary of listening to anybody that makes broad statements about matching food and wine (eh, the wine guy, not macrosan - who I agree with).

For example, cool climate Australian shiraz is very peppery, while at the other extreme shiraz from a warmer climate can taste like fruit syrup, so the types of food they go well with is going to be quite different. For that matter, "Asian" food is pretty broad as well. Did this chap say anything specific about what type of shiraz or Asian food he was talking about?

[Jinmyo]

I find it odd too. My vague recollection carries an implicarion of Southeast Asian foods.

I've never been able to figure out food and wine pairings beyond the obvious (white goes better for people who prefer white, beer is great with chiles, more sake is a good thing).

I would of course trust a sommelier who has discussed the specifics with the chef. Or macrosan of course.

[Bux]

The whole wine paring thing is interesting and it's like any other pairing. Some things go well together and some less so. Much of this is subjective and some of it is cultural. You'd put salt on your fires, but probably not sugar. On the other hand you might put ketchup, which has both salt and sugar, on your fries. It's not necessarily a white/red thing. Maybe my favorite wine with some sort of food might be a particular red wine, with another red as sceond, but in third place, or maybe first when the mood strikes it's a particular white. Red and white are too broad a categrory separation and all reds are not similar, nor are whites.

Shriaz/syrah to sake? Doesn't even begin to compute in my mind. Far worse than red and white wines. As A. Balic notes, all varietals produce different wines in different climates and with different winemakers. Some grapes have stronger characteristics than others, but they can all be overcome or hidden with the right (wrong?) sort of winemaking anyway.

I'm curious about the local winemakers in Normandy as I've never seen a vineyard in Normandy. I suspect it's wine from some other area in France. Lots of Frenchmend drive to a wine area to buy from a winery direct. Often the winery has no outside sales. I have friends in the Languedoc who buy a lot of wine in large plastic tubs from local winemakers and rebottle it in screw top Perrier bottles for the season. Sometimes they're given local wines by their neighbors who have vineyards. When they help in the harvest they get even more.

[Jinmyo]

Quote: from Bux on 9:10 pm on Jan. 11, 2002

Shriaz/syrah to sake? Doesn't even begin to compute in my mind. Far worse than red and white wines.

Nor mine nor anyone elses. I just like both.

Oh well.

[Jinmyo]

Quote: from Bux on 9:10 pm on Jan. 11, 2002

I'm curious about the local winemakers in Normandy as I've never seen a vineyard in Normandy.

Gah. I haven't been there in decades and haven't discussed this with my tante and oncle. I'll see them in the summer. In the meantime, the area is around Les Andleys and Corny.

[Bux]

Les Andelys rings a bell. Is it not far from Giverny where Monet's garden is? My guess is that the nearest vineyards are towards the Loire. It's not so far away. Certainly one could easily get down, buy wine and return between lunch and dinner. If you're lucky enough to see them over there, try to get to Givery. Unfortunately the gardens get very crowded with tourists. Once a week, I think it's on Mondays, they let artists in to paint. You have to make an advance reservation. They let me in to photograph. It was quite wonderful because the gardens were almost deserted save for a few painters and one photographer.

I enjoy sake as well as syrah, although I know even less about sake than I do about syrah.

[Jinmyo]

Yes, it is near Giverny. I went there as a child. And I remember relatives saying they were taking some Swiss visitors there.

The city of Les Andley is overseen by a ruined castle on a hill, Chateau Gaier, built by Richard Lionheart.  Quite picturesque.

Hm. I know a bit about sake. Perhaps I should post a bit.

[Bux]

I know a bit about sake. Perhaps I should post a bit.

Hmm. I don't know. The more I know about anything the more of a connoisseur I want to become and in turn, the more money I spend on that thing. I don't know that I can afford to appreciate really good sake. I do know that when I've been to restaurant where I've ordered a more expensive bottle, I've really noticed the flavor. I also remember Stephen Beckta, who was sommelier at Cafe Boulud in NY, and is now at 11 Madison Park, recommending a sake with one of the hors d'oeuvres at Cafe Boulud. I forget the particulat food, but it was a great match. There's certain no hard reason to avoid mixing and matching European and Asian foods and wines.

Go ahead, start a new thread on sake. I'm all ears, or perhaps in terms of my monitor--all eyes (and an open gullet). I've been enjoying cold sakes.

(Edited by Bux at 2:17 pm on Jan. 14, 2002)

[A Balic]

Quote: from Bux on 9:07 pm on Jan. 13, 2002

There's certain no hard reason to avoid mixing and matching European and Asian foods and wines.

On the subject of Asian food and European wine matching, I have found the Sushi/Sushimi and Japanese food using butter sauces is well matched with lightly chilled Fino and Manzanilla sherry. Sherry is cheap and vastly under-rated so it can't hurt to try!

[A Balic]

Quote: from Bux on 9:07 pm on Jan. 13, 2002

There's certain no hard reason to avoid mixing and matching European and Asian foods and wines.

On the subject of Asian food and European wine matching, I have found the Sushi/Sushimi and Japanese food using butter sauces is well matched with lightly chilled Fino and Manzanilla sherry. Sherry is cheap and vastly under-rated so it can't hurt to try!

[Bux]

lightly chilled Fino and Manzanilla sherry. Sherry is cheap and vastly under-rated

I hadn't bought a manzanilla in years and was surprised at how little it had increased in price. Definitely a bargain now, at least here in NY.

[winodj]

I had a memorable shiraz/syrah wine this past weekend. at least i remember most of the weekend. some friends and i had a nice dinner and we drank a bottle of fat bastard 2000. really good, at least i thought.

Anyone else know of any good wines in this class? I do know to stay away from the Pepperwood Grove. Way to peppery - it was pretty awful. Too overpowering, and not at all subtle.

[A Balic]

Winodj, wine from the St Joseph region in the northern Rhone are really delicious Shiraz/Syrah wines that are not to expensive. Chapoutier is a good bet (as are most reds from this company). Try Tyrell's Rufus stone Heathcote Shiraz from Australia too. It is avalible in the UK (Oddbins etc), if you tell me if you are in the UK I could give you some more specific examples.