corked champagne

[tommy]

i've never had a problem with champagne being corked.  in fact, i've never actually heard of anyone complaining about it.  

last night was the first time.  and it wasn't pleasant.  pouring out a 10 dollar bottle of cote du rhone is one thing, but dumping a 40 dollar bottle of champagne quite another.

has this every happened to anyone?

[Wilfrid]

I did once open a couple of bottles of champagne which were more than ten years old, and they were flat as pancakes.  But that's a different problem, I guess.  Yours just tasted bad, but was still bubbly?

[tommy]

it was bubbly, just musty.  

i'd be curious to know what kind of failure rate the industry sees.  wine is generally around 5%.  maybe it's not so noticable with champagne, as i probably drink 100 times more wine than champagne.

[winodj]

How long are you keeping your champagne before you drink it? After the bottle has been shipped you really only have about 6 months before the champagne goes bad. Also make sure its being stored on its side. Was there cork in the champagne?

[TCD]

After the bottle has been shipped you really only have about 6 months before the champagne goes bad.

You're joking, right?

[Christopher]

After the bottle has been shipped you really only have about 6 months before the champagne goes bad.

You're joking, right?

I hope so!  GT has a whole mess of champagne stored standing for over six months in the cellar.

Champagne can be corked, flat, oxidized or otherwise off just like still wine. I often encounter a resistance when I pour a taste from a bottle of champagne with guests claiming that it is "Improper to taste champagne and that I should just pour."

OK, whatever you want but ...

[Tonyfinch]

No other single product in the field of gastronomy has been branded and marketed as successfully as champagne.Its fantastically skillful presentation as a "luxury product" means that people are still prepared to pay way over the odds for dross wine and still beam as they drink because they are "drinking champagne".

Some champagnes ARE worth plenty of ageing.The best take on all kinds of rich,toasty,patisserie shop aromas and tastes and can be wonderful at 20 years old if properly stored.

The difficulty is knowing which champagnes are worth ageing because most are certainly not.A reliable guide is essential here,and deep pockets because probably only the best wines from the best vintages will be worth it.

[winodj]

This may not be the case with dated vintages but my understanding has always been... if you buy undated champagne, it is not bottled to age. Its kind of a drink in the next few weeks to months thing.

[Wilfrid]

I often encounter a resistance when I pour a taste from a bottle of champagne with guests claiming that it is "Improper to taste champagne and that I should just pour."

OK, whatever you want but ...

Christopher, the "but..." intrigued me.  Whatever the reason for asking the customer to taste the wine before pouring might be (and the paramount reason might be that they expect it), it surely can't be to detect whether the bottle is bad (in the sense of corked, oxidised, or - in the case of a sparkling wine - flat).  I assume that any restaurant will take a bottle back if it's in such a condition, regardless of whether full glasses have been poured or not.  It's not like, you are wasting wine by filling all the glasses, because in this case the wine's bad anyway - arguably you are wasting some time.

I am perfectly happy to taste wine before it is poured, and quite enjoy doing so, but it has long struck me as a courteous ritual rather than a practical exercise - or am I missing something?

[tommy]

I am perfectly happy to taste wine before it is poured, and quite enjoy doing so, but it has long struck me as a courteous ritual rather than a practical exercise - or am I missing something?

you are missing something.

surely it's much more desirable for one person to have the taste of a wet basement in his mouth rather than a table of four, while toasting, or just enjoying their meal.  

the taster, in the event of a corked bottle (champagne or otherwise) is basically taking a hit for the team.  

perhaps a more effective method, time-wise and from a not-wanting-to-ruin-your-palate-standpoint, would be for the wine server to test the wine.  obviously, i don't see this as a practical solution, but it's a lot better then me getting that taste in my mouth.  (one reason it's not practical is that a huge percentage of servers have no idea why they are pouring the taste to begin with, which never ceases to amaze me.  with all of the money spent on wine by the customer at even the most basic of restaurants, management apparently sees little reason to give the servers even the most basic of wine service education.  "yes, it's very nice isn't it" is not an appropriate response to my declaration of "it's fine", or "thank you" upon the taste.  unacceptable, in my book.)

then again, rarely does one need to actually drink the wine to know if it's off.  a simple sniff will do it.

but i ramble.

[Christopher]

I am perfectly happy to taste wine before it is poured, and quite enjoy doing so, but it has long struck me as a courteous ritual rather than a practical exercise - or am I missing something?

It's both.

I can tell when I pull the cork from any wine, still or sparking, if it's corked. It's an unmistakable nose that leaps out the minute the cork is pulled and I wont even bring the bottle back to the table. But sometimes there are off flavours that cannot be detected save for the taste. And sometimes it's a matter of personal taste. (too dry, sweet, cloying etc.) So why not take the taste, and know that you're going to be happy?

Also, having wine in the glasses of the entire table can be my cue to the kitchen that I'm ready for food. If I fill all of your glasses on a "Just pour" command and the food hits the table, well, we have a time gap while food goes cold as I polish new glasses and try a second bottle. Yes of course we can take the plates back and probably will if it's going to be awhile (8 people with Riedel and decanting and all that) But if I can avoid that with a simple taste from the host it's great.

There are a few guests who will give me the go ahead to taste all of their wines 1st so that the meeting or whatever can continue uninterupted throughout dinner. But as Tommy said, you really have to trust and know your waiter/captain to have that happen. The guests who do that with me I know by name and we've established not only a rapport but an understanding about likes, dislikes, and prices.

Now I ramble ... :wow:

[tommy]

christopher can taste my wine *any* time.

you bring up another interesting aspect of tasting:  "i don't like this."

the only time i can imagine someone would send back an otherwise perfectly fine bottle because the wine wasn't their liking would be when it's recommended by the server.  otherwise, i would never do that.  i suppose one exception is if you are a very good customer who gives the restaurant a lot of business.  even then, that's pretty ballsy.  but hey, if it's going to ruin dinner, then you gotta get another bottle.  i suppose at that point it's up to the restaurant's policy to determine whether you're charged for it, and from a PR standpoint, it seems that they often might not charge.

i was at soho steak in NYC way back when, and i was presented with a bottle of white during the meal.  i was drinking red before that, but then decided white would go well with the app.  i gave it a taste, and detected something, but rather than suggest to the server, who was obviously oblivious to wine service, that the bottle was off, i gave the go ahead, hoping it would get a bit better (they rarely do).  i continued eating and finally gave the wine a proper taste.  it was definitely corked.  the server had poured my and my guest's glasses full.  it took probably 5 sips before declaring it undrinkable.

with this, i told the server.  her reply was, "well, you didn't tell me that before".  i suggested that i really didn't give it much of a taste because i was chewing, and it turns out that it is undrinkable. "well, you already drank half the bottle".  this nitwit couldn't see that the remainder of the bottle was sitting in our glasses, so i explained this fact.  she took the bottle away, and at this point we didn't want any white anyway.  i think we had another glass of red instead.

the bill comes, and there is the 35 dollar bottle on the bill.  i asked her about it, and she said that since i drank "almost all" of the wine, i'd have to pay.  i asked to speak to the manager.  he was too busy talking to his boys over at the corner table to get up and have a discussion with me.  the server came back with that tone of "i'm doing you a big favor", and presented me with a lesser bill.  it wasn't until i left that i realized they had charged me for half of the bottle!!!!  had i realized this, i would have obviously taken it from her tip, which would have left her with exactly zero dollars as a tip, and me not paying for the wine.

needless to say, i've never been back, nor will i ever go back or recommend the place to anyone.  it's a shame, because the food was fair enough for what it is.

thoughts?

now i *really* ramble.

[Wilfrid]

Well, I have been trying of a way to make my question about the reason for tasting seem smarter than it was, but I give up.  Yes, I can see it practical after all, especially given Christopher's point about the cue for food service.

When to send wine back is another thread, I suppose.  Let me go off and start it...

[tommy]

Well, I have been trying of a way to make my question about the reason for tasting seem smarter than it was, but I give up.  Yes, I can see it practical after all, especially given Christopher's point about the cue for food service.

When to send wine back is another thread, I suppose.  Let me go off and start it...

my point about having a foul taste in the entire table's mouth rather than one person's, and the interruption of the proceedings in order to send back a bad bottle wasn't convincing?!?!?!?!

more proof that rambling seldom gets me anywhere.  generally, if i see a post with more than 4 paragraphs or so, i skip it too.  

[Wilfrid]

Yes, of course it was, but I am trying to impress Christopher.  There is no point trying to impress you - you've met me.

:confused:

[tommy]

Yes, of course it was, but I am trying to impress Christopher.  There is no point trying to impress you - you've met me.

:confused:

don't be so hard on yourself.  we don't think you're a complete buffoon as far as you know.