Spain/Italy

[vserna]

On Robert Parker's wine board, a thread on whether a beginner should concentrate on Spanish or Italian wine (a slightly absurd dilemma to begin with) has taken an unexpected culinary twist, with proponents of restaurants in either country (myself included) taking turns explaining their positions. Just this once, I think a link to another board can be of some interest to us here (where many people, of course, know a lot more about food and restaurants than those on that vinous board):

http://fora.erobertparker.com/cgi-bin/ulti...ic/1/38929.html

Edited September 10, 2004 by vserna (log)

[docsconz]

The nice thing is that one doesn't really have to choose. I love them both.

[butterfly]

Ah, I've heard this all before... I think the crux of the matter is that most people visiting Spain look for what they expect to find and miss 90% of the good stuff because they don't know that it exists.

Most of the guidebooks for Spain are inexcusably bad when it comes to culinary matters. That, compounded with the fact that visitors rarely eat the right things at the right times and don't understand the entirely different style of eating here, can lead to very disappointing and unrepresentative experiences. Even Egullet can't help you to find a good meal if you try to eat dinner at 8:00 or 9:00pm!

Even after living here in the past, visiting frequently, and having Spanish roots here, when we moved here, it took us a good two months to really culturally deprogram ourselves to integrate into the Spanish rhythm of life (and eating). For someone who comes from a radically different culture (like the US), a short visit probably isn't going to reveal the best that Spain has to offer.

[JesusBarquin]

Interesting reflection, Butterfly, but -forgetting any worthless discussion about which country is the wicked and which the wondrous- just two points:

- 21:00 is not a bad time to have dinner in almost any place of Spain nowadays.

- Most of what you say could also be told of most people from the USA (or the UK, or...) travelling to Italy. I do not tend to believe that the idea they have in mind of cuccina toscana, latina, napolitana or even venetiana (such delightful fish dishes!) matches with the real thing. Well, unless we guess they actually do not look for (and therefore do not ussually find) that "real thing" at restaurants or wherever they eat in Italy.

[vserna]

I'm not sure I agree, Jesús. Anyone interested in food in New York or LA or Chicago has a pretty fair chance of getting to know very good Italian cuisine. I know some nitpicking critics accuse a Babbo or Il Giglio of not being as authentic as they could be, but obviously they're miles and miles ahead of Sevilla or El Faro in sheer culinary quality!

(Go to Paris or London, with Il Cortile or the River Café, and the situation is similar. Heck, even in Madrid we have a couple of great Italian restaurants. Italian cuisine travels well! It's somewhat less raw ingredients-dependent than Spanish cuisine, which helps, and also Italians have travelled much more widely - and made many of their basic ingredients available everywhere - than Spaniards, who for 500 years have migrated almost exclusively to Latin America... and a little to New Jersey... .)

At any rate, an American diner arriving in Italy for the first time will immediately have many points of reference and comparison. Also, there are millions of Americans with an Italian background who are familiar with their culinary traditions and proud of them, and very few of Spanish (meaning: from Spain, not from Latin America) extraction.

Indeed, there are very few European nations (perhaps... Luxembourg and Latvia?) with a smaller presence than Spain amid that immense group formed by European immigrants and their kin in the US. That's always been a real obstacle to the penetration and understanding of Spanish cuisine there. Emigrants are always powerful culinary ambassadors, and ours were in Argentina and Peru, not in Massachusetts or even, for the past 180 years, in California or Texas...

So it's sometimes hard to explain, in the US, that there are as many Michelin three-stars in Spain as in Italy. That's why it was such a shocker last year (outside foodie circles) when the NYT Magazine came out with that provocative cover story, "The new France". Italy had never received such royal treatment...

[JesusBarquin]

Víctor, maybe I should have had in mind the average reader/writer in eGullet, but in fact I was thinking of so many people (the spaniards, the first, I'm afraid) who have a certain image of italian cuisine without knowing but the surface. How many of them pretend to taste the real tuscan cuisine and, when in front of a dish of trippa or faggioli, and a contorno di fiori di zucca, feel completely puzzled!

One the repeated arguments in Squires' was: "most of the people I know think that they eat better in Italy than they do in Spain", and I just do not think that those 'most' go regularly to good italian restaurants at home. That's why I think that, though your (I mean butterfly's and yours) reflections are deep and (for sure) right, maybe the widespread state of mind concerning the excellent level of italian cuisine has more to do with a question of general historical sympathy than with real knowledge.

Well, I see that this leads us again to inmigration and cultural penetration...

[francesco]

On Robert Parker's wine board, a thread on whether a beginner should concentrate on Spanish or Italian wine (a slightly absurd dilemma to begin with) has taken an unexpected culinary twist, with proponents of restaurants in either country (myself included) taking turns explaining their positions. Just this once, I think a link to another board can be of some interest to us here (where many people, of course, know a lot more about food and restaurants than those on that vinous board):

http://fora.erobertparker.com/cgi-bin/ulti...ic/1/38929.html

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Victor,

I am getting the impression that you trying to argue that Spanish cuisine is "better" in some sense than Italian. I think you're doing this with a substantial tongue in cheek, but I'll take you up on the challange regardless

I find the arguments that you've used, however seriously you mean to put them forward, rather weak. You can certainly argue that there is a sense throughout the world that Spanish haute cuisine is at the top in terms of creativity. I believe the explanation as to why it hasn't happened in Italy is two-fold. The first reason is Ferran Adria. What is most interesting to me, however, is the second reason. I actually do believe that Adria would have had a much harder time had he been born or worked in Italy and the reason is just one word: expectations.

I strongly believe that modern Spanish avant-garde cuisine was allowed to develop precisely because Spanish cuisine itself had no big luggage in terms of expectations within the international community that goes to haute cuine restaurants. If you follow e-gullet's Italy forum, you will often read a significant amount of posts where Italy's haute cuisine restaurants are often dismissed because they don't provide the "true" Italian dining experience. This, BTW, is part of the Italian mentality as well. The most common comment is that they are some imitation of French. It is very difficult for such restaurants to carve themselves a niche where they can survive given that everywhere haute-cuisine restaurants depend heavily on the the need to provide an Italian experience. Thus, up to now you've either had the lone ranger in a big city that compares himself to the great French tradition (Marchesi) or the provincial restaurant which elevates traditional cuisine to new heights (Santini at Il Pescatore). Still the problems exist: I have always found Italian haute cuisine restaurants the easiest to make a reservation at with short notice.

It was no coincidence that it was only in Italy that women who had not trained as chefs have the majority of 3 stars restaurants. The consequence is that only now some people like Alajmo and Cedroni (does anyone know him outside of Italy?) are beginning to go in the "creative" direction. Even now when many Italian chefs have made their trip to El Bulli or even trained under Adria, very few restaurants dare go completely in that direction. Alajmo and Cedroni were butchered by certain Italian press for years. Incidentally, I am not too unhappy that Italian haute cuisine has not internationalized itself too much.

Besides, if I had asked "where in Spain is a chef under *31* of Massimiliano Alajmo's quality?" what wold you have said?

Once you leave haute cuisine, however, things are quite different. I know how you feel about Michelin but while I am perfectly happy to believe that there is a strong bias against Spain, I also believe and most Italians believe that there is a strong bias against Italy. And yet Italy has about double the Michelin stars that Spain has: that tells me something about the quality of restaurants at lower levels.

If you forget about restaurants and look at products and cuisine themselves, I just don't see how you can argue that Spain is superior in terms of either variety or quality. Surely Jamon Iberico cannot be the only example (and besides, Prosciutto di Cinta Senese is a worthy competitor for that style of ham). What about other pork products? Is there anything like Culatello, Lardo di Colonnata? What about the cheeses? What about the wines?

More generally, does Spain have the variety of regional cuisines that Italy has? This is where you discuss cuisines, not restaurants and I think you'll have a tough time on that front.

Francesco

[JesusBarquin]

If you forget about restaurants and look at products and cuisine themselves, I just don't see how you can argue that Spain is superior in terms of either variety or quality. Surely Jamon Iberico cannot be the only example (and besides, Prosciutto di Cinta Senese is a worthy competitor for that style of ham). What about other pork products? Is there anything like Culatello, Lardo di Colonnata? What about the cheeses? What about the wines?

More generally, does Spain have the variety of regional cuisines that Italy has? This is where you discuss cuisines, not restaurants and I think you'll have a tough time on that front.     

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May a passionate of Italy suggest that, given that you write such things, maybe you just know very little about Spain and its very rich variety of products and regional cuisines?

("What about other pork products?": Astounding indeed! )

And secondly: if you only want to speak with VS, why don't you send him a pm?

Cheers, Jesús

[Boris_A]

Once you leave haute cuisine, however, things are quite different.

As a side note, the number of extremes at the top are not suited to judge the average level of a population.

For example, a population with many giants and dwarfs can produce many more giants than another more evenly distributed population, yet the average body height can still be considerably higher with the latter.

Nevertheless, even though I find the notion of "national competition" much better suited for things like soccer or tennis than for cuisine, Spain seems to be more on the move than Italy wrt. modern cuisine.

[vserna]

I'm not as fond of trolls as you seem to be, francesco...

As Jesús points out, your questions reveal (no disrespect intended) a very scant level of knowledge of Spanish food. So I'd rather not get into an argument in which only one would have any cues about the appropriate comparisons.

One more thing: please don't make me say what I haven't said or written: "I am getting the impression that you trying to argue that Spanish cuisine is "better" in some sense than Italian." ???? I haven't even gone tangentially into anyone's superiority, here or on the Parker board.

[francesco]

I'm not as fond of trolls as you seem to be, francesco...

As Jesús points out, your questions reveal (no disrespect intended) a very scant level of knowledge of Spanish food. So I'd rather not get into an argument in which only one would have any cues about the appropriate comparisons.

I am happy to bow to your superiority in all things Spanish. Clearly, I didn't get my message across well. I was simply making the points that 1) one cannot discuss the relative merits of different cuisines on the basis of the top restaurants in each country 2) if one accepts the first point, then neither you nor anyone else has offered any evidence to suggest that Italian cuisine is behind Spanish cuisine. I limited myself to citing Iberico because that was the only Spanish product mentioned in the thread you were originally referring to. And I was simply making the point that you'd need more than Iberico to convince me or any Italian that there is a Spanish superiority even within the limited area of pork products.

One more thing: please don't make me say what I haven't said or written: "I am getting the impression that you trying to argue that Spanish cuisine is "better" in some sense than Italian." ???? I haven't even gone tangentially into anyone's superiority, here or on the Parker board.

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Well, then I really grossly misunderstood. If you read the thread you cited, at some point someone makes the point that Italian cuisine is the greatest in the world and your reply to the individual in question says

"Re "the greatest cuisine in the world" - it seems the news about Ferran Adrià and the Spanish culinary revolution hasn't percolated down to every corner of the old US of A...."

which, to everyone's mind, might suggest that you disagree. But no matter, I did suggest you were making those statements tongue-in-cheek and you chose to ignore that.

Francesco

[francesco]

May a passionate of Italy suggest that, given that you write such things, maybe you just know very little about Spain and its very rich variety of products and regional cuisines?

("What about other pork products?": Astounding indeed!    )

I replied to vserna on this point already. My point was not that of listing item by item Italian products comparing them with Spanish ones, but I was simply suggesting that to choose the very top of haute cuisine as a basis for comparison between the two countries and forgetting everything else, which matters much more, is unfair. I hope you can believe I was not under the impression that Iberico is the only pork product produced in Spain.

And secondly: if you only want to speak with VS, why don't you send him a pm?   

Cheers, Jesús

What gave you that idea? I was replying to his comments on the thread he cited, but I certainly didn't think this discussion would just interest him. It seems it actually doesn't interest him because I am too ignorant of Spanish cuisine to discuss these issues. One can only hope he is much more competent than me when he discusses Italian cuisine.

Francesco

[JesusBarquin]

Francesco, you insist on reading a disagreement with the opinion "Italian cuisine is so better than spanish cuisine that, in fact, there is nothing to discuss" as an statement on the superiority of spanish cuisine. We just say: "That way of thinking is wrong and it reveals scarce knowledge of spanish gastronomy".

It seems that some of us (not only VS: that is why I did the remark, no lack of rispect intended) agree about more or less the following: "This kind of contest is so pointless that, in fact, there is nothing to discuss". As to me, I like them both and do not feel at all like choosing.

And believe that your remark about pork was really shocking, as there is an incredible variety of products made from this animal (different races, with cerdo ibérico on top of them all) all over Spain, from the Canary Islands to Catalonia and from the Balearic I. to Galicia.

Salute! Jesús

[francesco]

Francesco, you insist on reading a disagreement with the opinion "Italian cuisine is so better than spanish cuisine that, in fact, there is nothing to discuss" as an statement on the superiority of spanish cuisine. We just say: "That way of thinking is wrong and it reveals scarce knowledge of spanish gastronomy".

It seems that some of us (not only VS: that is why I did the remark, no lack of rispect intended) agree about more or less the following: "This kind of contest is so pointless that, in fact, there is nothing to discuss". As to me, I like them both and do not feel at all like choosing. 

Well, no argument here. Rightly or wrongly, I was trying to argue the same against what I felt was the opposite statement. I accept that this was all a big misunderstanding although perhaps the accusations of trolling after I spent several hundred words describing my impressions on Italian haute cuisine did seem unnecessary.

Incidentally, that is why I replied specifically to vserna: because it was he specific comment that I was addressing. What I didn't like wasn't so much the phrase, but the idea that Ferran Adria was somehow even relevant to that debate.

And believe that your remark about pork was really shocking, as there is an incredible variety of products made from this animal (different races, with cerdo ibérico on top of them all) all over Spain, from the Canary Islands to Catalonia and from the Balearic I. to Galicia.

Again, let me reiterate that I never was under the impression that there are no pork products in Spain other than Iberico, nor that there were no cheeses nor wines. I mean, if I write on egullet (and this wasn't my first post), at least I should have that much knowledge...

I was just trying to make the different point that even if we concentrated on pork products, which are clearly one of Spain's strenghts, the variety and quality of pork products available in Italy would not warrant a statement of Spanish superiority. Culatello and Lardo di Colonnata were just two examples of Italian pork products that are 1) unique either because of the specific part of the animal used and/or because of the production process involved 2) of undisputable high quality.

I accept that I didn't explain myself very well, but if you think about it that's pretty much the only interpretation possible, unless you wish to believe that I was claiming that Spain produces no cheese or wine of any distinction (no wonder this interpretation would be shocking).

Best,

Francesco

[JesusBarquin]

Francesco, so it seems that we more or less have the same point of view from our own experience.

I'll tell you a secret: if I were obliged (gun in the forehead) to decide to eat and drink the rest of my life only spanish or italian wine, products and cuisine, I would choose the latter: a whole world to improve my knowledge!

But I would choose other than Spain only in the case of Italy, France and maybe Portugal and two or three countries in the far east (and perhaps a couple of american countries), because here in my country there is always much to be discovered...

[dfunghi]

Apples and Oranges. Different pallets will "taste " foods differently. Each country has its own wonderful cuisine and it is hard to declare that ones haute is better than anothers centuries old and vice versa. As to wine '78 G Contrno Borolo was divine but no more so than th '61 Gran Reserva I had ( producer eludes me at the moment) which was equally stunning. Iberico gran reserva ham is one of the finest things I have ever eaten as was borolo cured homemade salumi in Liguria. The baby lamb in Spain , so tiny, so yummie. The large whole Cuttlefish with sepia in Amalfi equally yummie. I could go on forever. BTW Robert Parker and his followers may not be the best judge of anything, specially food and wine IMHO

Of course National Pride wil always make things taste better.

Happy Eating ,

David

[vmilor]

Francesco is making so many excellent points which seems to get lost in the emotional discussion which ensues. He is not making any personal point and he is very respectful. This is actually why personally I refrain from participation in forums: chances of wrongful accusations are too high and it takes too much effort to set the record straight.

This said, let me throw in my tuppence worth of observations. Having a reasonable knowledge of both cuisine and products I came to a conclusion similar to dfungi. Spain and Italy lead the Western World in terms of the quality seafood/meat/cured meat and fruits and vegetables products and Turkey may catch up--except in pork products. Glad to have both.

On the other hand, I observed more individual styles and notable differences in different Italian regions than in Spain. More refined eating seems to be concentrated in the Basque and Catalan regions in Spain whereas they are more widespread in Italy. But Spain is catching up as illustrated, say, in Robert Brown's adventures in the Pyrenees. Yet, when one visits, say Galicia, which perhaps has better shellfish than any other region anywhere I have visited, one can not help to observe an assymetry between the level of cooking and the quality of ingredients.(Actually in Northern Spain the quality of ingredients and the level of cooking is inversely related) In Venezia, on the other hand, with the availability of superb seafood from the Adriatic you have not only Massimiliano(Le Calandre), but quite a few others(La Peca, Perbellini, and more if you want me to spell out...) who are world class chefs in their own right.

Francesco's central insight about the dilemmas of Italian cuisine is genial. I observed the same and lament both the fact that very talented chefs in Italy are barred from experimenting, yet the traditional cuisine gives so much pleasure that the conservatives are not totally wrong! Personally I can do no more than pointing this dilemma out. At the same time I feel that even the most pro French chefs in Italy (such as Gambero Rosso) impart a different sensibility to their dishes by way of an unmistakeable focus on a central ingredient. Spanish multi star chefs on the other hand(Santamaria, Barasetequi) are more "French" in the sense that they transform many ingredients in (sometimes) ingenous ways and prepare very complex, always Rococco style dishes. In Italy the over elaborate design is usually in the dining room, not on the palate. This does not, however, mean that the dishes lack refinement. Quite the contrary. But it takes time to appreciate "simple" looking dishes which can conceal tremendous time tested sophistication.

Finally, with the possible exception of 2 Bay Area restaurants, i.e. Oliveto and Delfina, I do not think that Italian cooking in the States come anywhere close what you find in Italy. The 2 I mentioned are good because they do not overreach and adapt Italian techniques to Northern California ingredients.

[vserna]

Yet, when one visits, say Galicia, which perhaps has better shellfish than any other region anywhere  I have visited, one can not help to observe an assymetry between the level of cooking and the quality of ingredients.(Actually in Northern Spain the quality of ingredients and the level of cooking is inversely related) .

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Well, I beg to differ...

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=48392

And other Spanish participants would, too:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=50261