L'Astrance

[lizziee]

"The reality is that the French would much rather fill their restaurant with French than Americans, but that there are only a small handful of restaurants where this is really possible.  The French are genuinely xenophobic and have a much stronger affinity for their own group and a dislike of foreigners, than we would recognize as Americans." (Marcus)

"I wish I didn't agree with you, Marcus, but I do. Many of the French live in their own world. And it's a very nice world, and they don't seem that interested in leaving it or having it changed by others. Some Americans do things in Paris restaurants that some French staff find bizarre: they hold the fork in the wrong hand, switching it back and forth to cut their food and eat it; they ask for sauces "on the side"; they demand that coffee be served at the same time as dessert." (JD)

I think that the reason that the French prefer to serve someone who is French is that a Frenchman dines the "French Way." They know that the meal is leisurely. They don't order a scotch or martini before dinner. They don't change the menu to suit their dietary habits. They don't use a salt shaker before tasting a dish. They never order coffee during a meal, etc.

I think it is arrogant of Americans to demand that the French change their world to accommodate what we are used to. Why should we expect a Frenchman to speak English? If we are stopped in the street in Memphis or New York or LA and a Frenchman rapidly asked for directions in French and then became annoyed that we didn't speak his language, who is begging the question of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Yet, Americans seem to insist that English is the only language and become annoyed when they are not understood.

Some years ago, Taillevent was the worst when it came to reservations when it came to Americans. Vrinat absolutely insisted on a French restaurant populated by French and had a strict policy as to how many foreigners were allowed on a given night. This has changed somewhat given the economy. I have noticed, however, that lunch seems to be dominated more by French than dinner; my son who did a stage at Guy Savoy said that lunch was French, dinner - American.

But what is unforgivable is accepting a reservation and then canceling it. If Astrance is actually doing this, I would agree with Robert Brown that a note be sent to Michelin immediately with a copy to the restaurant. Trust me, this works for praise as well as for criticism.

I know when I made a reservation at Astrance through our concierge, he said it was the hardest reservation for him to attain. But as he is "the best" and well-known throughout "food circles", he got reservations for 2 different times in the space of three weeks. (For me, it wasn't worth it, but that's another story.)

As for people being a no show - shooting is too nice. When we were in Carcassone we visited the special devices invented during the Inquisition - now that's an idea for no shows! (This is obviously an overstatement as I wouldn't want this to happen to anyone for any reason.) I wish there was a sure fire way to prevent this onerous habit and I agree with Marc that I will only help someone with a reservation who is a close friend and who will show up, no matter what, except if they are in a casket.

Edit:

I am sorry that I attributed a quote to Bux when it should have been attributed to JD

[robert brown]

If you're an American who objects to being surrounded by Americans in a restaurant in France, no one else in the restaurant is able to tell you're an American.

[Tonyfinch]

Some Americans do things in Paris restaurants that some French staff find bizarre: they hold the fork in the wrong hand, switching it back and forth to cut their food and eat it; they demand that coffee be served at the same time as dessert." (JD)

Sacre Bleu! Zoot Alors! What SAVAGES you Americans are. Coffee with dessert!

The truth is that the French en masse are a nation of xenophobic, paranoid snobs,filled with resentment that English has become the world's lingua franca because Americans speak English.

They elect Fascist councils and Mayors all over the South,refuse to recognize the concept of multi culturalism and inorder to compensate for their linguistic and cultural irrelevance they like nothing better than to muck foriegners around over restaurant reservations and peer down their noses at people who might now and again deviate from the so called French way.

Fuck L'Astrance.Write to every American guidebook and publication urging your countyrmen to boycott it and every other stuck up restaurant that gives you a hard time. Then,if they love having French customers so much,theyll presumably be happy to get buy on French punters alone.

[marcus]

Tonyfinch -- I don't think that your intemperate response is helpful in trying to develop a nuanced approach to deal across cultural divides. I don't believe that anyone has yet demonstrated that Astrance had any role in the reservation problem that kicked off this thread.

Bux -- I personally consider myself a Francophile and admire the French not just for their food, but for their overall approach to life and even their intellectualism, although in the case of the latter not always. That doesn't mean that an objective and dispassionate appraisal doesn't show problems.

Lizziee -- We need to have selfconfidence as Americans, and not show an inferiority complex where we attribute problems to our not doing things right. I don't believe that the problem of Americans or other foreigners obtaining reservations has very much to do with manners or with failing to honor reservations. I once read a fascinating article, I believe in the NYT magazine, but I'm not sure, by an American woman of French background who spoke fluent French. She described the difference in living in France as an English speaker versus as a French speaker. When she spoke native French, attitudes were entirely different in numerous ways, and people were helpful to her almost to the extent of it seeming like an extended family. This include everything from her hairdresser to shopping.ds

[hollywood]

I thought half the French mayors and local officials were now women, yes?

Following this thread, it's not clear if the problem is with Astrance or the concierage. Worst case, there's some sort of secondary market in Astrance reservations.

[Bux]

They elect Fascist councils and Mayors all over the South

Your post is confusing, I thought you were starting to speak about the US here.

I do like the part where you blame us for spreading the English language. Most Englishmen seem to want to take the credit/blame for that.

I'm not yet convinced that the culpability with all this lies with l'Astrance. Most Americans who have managed to get a reservation there, and I know of those who did so early in the life of the restaurant and without connections, seem to have been treated well. If there has been a change in policy, I'd be curious in understanding why it's occurred. I find too many people all too eager to cut their noses to spite their faces and boycott a place on runor and innuendo. Worse yet, I've known too many people who urge others to sacrifice and boycott a product, place or group.

For all that's been said, I'm not sure Americans are the most serious offenders when it comes to no shows, but I know my countrymen have a far more casual sense of responsibility about cancelling a reservation than do the French. I don't know how many of you have actually been to l'Astrance. I'm also not sure of how many guests it can serve, but my vague recollection is that a no show four top may deprive the restaurant of approximately ten percent of the evening's profits. This is also not a place with a bar.

[Jonathan Day]

I once read a fascinating article, I believe in the NYT magazine, but I'm not sure, by an American woman of French background who spoke fluent French.  She described the difference in living in France as an English speaker versus as a French speaker.  When she spoke native French, attitudes were entirely different in numerous ways, and people were helpful to her almost to the extent of it seeming like an extended family.  This include everything from her hairdresser to shopping.

You don't need to speak with native fluency to have this experience. I speak French pretty well, though not at native level -- probably one notch below that. I can speak, read and write fairly easily, but would miserably fail one of Bernard Pivot's dictées mostly because I am not up-to-date with modern idiom.

And I speak with a heavy accent, which many native speakers assume is either Canadian or Belgian. But the French love their language and tend to welcome those who use it, even with a strange accent and mistakes. I've seen them warmly welcome people who speak at a very elementary level, as long as they try. That's what counts.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I'll second what JD said and add that it goes beyond language. If the French see that you understand or are interested in their customs, they will go out of their way to make your experience better. You can't imagine how much your standing can rise with a waiter if you order your steak "saignant" (rare.)

People have mentioned French xenophobia but there hasn't been much discussion about its source which is French pride. The French devised a system that offered the best quality of life to be had in the western world. But history has dealt them the wrong hand for the future. Their xenophobia is really a defense mechanism to insulate themselves from a changing world. Unfortunately, their assimilation into the rest of the world is just a matter of time. But it also means that as it happens their way of life is disappearing. This was always the contradiction for Americans. We wanted their way of life but our way of making money. Now that they are starting to learn how to make money our way, we are complaining that the bread is now mass produced and the cheese is made from pasteurized milk.

[Tonyfinch]

Tonyfinch -- I don't think that your intemperate response is helpful in trying to develop a nuanced approach to deal across cultural divides.

We're not talking about some lost tribe of the deepest Amazon here. We're talking about France for God's sake. What "cultural divides"?

It's been clearly implied on this thread by those with experience of trying to book restaurants in France that there may well be some discrimination in the way you're treated depending on whether you are French or not. Lizzie says that "the French prefer to serve someone who is French because a Frenchman dines in the French way"

Take out the word "French" and substitute the word "White" there for a minute. It is prejuduce and discrimination pure and simple and it runs like a stain through French cultural and social life and it needs challenging not appeasing.

There may be good reasons WHY it is the case but so what? As was said on the infamous Nazi thread,there were good reasons for the rise of Hitler.

I do not believe for a second that Americans are any more responsible for no shows in restaurants than any other nationality. No shows are a major problem in all restaurants in all parts of the world. As has been pointed out,there are measures to tackle it. To attribute it to any particular group is just another way of reinforcing prejudice.

[thefoodhunter]

I went on the web and found this site:

paris@reservethebest.com

I tried to reserve at Astrance and a pop up gave me a phone number to call. It was the Astrance number they have no available dates for at least a month. However, when trying to reserve for Taillevent or Gagnaire I clicked on reserve and got a pop-up form to fill out and send in. I have no plans to go to any of these places soon so I didn't fill it out. Might be worth checking out as an alternative to concierges.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony - Cultural discrimination and race based discrimination are not the same thing. For example, I haven't noticed French Jews being treated then other French people. Hitler gassed the German Jews because they "weren't really Germans." So it's one thing to point out French bias which we all agree exists. It's another to mischaracterize them as doing something worse then what they actually do.

[Jonathan Day]

Tony, at one level I agree with you.

I suppose my personal sensitivity to these things has been somewhat eroded after 12 years in the UK, with a fairly steady level of silly assumptions about Americans; clubs within major companies whose charter reads "No women, no Americans"; TV shows with the title "Americans: Rich, Fat, Dumb" (this was presented by Jonathan Ross); and, at a personal level, questions such as "when are you going back?" and the like. This despite living in a primarily British neighbourhood, owning property here, raising children in the British school system, working with British companies, and so on. My (British) English is at least as good as my French, and my accent, which remains largely American, no more different from the native than with French. Yet the roots of discrimination are deep and strong.

We lived in a racially mixed neighbourhood in the US, in a semi-detached (duplex) house with a black family on the other side of a shared wall. They were good friends, and there were many shared meals and drinks on the porch. I thought I knew something about discrimination back then. I did not. It took becoming a member of a "minority" to understand something about this.

Don't get me wrong: I love the UK and my British friends and colleagues. This place has been good to us, though on days like today (firefighters' strike, tubes not working well) I could wish that London's infrastructure worked better.

Nor do I think that there is a direct connection between this behaviour and the horrors of Naziism. But cultural discrimination is real, and I don't believe we will see the back of it for a long time, either in the UK or on the continent.

And of course it appears in America as well, though often with the opposite polarity: many Americans think that anyone with a British accent is witty, highly educated, sophisticated.

Rather than condemning the French or the British or any nationality, I think we would do better to try to find "bridges" that enable people of different cultures to meet as individuals rather than abstract representatives of races or nationalities. In our case, for example, the children have been a lifeline. Perhaps a shared interest in food and wine could have the same effect.

[Tonyfinch]

Fair'nuff. I wasn't trying to compare the problems of trying to book a table at L'Astrance to the horrors of Nazism and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I shouldn't have mentioned Hitler. I suppose my main point is that cultural discrimimation should be challenged as well as understood.

[becky]

I've been lurking for a long time and perhaps now may not be the best time to jump into these "murky" waters but I'd like to know if Ellenesk has pursued this further and has gotten anywhere. Also, I'd like to add that I have always had extremely good luck with concierge in hotels in Paris. Perhaps it has to do with the quality of the hotel and if the concierge has some "pull". The last time we reserved at Gagnaire, through the concierge in the hotel, I was asked for a credit card, though a deposit was not debited to it. I do know of a friend who made her reservations at Gagnaire directly via fax and the credit card she supplied was charged 100 euros per person (she said it made the final bill more palatable ). If a restaurant gets a lot of "no shows" why don't they ask for a credit card? I think if you give a credit card, address and phone you are more likely to cancel a reservation instead of not showing up and getting charged.

[lizziee]

becky,

Glad you are no longer lurking. Please feel free to join the "murky" waters any time. I look forward to more of your posts. By the way, how was Gagnaire?

[Bux]

Funny thing, we had the same experience with Gagnaire and our concierge. As far as I know, American Express is the only credit card company who has said they will support a restaurant's charge for a no show. Nevertheless, I don't believe they will be able to make that stick with any card holder unless they have a written document confiming both the reservation and the agreement for the charge. In the case you cite, which is the first I've heard of for a restaurant, the charge was apparently made well in advance. I suspect that once the cardholder has seen the charge and has not contested it he's stuck with the charge. If the charge is made well enough in advance so that contesting what is essentially a non refundable deposit would also lose the reservation that works. But if the charge is made so it appears before the next bill is due, it may be very easy to contest it unless the restaurant has a signed slip for the deposit.

[becky]

I enjoy reading the posts, but I am not much of a writer.

Gagnaire was incredible, superb, not enough adjetives to describe what a wonderful evening we spent there. And the cost was worth every penny.

Bux said: "it may be very easy to contest it unless the restaurant has a signed slip for the deposit. "

Gagnaire sent a fax which required name, address, and credit card information and I had to sign it giving authorization to charge a deposit if we did not show up or cancel. Perhaps that's the way to go for all these small restaurants like Astrance so they don't loose out and neither do we.

[ellenesk]

For those of you who were looking for an update.

We were unable to secure a table at l'astrance and ate at angle du fauborg(taillavent's second restaurant) and had a very nice meal(great foie gras and superb service). Reasonably priced wine list as we..

We also dined at l'ambroise which was a disappointment(see separate posting)

Next time, I will not consult my concierge, make my own reservations, and follow up in writing, via fedex(L'astrance does not respond to faxes).

Ellen

[Bux]

Fair'nuff. I wasn't trying to compare the problems of trying to book a table at L'Astrance to the horrors of Nazism and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I shouldn't have mentioned Hitler. I suppose my main point is that cultural discrimimation should be challenged as well as understood.

There's a pretty widely acknowledged law in cyberspace discussions that the first person to mention Hitler looses the argument. One mention of Hitler is worth a half dozen ad hominems. One ad hominem is all one needs to have a post considered devoid of reason or meaning.

Earlier I mentioned that I say a club restricted to a minority in quite a different light than one that restricted minorities. I think we allow any group a certain right to mingle and offer each other small privileges. The French may at times abuse this privilege, but when we feel a need to take them to task, it should be done rationally and with the understanding that other cultures, usually our own, are far from faultless.

[Bux]

Next time, I will not consult my concierge, make my own reservations, and follow up in writing, via fedex(L'astrance does not respond to faxes).

I'm not sure there's a single solution that will work all the time. The phone, and then only if you speak French, is the only way I know you are assured of getting a response, but a reservation over the phone is not as comforting as one that's in writing. We've had restaurants not respond to all sorts of inquiries. No response may mean they've entered your name into the books, or it may mean they're fully booked and have no time for you.

Smaller hotels and restaurants that don't usually fill up far in advance just assume we understand they will reserve a room or table for us and they sometimes feel no need to respond. Our phone call follow up is often answered something like this, "Of course we got your fax and have reserved a room (table) for you." When we arrive and see they're not sold out, we have a better understanding of their nonchalance, but it doesn't stop us from worrying that it's arrogance, not nonchalance, that is at the root of the no reply next time.

[Steve Plotnicki]

There's a more nuanced version of referring to Hitler during a discussion then you are offering. Hitler, besides slaughtering millions of people, actuallly had theorys about mankind you know. Quite often I hear someone cite a theory that one could portray as "Hitlerian in nature," not using Hitler in the context of a murderer but in the simpler context of a fascist. Or maybe a better example would be that if someone proposed to erect Albert Speer like buildings one could call them "Hitlerian" and not be subject to their argument being "devoid of reason." But I agree with you that comparing the French to the Nazis (in this context) is going overboard.

[Bux]

Or maybe a better example would be that if someone proposed to erect Albert Speer like buildings one could call them "Hitlerian" and not be subject to their argument being "devoid of reason."

Seems like an ad hominem attack on a building.

I mean one could actually criticize a building on its merits, rather than smear it by associating it with a despicable name. Famous people's names often become modifiers of speech. A wagnarian proposal will likely be considered overblown or at least large in scope and I think fairly so. A buidling would have to threaten civilization as we know it and and be guilty of genocide before I'd think of it as hitlarian. There is a fascist style of architecture, but Moussolini is at least as much identified with that as Hitler. Speer's monumentalism works as well for Stalin as Htiler. But we're off topic and I'll let you have the last word, if you want to respond on this.

[Steve Plotnicki]

But it's not a smear. Speer's buildings were designed to curry favor with Hitler. Had he not tried to please Hitler he probably would have designed them differently. That's why they are "Hitlerian in nature." Is this an odd way to say things? Aren't there things that are "Napoleanesque?" It just doesn't have the same negative connotation because he wasn't a genocidist. And that building on the outskirts of Rome that was designed during Mussolini's reign is never associated with the architect, it's always associated with Mussolini because it was designed to please him and is such a perfect symbol of fascism.

[robert brown]

The entire Third Reich was predicated on pleasing the Fuehrer. Whether it was the Reichsparteitagsgelaende (rally grounds) in Nuremburg, the Foreign Ministry in Moscow, or the EUR in Rome, the driving force was to create a "timeless" neo-Classical monumentality that evoked the supremacy of the State. I think the leader who commissioned these kind of buildings was secondary to their evocation, let alone the design approach. So as not to be completely off-topic, dining at L'Astrance is quite Totalitarian when you think about it.

[Bux]

So as not to be completely off-topic, dining at L'Astrance is quite Totalitarian when you think about it.

I suppose it depends a lot on how one approaches a restaurant in the first place. I happen to love well done tasting menus where I enter the restaurant and make no decsions other than to put myself in the hands of the chef. For me, the ultimate dining luxury is be able to say, I'll have what the boys in the back room are sneding out." It's luxury in two senses. That sort of meal usually costs more and I can't afford to allow myself more than a certain amount of luxury. It's also a luxury to find a restaurant, or a chef, one is willing to trust implicity. "Totalitarian" is a word that makes me thing of living with what I don't want and as restaurants are easier to avoid than governments, it seems a stretch.

I seem to rcall a few posts in which you criticized the tasting menu and it's many little courses. Am I correct and does this figure into the definition of totalitarian? Is there any reason you'd consider l'Astrance any more or less totalitarian than El Bulli, where the last time I dined, there was no option except the tasting menu. Would it be any different from any restaurant that featured a tasting menu? Is a restaurant that would make a tuna fish sandwhich or hamburger for a powerful (media, society, political, etc.) diner less totalitarian than one that would refuse? Can we grade restaurants as more or less totalitarian by how they handle requests for "sauce on the side?"

There's an unanswered charge that l'Astrance not only discriminates against Americans, but actually cancels their reservations at the last minute. I have almost no evidence to the contrary, if one because the contrary is hard to prove, but we have only circumstantial evidence to support the claim so far.