Corkage fees

[Brad Ballinger]

A lengthy discussion on BYO, including corkage in this thread. And this one.

[tjaehnigen]

I'll pay up to $20, maybe $25 per bottle. So, since DC is the only local allowable place for me to do this, that is where I dine most often.

[Rebel Rose]

Bad joke/urban legend alert:

A table of diners perused the restaurant wine list at length, and everyone chose a glass or bottle of wine except for one diner, who continued to read the entire list while the sommelier hovered. Finally, he laid the list down and said with absolute certainty, "Yes, I'll have a bottle of the cork-ahshe, please, because it's only $9!

[MaxH]

Corkage fees have been a hot topic around US fine-dining restaurants and customers for decades. (Since before this site, before Ch*wh*und, before Squires, before newsgroups; before the first paper publications of the Wine Sp*ctat*r or the Wine Adv*c*te or the other US consumer wine publications that preceded them.)

In the SF area in recent years, some high-end restaurants raised corkage fees or initiated bottle limits such as two bottles. The latter has caused conflicts with collectors who sought to bring in a group of unique historic wines for a potentially historic dinner, and the policy was enforced rigidly. That however is not an everyday problem. More common with corkage lately in my opinion has been the issue, cited by Mark Sommelier on this site, of abuse by diners who want to interpret "corkage" at their convenience, without regard for etiquette of the situation, or common sense. Bringing in moderately-priced bottles that duplicate the list, so as to save a couple dollars; or griping on Internet forums about restaurant markups, whatever these happen to be, judged with the glorious lucidity of whim.

Corkage is occasionally even an opportunity for a restaurant to make a statement. A menu I have on file from a spirited, inventive bistro in silicon valley a couple of years ago states an unusual house policy:

Corkage fee: Silver Oak $500, everything else $17

[Mark Sommelier]

MaxH wrote:

"Corkage is occasionally even an opportunity for a restaurant to make a statement. A menu I have on file from a spirited, inventive bistro in silicon valley a couple of years ago states an unusual house policy:

Corkage fee: Silver Oak $500, everything else $17"

That's pretty funny, actually.

[MaxH]

That's pretty funny, actually.

You are not the only one who thought so! (But I would not want to try to explain it to an innocent query like the recent one here about Merlot in the movie Sideways.)

Silicon valley by the way sees a lot of business dining, which includes a certain amount of wine-upmanship. (I could tell some stories ...)

[rockdoggydog]

So far as Seattle is concered, most restaurants in the area are quite accepting of people bringing their own wine. Corkage here ranges from $5 to $45, with most in the $15 to $20 range. Personally, the reasonable range ends at $25 and there had better be some good stemware involved Some restaurants here have a two bottle limit though many that do will waive that if you either purchase a bottle from their list or call ahead to explain that it is a special occaision. Most will also ask that you not duplicate wines on their list or have a higher corkage for those wines. For myself I will bring a bottle or two every now and then of something special but never on my first trip to a restaurant and I always make sure to offer a glass to the sommelier or waiter. I also never will bring a bottle that is on their list, just a matter courtesy I feel.

Rocky

[winesonoma]

If I get charged corkage in Sonoma, I don't eat there any more. I might bring a special bottle once in a while, but the last time I was charged (by the owner telling the waitress) I had free wine for 2 months from the staff. I eat at your place all the time and I can't bring a bottle once in a while, Duh. But that's only in town. I expect to be charged a reasonable price elsewhere but $25, give me a break, Especially if I order one of your overpriced bottles also. I do have my own glasses and I carry a corkscrew, if needed.

[rockdoggydog]

Must be nice in Sonoma. As far as the $25 goes, I'm only willing to pay that in a really nice restaurant where things being relative it's not so expensive. I agree that at that point though it is getting a little out of hand, my own personal comfort zone normally ends at $15.

Rocky

[Capaneus]

... or griping on Internet forums about restaurant markups, whatever these happen to be, judged with the glorious lucidity of whim.

←

As someone whose whim is more limpid than lucid, I fail to comprehend. Would you terribly mind explaining why this is objectionable?

[MaxH]

... or griping on Internet forums about restaurant markups, whatever these happen to be, judged with the glorious lucidity of whim.

As someone whose whim is more limpid than lucid, I fail to comprehend. Would you terribly mind explaining why this is objectionable?

Think about argument referring to a shared reality. (For instance, restaurant X charges much higher markup than its peers.) These arguments take work, they make us adapt our notions to realities, etc. Complicated, abstract.

Argument from a purely internal reality, on the other hand, can be uncomplicated, sincere: (Five-year-old: "It's not FAIR !")

A type of confident Frenchman, for example, is sometimes observed by outsiders (Peter Mayle; the food-related writing of Wechsberg or Bemelmans or Liebling; even Tintin I think). Mounting an argument that makes sense solely to himself, then adding "C'est logique!" (With a decisive nod.) Or the person who reaches your phone number by mistake, and blames you for it. Or a pedestrian I saw a few months ago (by chance also French, though it could have been anywhere) stride carelessly into the Boulevard St.-Michel, escape injury as an alert driver braked to a halt, curse out the driver who'd just saved his life, and speculate on the profession of the female passenger. No lack of clarity about it, to him.

(Glorious lucidity of whim!)

A cousin of the "marvellous lucidity" in Marcel Rouff (below). That was the phrase I first thought of, for the previous posting. (If the source is hackneyed -- I myself have been using it online since early 90s -- I'll argue also that it's good. C'est logique!)

"... Châteauneuf-du-Pape which blew into the soul like a good ocean wind into a sail, all the sunshine it had stolen, all the fervour of that baked earth of the Rhône Valley, its spiritual mother-country, and which, in waves of enlaced tannin and raspberry, brought to the brain a marvellous lucidity."

-- Marcel Rouff, The Passionate Epicure; La Vie et la Passion de Dodin-Bouffant, Gourmet. Delamain, Poutelleau et Cie., 1925. English translation by Claude [sic]. E. P. Dutton, 1962. US LCC number 62-7803.

[Capaneus]

Argument from a purely internal reality.... uncomplicated, sincere:  (Five-year-old: "It's not FAIR !")

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

I take it then that you don't hold it possible for there to be an objective-reality-based, rational argument against the wine-markup system as it now exists in the hospitality industry?

[MaxH]

I take it then that you don't hold it possible for there to be an objective-reality-based, rational argument against the wine-markup system as it now exists in the hospitality industry?

That wasn't my drift at all, I've no such prejudice. I'd be interested to see such arguments. (I gave an ad-hoc example of an argument from external basis, for an individual restaurant "X," in my previous posting, and I've seen real examples of those.)

I was only saying in this context that there's plenty of grousing online (in general, not specifically here) with evident support of the armchair. Theorem: Given any mark-up, Internet readers can be found who will complain.

(Corollary to the old principle that given any California wine at all, a county fair can be found that will award it a medal!)

[Capaneus]

I take it then that you don't hold it possible for there to be an objective-reality-based, rational argument against the wine-markup system as it now exists in the hospitality industry?

That wasn't my drift at all, I've no such prejudice. I'd be interested to see such arguments. (I gave an ad-hoc example of an argument from external basis, for an individual restaurant "X," in my previous posting, and I've seen real examples of those.)

I was only saying in this context that there's plenty of grousing online (in general, not specifically here) with evident support of the armchair. Theorem: Given any mark-up, Internet readers can be found who will complain.

(Corollary to the old principle that given any California wine at all, a county fair can be found that will award it a medal!)

←

Cool. Happens to be one of my pet peeves - on the other side of the fence, I take it - and I'd like to believe I can make a rational argument (on occasion, and assuming it does not involve my home country's football team). Still, this is, unfortunately, probably not the thread for it. Close, but not quite.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Mark Sommelier]

One thing I always like to add to the markup discussion is that the restuarateur is merely the 4th or 5th guy in the line to markup the wine, yet no one grouses about the importer, supplier or distributor the same way. Why is that?

[DonRocks]

One thing I always like to add to the markup discussion is that the restuarateur is merely the 4th or 5th guy in the line to markup the wine, yet no one grouses about the importer, supplier or distributor the same way. Why is that?

←

Because the consumer can get the exact same wine in a retail store for half the price that it is in most restaurants, and this is after factoring in the markups from the importer, supplier and distributor.

Lots of people in-the-know grouse about markups by importers, suppliers and distributors, but since the average consumer's entry point to purchase wines is at the retail level, he won't be familiar with the interim markups taken by middlemen, and so he doesn't view them as evil profiteers.

Cheers,

Rocks.

[Miguelito]

One thing I always like to add to the markup discussion is that the restuarateur is merely the 4th or 5th guy in the line to markup the wine, yet no one grouses about the importer, supplier or distributor the same way. Why is that?

←

Probably because the consumer has no realistic opportunity to purchase wine directly from the importer, supplier or distributor, but is well versed in the prices he would be paying at a retail shop. I would imagine that the entities who buy from importers, suppliers and distributors (i.e., retailers and restaurateurs) do plenty of grousing about similar issues, e.g. tie-ins and allocations.

I think the sense of resentment -- justifiable from some points of view, less so from others -- arises out of feeling that otherwise-available choices have been constrained in a way that strikes some as artificial. It's kind of like the outrage some feel when paying $5 for a bottle of water at a concert or sporting event -- you know that you could easily buy the same product more cheaply from another seller outside the stadium, but you are not able to access that choice in the venue in which you find yourself.

Of course, it is not illegitimate to view the arguably high prices for wine in restaurants and the arguably high prices of water at event venues as simply one component of the price you pay for the overall experience. But then the drinkers in either place feel like they are subsidizing the non-drinkers.

Not meaning to take any side in this, just meaning to observe that the consumer views restaurant wine price through the lens of his experience, most often, retain wine shop prices.

[chefzadi]

A type of confident Frenchman, for example, is sometimes observed by outsiders (Peter Mayle; the food-related writing of Wechsberg or Bemelmans or Liebling; even Tintin I think).  Mounting an argument that makes sense solely to himself, then adding "C'est logique!"  (With a decisive nod.)  Or the person who reaches your phone number by mistake, and blames you for it.  Or a pedestrian I saw a few months ago (by chance also French, though it could have been anywhere) stride carelessly into the Boulevard St.-Michel, escape injury as an alert driver braked to a halt, curse out the driver who'd just saved his life, and speculate on the profession of the female passenger.  No lack of clarity about it, to him.

I'm so confident that I do a decisive shrug. French logic, this exists?

I'll get back on topic with my next post.

[MaxH]

Happens to be one of my pet peeves ...

In my case, as a wine consumer, the sensitivity comes from reading public Internet wine forums for a while (20+ years) and seeing the grousing come up so steadily. At the same time, I've seen how separate are the realities of a restaurant's view of wines from those of consumers. I've seen restaurants whose wine dept. is the main profit center, others where it's a loss and a courtesy to the customers (and the two may use identical mark-ups). Some restaurants do brisk wine sales for business dinners selling carefully chosen "power" brands, that will convey sophistication (but not too much: they wouldn't want a label that the clients haven't heard of, naturally); others lead their customers with eclectic lists of value wines few have seen, but many enjoy once tried.

I've also known restaurant customers who obsess about things like separating out the parts of the bill, to avoid leaving half a dollar too much tip. (A friend used to argue, when we were in college, that a large group with one server should leave the same total tip as a small group, because it takes no more more work to serve more people at the same table. This friend was not speaking from experience, of course.)

-- Max

[MaxH]

... curse out the driver who'd just saved his life, and speculate on the profession of the female passenger.

I should have added (to complete the story) that the driver and passenger immediately returned the compliments, with imagination -- this was Paris, after all -- and spectators nodded their approval.

[chefzadi]

I've never openly offered BYO. Regular customers have occassionally asked, very politely and diplomatically for special occassions. In these cases I didn't charge a corkage fee unless they got on my nerves . I can't recall a customer who ever abused "special" privileges. At the fine dining level it's not like customers will pull a stunt like asking for a free water cup at In N Out and then filling it with cola.

[Mark Sommelier]

I've never openly offered BYO. Regular customers have occassionally asked, very politely and diplomatically for special occassions. In these cases I didn't charge a corkage fee unless they got on my nerves  . I can't recall a customer who ever abused "special" privileges. At the fine dining level it's not like customers will pull a stunt like asking for a free water cup at In N Out and then filling it with cola.

←

Chefzadi,

The restaurant I work in does not offer corkage. I can recall many customers abusing this when we used to do it. 8 guys at a table on Saturday night bring 10 bottles of wine and want fresh glassware and my full attention. To the line they always give "We always share the wine with the sommelier" I answer "A sip is not a tip". In the "olden" days, you brought a bottle you bought a bottle of equal value.

Just to make clear the details about markup: the wine is bought at the source from the broker or importer for $2, he sells it to the national supplier for $4, he sells it to the local distributor for $8, the distributor sells it to the restaurateur for $15, the restaurateur sells it for $40. Europe does not have this kind of multi-tier system for distibution of wine and liquor.

I have been in many arguments about retail price versus restaurant price. Most wine stores have 4-10 employees. My restuarant has 85. Liquor stores do not have to buy 400 dozen glasses a year. I do. Liquor stores do not have to pay a dishwasher $11 an hour, I do. Everyone, including me, hates egregious markups. Feel free to google the winelist at ADNY in Manhattan for a great example ($500 for Dom Perignon ($105 cost), $1000 for Krug Clos le Mesnil ($220 cost), $105 for Chateau Montelena chardonnay($23 cost)). Its all about context.

[chefzadi]

Mark-

I know there are many customers who would abuse it if it's an open policy. Which is why I reserved it for special customers who asked. Customers who abuse the policy are basically telling the restaurant that they don't want to comeback. Restaurants are not in the business of making money off of cheap one night stands. And yes, I have many ways of subtley and diplomatically informing such customers that their behaviour is unwelcome. "Freebies" and "perks" are at the discretion of the house, not something for the customer to "take".

So I think a strong argument has been made for restaurants not to openly offer BYO.

[Capaneus]

Mark-

I know there are many customers who would abuse it if it's an open policy. Which is why I reserved it for special customers who asked. Customers who abuse the policy are basically telling the restaurant that they don't want to comeback. Restaurants are not in the business of making money off of cheap one night stands. And yes, I have many ways of subtley and diplomatically informing such customers that their behaviour is unwelcome. "Freebies" and "perks" are at the discretion of the house, not something for the customer to "take".

So I think a strong argument has been made for restaurants not to openly offer BYO.

←

During the Bad Old post-9/11 days of 2002, a number of Manhattan restaurants offered promotions like"BYO Mondays". According to the Times, not only was the practice successful enough to get the credit for keeping a couple of them afloat, many of the managers reported the goodwill generated tended to carry over to other nights of the week, and even past the slowdown. The general drift was that they were *very* good for business. I believe a number of such nights still exist.

Those of us who care enough about wine and food to build a cellar tend to be people who spend on dining out, well above the average. I know I do. I also happen to live in a city (Philadelphia) where many places do not carry liquor licenses, so I get to enjoy great food *and* great wine. Which I could never, ever, afford to do if I had to pay standard industry markups for the wine.

I'd also like to point out the BYOs in town are generally thriving, whereas the licenced establishments are a much more mixed bag.

All of which addresses only the argument from self-interest. There are others.

[chefzadi]

BYO has been a non-issue for me, from the point of view of an industry professional that is, not a diner. Aside from drastic measures taken in times of catastrophe (the post 9-11 example) I find it hard to believe that it is really a good marketing scheme. If a restaurant is using BYO as a selling point, well then there is lack of confidence in the other aspects of what makes a restaurant great. For customers who really care about food, wine and dining out... I suggest that developing a relationship with a restaurant, the chef and sommelier is a way to achieve maximum enjoymet.

As I mentioned BYO is okay with me under special circumstances for special customers. I have never offered it, have only said yes to it, sometimes with a corkage fee, sometimes not. And if a special, regular customer were ever to abuse it, I would have no problem telling them at the end of a meal, that our "new policy" with a "new corkage" fee will be implemented the next time.

Offering it in the open is something I see as a potential hornet's nest. There are so many other things I can do to bring in repeat business. Not worth the potential headache.