Sushi Yasuda vs. Kuruma Zushi

[JWangSDC]

There's an "if" in my post. I am not conceding that it was worth $1,000—I don't think it was. I'm just saying that if it was, the reasons are beyond my ability to perceive, bearing in mind that I don't have many data points to compare it to. For the most part, I trust my instincts. Rather than say the restaurant is fleecing its customers, I'm leaving open the door that maybe—maybe—there's something in it that I'm not seeing.

Bottles of wine are a similar story. There are plenty of places in town that sell $1,000 wine bottles. I can't really explain the allure that makes a not-that-old bottle of wine worth $1,000 or more, but enough smart people buy them that I can accept there's something going on there that's beyond my appreciation.

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This is a perfectly reasonable attitude, and for all I know I too was missing something during my meal at Kuruma. But I deliberately waited to go to Kuruma until after we got back from Japan and had eaten at what are regarded as the best places in Tokyo, so I'd have something of a benchmark. All I can say is that, for me, the greatness of the greatest sushi meals I've had has not been all that subtle. On the contrary, they kind of hit you over the head with their greatness -- the freshness, purity of flavor, perfect balance of components is pretty obvious.

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+1. Kuruma's toro is ridiculous and yasuda's toro sucks. But Yasuda as a sushi restaurant is much better.

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And these are things that are very self evident. When I eat at Yasuda I think, "Wow, how come all the pieces taste almost the same. Oh, maybe it's because Yasuda slices them so thin and serves them at their perfect temperature with wonderful rice". At kuruma I think "wow, i don't think I've had a more generous slab of ridiculously fat toro anywhere else".

[ulterior epicure]

+1. Kuruma's toro is ridiculous and yasuda's toro sucks. But Yasuda as a sushi restaurant is much better.

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I have never had Kuruma's toro, but I can't imagine it being so good that Yasuda's "sucks" by comparison.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm hesitant to say that anything at Yasuda "sucks." I have had Yasuda's toro and I found it perfectly respectable.

[Sneakeater]

NOTE TO EATER:

NOBODY SAID YASUDA IS PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE. IN FACT, MOST AGREE THAT YASUDA'S A GREAT DEAL.

[raji]

Yeah, c'mon Ben, you guys are so ADD sometimes. Reading comprehension! Also, why are you propagating Todd36's horrible spelling errors?

The Tora/Tuna debate... Kuruma's ultimate strength is that they have an exclusive source for tuna (including the belly). Their tuna will be the best in town, as well it should be for that kind of coin. Kuruma is also a holdover from the bubble economy. Remember when the land area comprising the emperor's palace in Tokyo was worth more than the entire state of California? When Japanese investors bought Rockefeller Center? Kuruma-zushi will make you nostalgic for that era, in all the wrong ways, right in the middle of a Bush economy; juxtaposition if you ask me.

So, tuna for tuna, Kuruma is better than Yasuda, economic factors aside. However, Yasuda excels at accommodating regulars, Japanese, Americans and Europeans alike, and this is a key to their popularity. The difference between sitting in front of Yasuda-san and the 5th sushi chef down the line isn't all that great, nor the price, yet the quality is consistently high. I credit their ownership for this.

As for being worth it - dagordon chose to go to Kuruma only after he'd sample the best of Tokyo. This is a worthy endeavour, but if you truly want to emulate the other customers at a place like Kuruma-zushi, you honestly have to be living in Japan if not for a little while.

After I'm back in that land for a week or two, my palette zooms in, focuses and expands. Because the Japanese flavor palette pulls the envelope back in, as it were, I don't really venture into the more delicate areas of it until I've been back for a bit. The same way that you can spend a few weeks in Thailand and suddenly you're eating the chilies out of your Laarb, the opposite will happen in Japan to you - if you eat like the natives.

While the sign of a true sushi conneissuer [sp??] is the expansion of the palette over the course of one meal - white fish, to shell fish, to pink and red fish, to fatty fish, to cooked fish,... your tongue WILL truly adjust to a week of Japanese immersion. Try a soda out of a vending machine over there, for chrissakes.

[ulterior epicure]

After I'm back in that land for a week or two, my palette zooms in, focuses and expands. Because the Japanese flavor palette pulls the envelope back in, as it were, I don't really venture into the more delicate areas of it until I've been back for a bit. The same way that you can spend a few weeks in Thailand and suddenly you're eating the chilies out of your Laarb, the opposite will happen in Japan to you - if you eat like the natives.

I wish my palate could experience a palette of Japanese flavors too!

[raji]

After I'm back in that land for a week or two, my palette zooms in, focuses and expands. Because the Japanese flavor palette pulls the envelope back in, as it were, I don't really venture into the more delicate areas of it until I've been back for a bit. The same way that you can spend a few weeks in Thailand and suddenly you're eating the chilies out of your Laarb, the opposite will happen in Japan to you - if you eat like the natives.

I wish my palate could experience a palette of Japanese flavors too!

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Suck it, U.E.!

Cross-reference my post times, if I'm posting during the 8th inning of a close Mets game, I'm lucky I'm not drunkposting like a certain member let alone distinguishing between palate and palette

[docsconz]

After I'm back in that land for a week or two, my palette zooms in, focuses and expands. Because the Japanese flavor palette pulls the envelope back in, as it were, I don't really venture into the more delicate areas of it until I've been back for a bit. The same way that you can spend a few weeks in Thailand and suddenly you're eating the chilies out of your Laarb, the opposite will happen in Japan to you - if you eat like the natives.

I wish my palate could experience a palette of Japanese flavors too!

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Suck it, U.E.!

Cross-reference my post times, if I'm posting during the 8th inning of a close Mets game, I'm lucky I'm not drunkposting like a certain member let alone distinguishing between palate and palette

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I'm not sure that the word "palette" is actually inappropriate here.

[oakapple]

Yeah, c'mon Ben, you guys are so ADD sometimes. Reading comprehension! Also, why are you propagating Todd36's horrible spelling errors?

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It's not Ben anymore.

[JWangSDC]

+1. Kuruma's toro is ridiculous and yasuda's toro sucks. But Yasuda as a sushi restaurant is much better.

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I have never had Kuruma's toro, but I can't imagine it being so good that Yasuda's "sucks" by comparison.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm hesitant to say that anything at Yasuda "sucks." I have had Yasuda's toro and I found it perfectly respectable.

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Hmm, I apologize, what I said was disrespectful to Yasuda. I just meant, I prefer hatsuhana, sushi of gari, 15 east, kuruma, and ushi wakamaru's toro to Yasuda. There is a reason for this. Of all sushi restaurants Yasuda serves the least fish per riceball. This is especially annoying with toro and uni pieces and your mouth cannot fully enjoy the flavor. Yasuda serves his sushi almost like the fish is a sauce on top of the rice. Pieces like toro should be served much differently imo. It suffers greatly from not having a large piece melt in your mouth. By contrast, pieces like engawa are best suited for yasuda's style of slicing them.

But beyond that, Kuruma's toro is also a cut above in quality. Combine the thickness and size of the piece and slightly better quality and that's why I said yasuda's "sucks". I prob shouldn't have used such a harsh word though.

[MoneyMoy]

The Tora/Tuna debate... Kuruma's ultimate strength is that they have an exclusive source for tuna (including the belly). Their tuna will be the best in town,

Anybody have the details on this exclusive source? Which supplier is bringing in this tuna for Kuruma and not selling to anyone else? Nobu Ishida is the supplier for Yasuda (and he sells to Masa as well) and it's pretty hard to believe that anyone else in the tri-state area gets better fish than Ishida-san whether it's tuna or anything else. Even harder to believe that a company bringing in tuna of that quality would not sell it to anyone else. But if it is true, then yes, that would explain the price difference.

[raji]

Anybody have the details on this exclusive source?  Which supplier is bringing in this tuna for Kuruma and not selling to anyone else?  Nobu Ishida is the supplier for Yasuda (and he sells to Masa as well) and it's pretty hard to believe that anyone else in the tri-state area gets better fish than Ishida-san whether it's tuna or anything else.  Even harder to believe that a company bringing in tuna of that quality would not sell it to anyone else.  But if it is true, then yes, that would explain the price difference.

Well if anyone had the details, it wouldn't be exclusive, would it...

Yasuda works with various suppliers. Also, lots of sushiya have fish flown from Japan. So I'm sure Kuruma's tuna is from his source in Japan, secret or exclusive or not....

[MoneyMoy]

Anybody have the details on this exclusive source?  Which supplier is bringing in this tuna for Kuruma and not selling to anyone else?  Nobu Ishida is the supplier for Yasuda (and he sells to Masa as well) and it's pretty hard to believe that anyone else in the tri-state area gets better fish than Ishida-san whether it's tuna or anything else.  Even harder to believe that a company bringing in tuna of that quality would not sell it to anyone else.  But if it is true, then yes, that would explain the price difference.

Well if anyone had the details, it wouldn't be exclusive, would it...

Yasuda works with various suppliers. Also, lots of sushiya have fish flown from Japan. So I'm sure Kuruma's tuna is from his source in Japan, secret or exclusive or not....

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If anyone here is eating at Kuruma anytime soon, if you could ask where the tuna came from (geographically) it would be interesting to find out, as I didn't think the best bluefin was coming from Japanese waters. The best stuff seems to be coming from Spain as of late. I know there had been efforts to farm bluefin in Japan so an exclusive Japanese fishery could be the explanation, but then again, it's not very likely a place like Kuruma would opt for farmed over wild when it comes to bluefin for toro.

[Fat Guy]

For what it's worth, I think Yasuda's tuna is awesome. One of my favorite gastronomic experiences in the city is to start a meal at Yasuda by sampling the full range of his tuna and yellowtail offerings as sashimi. He usually has 6 or 7 gradations of tuna and 4 or so of yellowtail. All have been excellent when I've had them.

[raji]

If anyone here is eating at Kuruma anytime soon, if you could ask where the tuna came from (geographically) it would be interesting to find out, as I didn't think the best bluefin was coming from Japanese waters.  The best stuff seems to be coming from Spain as of late.  I know there had been efforts to farm bluefin in Japan so an exclusive Japanese fishery could be the explanation, but then again, it's not very likely a place like Kuruma would opt for farmed over wild when it comes to bluefin for toro.

I wasn't implying that Kuruma's tuna comes from Japanese waters - but the best bluefin tuna worldwide does end up at the Tsukiji auctions, right? Demand for sushi-grade fish has skyrocketed worldwide, so it has become harder and costlier for Japan to import all the fish they need - but the highest demand and the most exclusive fish will almost always go to Japan. So I could see their otoro, if it's so damn good, coming from the costlier auctioned Tuna from Tsukiji or other markets in Japan, where it's then further subdivided to different distributors, one of whom reserves a shipment's-worth to Kuruma.

This might at least partially justify the cost.

[raji]

For what it's worth, I think Yasuda's tuna is awesome. One of my favorite gastronomic experiences in the city is to start a meal at Yasuda by sampling the full range of his tuna and yellowtail offerings as sashimi. He usually has 6 or 7 gradations of tuna and 4 or so of yellowtail. All have been excellent when I've had them.

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Yasuda serves great otoro. I think most people on here take issue with the quantity, not quality of it.

[ulterior epicure]

For what it's worth, I think Yasuda's tuna is awesome. One of my favorite gastronomic experiences in the city is to start a meal at Yasuda by sampling the full range of his tuna and yellowtail offerings as sashimi. He usually has 6 or 7 gradations of tuna and 4 or so of yellowtail. All have been excellent when I've had them.

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Yasuda serves great otoro. I think most people on here take issue with the quantity, not quality of it.

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Exactly, which is why I took issue with JWangSDC's comment, initially. He has since clarified that point.

[raji]

Exactly, which is why I took issue with JWangSDC's comment, initially. He has since clarified that point.

Otoro is the guilty pleasure a sushi dinner. You can never have enough, and of course it's super-tasty and super-expensive. Think about it, fish don't really have fat on them. Where it does, it's pretty tasty, so how exclusive are those small portions of marbled tuna, kanpache, salmon, etc.

However, if you really want to impress a veteran sushi chef, show them you can distinguish a good white fish (shiromi). Of course they'll know you'll like the toro. Everyone likes the toro!

[JWangSDC]

Exactly, which is why I took issue with JWangSDC's comment, initially. He has since clarified that point.

Otoro is the guilty pleasure a sushi dinner. You can never have enough, and of course it's super-tasty and super-expensive. Think about it, fish don't really have fat on them. Where it does, it's pretty tasty, so how exclusive are those small portions of marbled tuna, kanpache, salmon, etc.

However, if you really want to impress a veteran sushi chef, show them you can distinguish a good white fish (shiromi). Of course they'll know you'll like the toro. Everyone likes the toro!

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So true, so true. For toro, I always like to go to boston and visit Oishi 2. They serve toro, chu toro, and Otoro. It costs $7, $13, and $18 respectively depending on seasonal MP, but it's for two LARGE pieces and the toro is actually the best tasting! I stop by there once every 3 months and order 24 pieces of toro for my girlfriend and myself.

At places like Yasuda, toro rarely comprises more than 10% of my meal.

Edited September 13, 2008 by JWangSDC (log)

[Fat Guy]

I've never been to or heard of Oishi 2 so I have no frame of reference there, but last time I did a tuna tasting at Yasuda he had two subcategories of otoro: shimofuri and dandara. He also had chu-toro. He didn't have anything called just "toro." He also had non-toro tuna from various places on the tuna's body. I believe in all there were seven tuna selections.

[JWangSDC]

I've never been to or heard of Oishi 2 so I have no frame of reference there, but last time I did a tuna tasting at Yasuda he had two subcategories of otoro: shimofuri and dandara. He also had chu-toro. He didn't have anything called just "toro." He also had non-toro tuna from various places on the tuna's body. I believe in all there were seven tuna selections.

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I was only explaining what I like to do for toro. I didn't go into the pieces that Yasuda himself has/serves. If you are talking about just tuna selection, it would be a rare day for Yasuda to serve only 7 selections. He has regular tuna meat, akami type meat, toro from belly, toro from cheek, and toro from the lower back. plus he could have 2-5 different types of tuna, that alone would account for 10 to 50 different types of pieces he's willing to serve.

[JWangSDC]

I've never been to or heard of Oishi 2 so I have no frame of reference there, but last time I did a tuna tasting at Yasuda he had two subcategories of otoro: shimofuri and dandara. He also had chu-toro. He didn't have anything called just "toro." He also had non-toro tuna from various places on the tuna's body. I believe in all there were seven tuna selections.

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I was only explaining what I like to do for toro. I didn't go into the pieces that Yasuda himself has/serves. If you are talking about just tuna selection, it would be a rare day for Yasuda to serve only 7 selections. He has regular tuna meat, akami type meat, toro from belly, toro from cheek, and toro from the lower back. plus he could have 2-5 different types of tuna, that alone would account for 10 to 50 different types of pieces he's willing to serve.

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Here's a picture from my last visit to Yasuda as he explains his tons of different types of toro's.

[Fat Guy]

it would be a rare day for Yasuda to serve only 7 selections

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From the Yasuda website:

"Yasuda is renowned as a tuna specialist—he typically offers seven or eight options for tuna"

http://sushiyasuda.com/restaurant.html

[JWangSDC]

it would be a rare day for Yasuda to serve only 7 selections

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From the Yasuda website:

"Yasuda is renowned as a tuna specialist—he typically offers seven or eight options for tuna"

http://sushiyasuda.com/restaurant.html

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I have never once sat with Yasuda and been offered less than 8 options for tuna. In fact all of the times, he has offered more including cuts which were apparently not on the menu that is updated daily.

[mtgtimewalker]

it would be a rare day for Yasuda to serve only 7 selections

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From the Yasuda website:

"Yasuda is renowned as a tuna specialist—he typically offers seven or eight options for tuna"

http://sushiyasuda.com/restaurant.html

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I have never once sat with Yasuda and been offered less than 8 options for tuna. In fact all of the times, he has offered more including cuts which were apparently not on the menu that is updated daily.

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I once sat in front Yasuda and had a tuna tasting omakase where he served me 15 pieces of sushi each made with a different part of tuna. Definitely one of the most unique sushi experiences I've ever had.