Sushi Yasuda vs. Kuruma Zushi

[Sneakeater]

Having been fairly well stunned by my first visit to Sushi Yasuda (which was also my first visit to a top-rank sushi bar) last week, I felt impelled to try Kuruma Zushi. My ignorance of sushi is such that my remarks may be virtually worthless. But since this is the internet, I'm not going to let that stop me.

Conventional wisdom is, Kuruma for the fish, Yasuda for the rice. Conventional wisdom appears to be right . . . up to a point. Some of the fish at Kuruma seemed to be somewhat better than some of the fish at Yasuda. (The uni is a case in point -- not that uni is a fish AFAIK.) But at this extremely high level of quality, I didn't think the differences were consistent enough, or significant enough, to make that much of a difference. Nevertheless, for sashimi, I'd give Kuruma the edge.

On sushi, though, the scales tip toward Yasuda, IMO. It's not just that "the rice is more important than the fish" (if in fact that's even true). It's that the total sushi preparations -- meaning, each piece of sushi not as a combination of fish, rice, and condiments, but as a gestalt -- seemed to me to be superior at Yasuda. It's hard for me to articulate this (I don't really have the vocabulary), but the sushi at Yasuda seemed to me to attain a level of exquisiteness that was beyond the sushi at Kuruma.

To be sure, this perception may partly be the result of the constant self-promotion engaged in by Mr. Yasuda as he works. (The head sushi chef at Kuruma, whose name I don't remember, is much more circumspect -- which I much prefer.) But I'm convinced it's mainly there in the food.

It is also not insignificant that Yasuda, while hardly a bargain outlet, appears to be much cheaper than Kuruma. It's hard to do a direct comparison, because my dinner guest at Yasuda ate very little owing to dental work undergone earlier in the day, whereas my dinner guest at Kuruma really chowed down (and we ended up drinking a lot more sake at Kuruma as well). But, getting omakase at the bar, I ran up a tab at Kuruma that was nearly twice as high as the tab I ran up at Yasuda ($750 for two, pre-tax-and-tip but including sake, at Kuruma). So Kuruma is probably something like a third more expensive than Yasuda.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

I have to say that my experience of having truly good sushi for the first time was something like my first time, years ago, eating at a really good steak house. (It was only Smith & Wollensky's -- far from the best there is -- but still, it was so much better than all the other steak I'd theretofore had in my life that I couldn't believe it; I had no idea that steak could be that good.) Similarly, the really good sushi bars provide a level of intense enjoyment (it's actually something deeper than enjoyment, but I'm not gonna spend all day trying to think of the right word) that I never came near experiencing from this type of food before.

Edited January 11, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[docsconz]

It is also not insignificant that Yasuda, while hardly a bargain outlet, appears to be much cheaper than Kuruma.  It's hard to do a direct comparison, because my dinner guest at Yasuda ate very little owing to dental work undergone earlier in the day, whereas my dinner guest at Kuruma really chowed down (and we ended up drinking a lot more sake at Kuruma as well).  But, getting omakase at the bar, I ran up a tab at Kuruma that was nearly twice as high as the tab I ran up at Yasuda ($750 for two, pre-tax-and-tip but including sake, at Kuruma).  So Kuruma is probably something like a third more expensive than Yasuda.

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This is my impression as well.

[ulterior epicure]

Similarly, the really good sushi bars provide a level of intense enjoyment (it's actually something deeper than enjoyment, but I'm not gonna spend all day trying to think of the right word) that I never came near experiencing from this type of food before.

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Short of trivializing such experiences (very rare and I've only had a few that I'd consider to be at this level) with trite uninformitive descriptors like "sublime" or "heavenly" - the only word I can think of to describe my best sushi omakase experiences is transcendent.

the ulterior epicure.

[edit: yikes, flashbacks of the dreaded SAT vocab section!!]

Edited February 20, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[jogoode]

It is also not insignificant that Yasuda, while hardly a bargain outlet, appears to be much cheaper than Kuruma.  It's hard to do a direct comparison, because my dinner guest at Yasuda ate very little owing to dental work undergone earlier in the day, whereas my dinner guest at Kuruma really chowed down (and we ended up drinking a lot more sake at Kuruma as well).  But, getting omakase at the bar, I ran up a tab at Kuruma that was nearly twice as high as the tab I ran up at Yasuda ($750 for two, pre-tax-and-tip but including sake, at Kuruma).  So Kuruma is probably something like a third more expensive than Yasuda.

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For anyone reading this thread who's tempted by all this fish and rice talk but not ready to spend so much at either place, I was at Yasuda the other day and had another wonderful Yasuda-guided (but not omakase per se) meal for $60 a person (before tip, no sake).

[ulterior epicure]

For anyone reading this thread who's tempted by all this fish and rice talk but not ready to spend so much at either place, I was at Yasuda the other day and had another wonderful Yasuda-guided (but not omakase per se) meal for $60 a person (before tip, no sake).

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I've have Yasuda's "full" omakase - what did this "demi" experience include/involve?

u.e.

Edited February 20, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Fat Guy]

Yes, I believe our last meal there -- two people, lunch, a ton of food though not the super-luxe stuff, a couple of beers, tax and tip -- was around $160.

[jogoode]

For anyone reading this thread who's tempted by all this fish and rice talk but not ready to spend so much at either place, I was at Yasuda the other day and had another wonderful Yasuda-guided (but not omakase per se) meal for $60 a person (before tip, no sake).

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I've have Yasuda's "full" omakase - what did this "demi" experience include/involve?

u.e.

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I order a few pieces a la carte, then ask Yasuda to recommend a few pieces. And so on. I like this way of eating there because I can make sure to have my favorite pieces, try some different stuff, and control the price.

[jogoode]

Yes, I believe our last meal there -- two people, lunch, a ton of food though not the super-luxe stuff, a couple of beers, tax and tip -- was around $160.

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Nice, but why wasn't I there?

Did you have any non-sushi food? I'm embarrassed to say I've never tried anything other than sushi.

Edited February 20, 2006 by jogoode (log)

[ulterior epicure]

I have been in a very obvious minority in my preference for Kuruma on this site but to me, there is a beauty to that. My Correct me if I'm wrong, but thus far, nearly everyone who's commented (re: omakases especially) have reported about lunch experiences... Can posters clarify if they're having lunches or dinners?

I guess, what I'm not trying to figure out is if there's really any difference between omakases at lunch and dinner... as others have noted, by 20+ course sushi/sashimi-fest at Yasuda (at lunch) worked out to be around $150/person (after tax, before tip, without drinks).

I couldn't possibly imagine eating much more than this without feeling gorged (although I certainly would be motivated to continue out of sheer ecstasy) regardless of it were lunch or dinner... so, would an evening omakase experience differ that much. If so, how? In quantity? Variety? Quality (I hope not)? Different presentations (e.g. perhaps more hot items at night)? Price differential?

I'm just trying to get a gauge on whether or not dinner would really be that more expensive than lunch for the same sort of 20+ course Yasuda personal-service-at-the-bar omakase... I guess I just can't imagine it getting any better than I had it!!

[jogoode]

As far as I know, the price of omakase depends on what and how much you eat, not when you eat. Yet since people seem to eat more and have more time to eat during dinner, the average check for a dinner omakase is probably a bit more. The menu is the same during lunch and dinner, so I don't think time of day affects variety. And I've never seen or heard of anyone eating an omakase meal at SY that includes hot items (unless the grilled-to-order eel is considered a hot item)--it's either a combo a sushi and sashimi or, as I'm pretty sure the chef prefers, just sushi. I've only had a full-on omakase at lunch, but most of my meals at Sushi Yasuda have been dinners.

Edited February 21, 2006 by jogoode (log)

[ulterior epicure]

... my 20+ course sushi/sashimi-fest at Yasuda (at lunch) worked out to be around $150/person (after tax, before tip, without drinks). 

I couldn't possibly imagine eating much more than this without feeling gorged (although I certainly would be motivated to continue out of sheer ecstasy) regardless of it were lunch or dinner... so, would an evening omakase experience differ that much.  If so, how?  In quantity?  Variety?  Quality (I hope not)?  Different presentations (e.g. perhaps more hot items at night)?  Price differential?

I'm just trying to get a gauge on whether or not dinner would really be that more expensive than lunch for the same sort of 20+ course Yasuda personal-service-at-the-bar omakase... I guess I just can't imagine it getting any better than I had it!!

i was only able to secure a spot at the bar with yasuda at lunch. i haven't been in well over a year, but do recent visitors have any clue how much a regular run omakase can cost (range)? i'm taking a couple of friends out and would like to pre-pay... would $100 per person (before tax and tip) be sufficient for a pretty satisfying experience?

u.e.

Edited March 15, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[cchen]

Since there's no separate thread for Kuruma, I'll report on the dinner I just had there here.

5 of us went. We had no set limits. We all had omakase, which consisted of sashimi first, then sushi. 1 person was full after the sashimi and stopped. The rest of us continued with several pieces of sushi after that.

The price is outrageous. It ended up being $1266 for omakase, plus some sake. Total of over $1600.

I can honestly say... this was the best meal of my life. Best fish by far I've had anywhere. I would gladly come again for the omakase. While some have said that Gari, Yasuda, and Kuruma are on the same level.... Gari isn't even close, and Yasuda's fish cannot compare to that of Kuruma Zushi's. However, Yasuda's rice is still infinitely better.

I will post pictures and a more comprehensive review once I have the pictures sorted....

[ulterior epicure]

Yikes! That's awfully steep!! Was that strictly sushi/sashimi or did it include cooked courses? I'll wait for your full write up...

Also wanted to add that I'm back from Yasuda and *glowing.* I'm so thrilled that I decided to go back! My friends and I sat withi Yasuda, and like last time, had about 20+ pieces of sushi each. I out-lasted my companions and doubled back for a couple of my favorites - namely uni. Although I wasn't really presented with anything that unfamiliar, I was pleased as punch to have some of the "regulars" - as they're not just "regular" when cut and served by Yasuda. The fish are fresh, the portions perfect and the seasoning all very thoughtful. I hardly used my soy/wasabi.

An order of ankimo was stellar and a must! I think it's going to have to be a mandatory reservation for me everytime I'm in that neighborhood!

u.e.

Edited April 2, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Sneakeater]

I know this isn't a contest -- and that if it is some kind of contest, I'm on the losing side -- but I managed to spend $750 for two at Karuma (pre-tax-and-tip), so I've got cchen beat by a mile on the awful steepness scale.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[ulterior epicure]

I know this isn't a contest -- and that if it is some kind of contest, I'm on the losing side -- but I managed to spend $750 for two at Karuma (pre-tax-and-tip), so I've got cchen beat by a mile on the awful steepness scale.

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This is obscene!! What were you eating? Gold? Platinum? Were you downing diamond sashimi?

u.e.

[Sneakeater]

Just fish, rice, and sake, pretty much.

[ulterior epicure]

Wow. Was it worth it? For that price, you could comfortably do Masa... have you been?

Have you been to S.Y.? If so, how would you compare the experiences between K and S.Y.?

u.e.

Edited April 2, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Sneakeater]

Haven't been to Masa. My comparison of Karuma Zushi and Sushi Yasuda is upthread (I think on the previous page -- it was posted sometime in January 2006).

[Sneakeater]

FWIW, I don't really find it surprising that a place like Karuma Zushi would be as or more expensive than Masa. In fact, I'd kind of expect that.

[Sneakeater]

And, of course, it goes without saying that it's very possible to eat cheaper at Karuma than I did.

[ulterior epicure]

FWIW, I don't really find it surprising that a place like Karuma Zushi would be as or more expensive than Masa.  In fact, I'd kind of expect that.

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Explanation, please? ...never been.

u.e.

[Sneakeater]

I guess I've always assumed that top-level sushi places were about the most expensive places possible in New York. I think part of that assumption is based on the fact that, to the exent they cater to expatriate Japenese rather than to Americans, they can get away with charging more because of exchange rates and also because of expectations about how much things will cost. (Just like Americans working for American companies in Europe used to be able to live like kings.) (Or, for that matter, just like first-year law associates working at the Boston branch of Skadden Arps were able to live like kings in the early 80s, because that branch paid New York "going rate" salaries even though the Boston market was much less.)

Think of how expensive everything in Japan is reported to be.

Masa, on the other hand, is pitched much more to locals than to the Japanese expatriate crowd.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[ulterior epicure]

I think part of that assumption is based on the fact that, to the exent they cater to expatriate Japenese rather than to Americans, they can get away with charging more because of exchange rates and also because of expectations about how much things will cost....

Masa, on the other hand, is pitched much more to locals than to the Japanese expatriate crowd.

Interesting... hadn't thought of it in this way.

u.e.

[raji]

If I had one last meal, it would be sushi; a good sushi experience can be transcendental and I certainly equate sushi with the pinnacle of culinary experiences; however, it's almost in another class because it is so very dependent on the raw quality of the ingredients vs. fancy procedures and fusions of different regional cuisines.

That said, it's simple supply and demand that there's only so much sushi-grade fish out there and the higher and higher the grade or rarer the catch, the less of it there is. Japan's an island nation and per capita just consumes tons more fish. You can go to $1 per plate (100yen for 2 pieces) conveyor belt places in Japan that are better than the vast majority of sushi in America - it's sad but true. Conversely, you can go to Ginza and spend more than Kurumazushi - which I'm starting to think is named "kuruma", which means car, because you can buy a car for the price of a meal there. I'm lucky because I lived in Japan, speak the language fairly well with very accurate pronunciation, and have friends I can crash with, so if I'm looking at $300 to dine at Kurumazushi, that's going towards a ticket overseas...

I guess I've always assumed that top-level sushi places were about the most expensive places possible in New York.  I think part of that assumption is based on the fact that, to the exent they cater to expatriate Japenese rather than to Americans, they can get away with charging more because of exchange rates and also because of expectations about how much things will cost.  (Just like Americans working for American companies in Europe used to be able to live like kings.)  (Or, for that matter, just like first-year law associates working at the Boston branch of Skadden Arps were able to live like kings in the early 80s, because that branch paid New York "going rate" salaries even though the Boston market was much less.)

Think of how expensive everything in Japan is reported to be.

Masa, on the other hand, is pitched much more to locals than to the Japanese expatriate crowd.

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There are plenty of expense-account Japanese restaurants in Midtown, as there are so many Japanese companies with presences in NYC, just as there are so many non-japanese expense-account places in Midtown. But I still think you get what you pay for, it's not just an automatic markup. And the Japanese economy bubble burst in '91 and never revived, so it's not crazy like the 80s, although some of those restaurants survived. Exchange rate is no benefit either. If anything, consider that Japan is not so much an "ownership society" like here so people tend to spend more of their income outside the home, and for the traditional Japanese companies, the business entertainment allotment has not been cut back the way it has in the states, so they have to go out and spend spend spend or they don't get the same budget the next year....

Back to Kuruma, the owner notoriously prides himself for having the best bluefin tuna in NY if not North America, and similarly prides himself on the other fish he has, so you are paying for that top top quality - you be the judge - was it 200% than the same thing at Yasuda? You certainly aren't paying for the decor at sushi bars, or at least you shouldn't be - Yasuda is one of the nicest and airiest I've seen, and I've paid those prices for places in Tokyo that look like holes-in-the-wall, albeit spotless. Space is such a premium in Japan. Also, if you are there for the first time, you are definitely going to pay more than regulars.

Edited April 2, 2006 by raji (log)