Scarcity Factor

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - So true. If I can get the meal I want, I'm happy. And if others are getting a better meal, I'm not envious. I want to know how to get it. I'm always surprised when people choose the pettiness of acting like they were snubbed to simply asking how to improve things.

Steven Shaw - I can see Collichio doing that. He is into his craft (no pun intended.) And the difference between a place like Gramercy and Le Cirque, is that in Gramercy they assume you know what you're talking about. At Le Cirque, you have to prove yourself.

Steve Klc (too many Steve's) - There's a reason that Le Cirque doesn't have to strive for that type of acclaim anymore. Their business is based on socialites. The food that socialites eat has been codified by guys like Sirio, Soltner, etc. and they just serve the stuff without a lot of variation.

In their defense, I recently attended a private wine dinner in a banquet room on the second floor. There were 17 people and we were allowed to bring our own wine. We had a preset menu that our host organized and I have to say the food was delicious. Not daring but correct, the portions were copious portions and everything about the night was top notch. Good enough to be a 2 star anywhere in France.

[Liza]

Fascinating thread. I think I might be one of those people who you offer to help. I cook often and extensively at home, love to dine out. My husband and I seem to ALWAYS get the worst table and the worst service whereever we go (except, of course, if I know the chef). We're in our 30s but maybe (!) look younger - could that be it? I thought we followed the protocal correctly - we make reservations in advance, always confirm. We dress appropriately and yet when we present ourselves, we inevitably get a once-over from the captain or hostess, and escorted away. The look is one which says, "They won't be spending any money." We don't ask stupid questions; we order creatively, and yet this persists. Could it be an age thing? Or must I add that we're not ogres?

[Fat Guy]

Liza: Where has this happened to you. Or, could you at least list the four or five worst offenders? I wonder if you're just eating at the wrong places!

[Bux]

Liza, Shaw took the words out of my mouth. Not all places have staff so attuned to the food. Some restaurants are about snobbism. Some restaurants have too large a turnover in staff to have the rapport between kitchen and dining room required. Danny Meyer trains his waiters better than anyone, but they're all not Gramercy Tavern.

Looking younger could certainly be a factor. I know some young professionals who seem to know most of the food world directly or indirectly, but when they wander into unknown territory, they can report some terrible service. On the whole, it comes from places where they didin't like the food either. In your case it seems that you like the restaurants enough to want better service or attention. Of course someone has to get the worst table if there is one. Are you among the youngest and a first time diner?

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from Steve Klc on 12:07 pm on Dec. 22, 2001

It takes more than pedestrian cooking to stay relevant today, even in a theatrically-designed space--especially in NYC where there are such high restaurant standards.

Hmm, interesting to read the comments posted about Le Cirque.  The point I didn't really make on this thread, although I made it elsewhere on the New York forum, is that -almost to my suprise - I have found the cooking at Le Cirque to be way better than pedestrian.  I won't repeat my description of my last meal there, but will say again that it was one of the best meals I have had in New York in many months.  This may go against the grain of majority opinions here (who cares?), but the meal was certainly better than the (good) meals I have had recently at Cafe Boulud, Bid, Union Pacific and Blue Hill, and streets ahead of a disastrous meal at the refurbished JoJo.  It was also not the most expensive meal on this list.

Another point I made on that other thread, was that one of the reasons I went to Le Cirque was that they were offering dishes outside the admittedly formulaic range of the typical 'menu for socialites' - tripe, blanquette de veau and so on.  

I wonder if I get a different perspective on this because I'm English - maybe I have different assumptions or maybe I'm just thick-skinned.  But I can't see how you have to 'prove' yourself in order to get good service at Le Cirque.  The interaction with the waitstaff at the beginning of the meal is surely pretty straightforward.  I order my tap water, like I always do, and then speak my food order, clearly, precisely and decisively.  Maybe other people don't do that.  I hardly feel I'm doing anything that merits good service, but perhaps there are other customers dithering, mumbling and dropping the menus.

,

[Liza]

Without revealing too much, we are often sent to restaurants in a quality assurance capacity, so these are restaurants that are trying to have standards of hospitality. The review starts with the reservation (how many rings before the call was picked up? were you thanked for your reservation) and ends at the departure (were you thanked by a captain or hostess?). So I'd rather not reveal the names of the places, but they're all in NYC.

[Fat Guy]

Liza, as a veteran of "mystery shopper" restaurant visits, I can say that with just a couple of exceptions all of the restaurants that use such services are solidly middle market. This makes the situation even more puzzling, because such places don't typically cater to an older, richer audience (I assure you La Caravelle and Le Cirque don't employ Q/A auditors). I'm stumped.

[Bux]

Liza, I've always wondered about these programs. In particular, I've wondered about what sort of restaurants use them. I understand your inability to share their names, or even anything that would lead me to guess names. I may be way off base in my assumptions and in any event hardly able to offer much help out of ignorance. Nevertheless, it's been my assumption that the restaurants in question are exactly the sort that have a high turnover in staff and don't have the capacity to react properly to individual diners. Along those lines I assume that many of them are corporately owned or have off premises owner/management. I may be way off base. All I have is my prejudices and a look some time ago at the application form for one of these programs. I wish I could learn more without your having to reveal more than you can. There's a sort of impasse here, but at least you can report dissatisfaction to the company. The problem about the worst seat in the house is that a great restaurant shouldn't have one. In many cases it's personal. I'm often surprised to learn which table is the honored table. Generally it's not the one I'd pick first.

[Fat Guy]

Corporate ownership is a big factor -- mystery shopper audits are very much a product of professional, B-school-trained management. Hotels use these services all the time, and to the extent a restaurant is in a hotel it will be audited a few times a year. You'd be surprised, though. A couple of the very best restaurants in town use these services as a backup. Just a couple, though. Some small, family-owned places do it too. There are a few different auditors, and at least one of them is tuned in to the boutique/sole-proprietorship market. Mostly, however, it's the corporate, hotel, chain, and theme-type places that do this.

[861728]

Quote: from Liza on 12:32 pm on Dec. 24, 2001

Without revealing too much, we are often sent to restaurants in a quality assurance capacity, so these are restaurants that are trying to have standards of hospitality. The review starts with the reservation (how many rings before the call was picked up? were you thanked for your reservation) and ends at the departure (were you thanked by a captain or hostess?). So I'd rather not reveal the names of the places, but they're all in NYC.

You've revealed enough. IF you are a shopper we can sense/intuit from the word go and it sets up an unspoken adversarial relationship. Your less than stellar service is because of your role as a shopper.

Restaurants that use shoppers don't know squat about hospitality or customer care. I know that's a harsh line to take but as a vetran server I give myself some latitude.

And as a veteran Catholic I wish everyone the best of the best of the season!!

[Katherine]

I know Applebee's uses these services. I've read servers complaining that they have mystery diners to serve, and if they don't push appetizers and drinks on them, they get reprimanded...

[Fat Guy]

Usually, when I visit a restaurant, somebody figures out right away that there's something wrong with me. I'm not sure what they make of me, whether they think I'm a critic, or a shopper, or just a potentially difficult customer (I'm usually one of the three), but I'm usually treated to one extreme of service or another. The only way around it is for me to be one of the guests, and to sit very quietly. Once I open my mouth everybody knows I'm an abnormal customer.

[861728]

Quote: from Katherine on 2:52 pm on Dec. 24, 2001

I know Applebee's uses these services. I've read servers complaining that they have mystery diners to serve, and if they don't push appetizers and drinks on them, they get reprimanded...

Yes, you see, there's the rub. It's not about service.

Service is not a rubber stamp. If you were to get all of my regular clients together they would each describe me differently. Every owner and manager is after the holy grail of consistency but the only thing that is constant is being present in the moment. And if that moment has me decanting a bottle of white zin then that's the moment and that's good service for that guest.

[Liza]

Let me assure you these are not Applebees-type establishments that I'm talking about. One, in fact, is a bold-faced Zagat high scorer - though we've always been treated very well there. And yes, we do boutique hotels, too. Katherine's point is true, though, that up-selling is a basic point of the process. BUT let me also add that we do dine on our own and find we're still treated indifferently at some of the finer establishments in the city. What I'm hoping to learn from this thread, is how, to establish a better relationship with our server. We don't have the luxury of being frequent diners, but we are always interested ones. And we are willing to spend money when we do dine out, yet find it difficult perhaps to convey that to our server. Is there a secret handshake?

[robert brown]

There is; with money in it. I thought I was being facitious, but does anyone remember the smoothy maitre d'hotel at El Parador on E. 34th St? Somehow he had mastered the ability to get pieced off from everyone as they came into the restaurant. It was sort of that you had to pay him to get a table regardless of how easily he could find you a table. At least that's how I remember it.

Otherwise I just try to say thank you at every little thing and make sure I look the servers in the eye. Sometimes, though, I don't care. Like at Cafe Boulod a few nights ago, the waiter told us he would be happy to answer any questions. For whatever reason, I asked him what time it was (although usually I ask something like, "Who was the third President of the United States"?) I believe I lost him for the rest of the evening.

(Edited by robert brown at 12:17 am on Dec. 25, 2001)

[861728]

Quote: from Liza on 9:13 pm on Dec. 24, 2001

Is there a secret handshake?

Yes.

Be genuine in the moment. If you've been fighting a winter cold don't feign interest in cocktails when a hot tea would be the best thing. (Does that make sense?)

Remember this: The eye with which you see your server is the same eye with which your server sees you.

[cabrales]

I can only second Steve P's observation, some time ago in the "Chef of the Century" thread, of (happy) surprise regarding happenings in a thread during a poster's absence :)  

Quote: from Steve Klc on 12:07 pm on Dec. 22, 2001

I'd say I always put myself in the chef's hands--either off the regular menu, the tasting menu or simply ask the chef to choose for me--and I have never asked for anything special, i.e. substitutions or "special" off-menu dishes, ever.  I want to capture a moment or an experience as determined by that chef at that time.  As often as feasible, I ask that the chef, rather than the sommelier alone, select wines for each one of his courses.  . . . I do derive immense, special joy from those "gifts" or unexpected "amuse" from the chef that you were specifically excluding in your original post.  To sum up, I'd say that the scarcity factor has zero relevance for me--but the "surprise" factor and "lessening of control" factor has much more.

Steve Klc -- I appreciate that the scarcity factor has zero direct relevance for you, but could there be ways in which scarcity enhances the "surprise" element?  For example, if you receive a dish that has not been ordered (or that is not part of a degustation menu ordered), but that is on the restaurant's menu, would you be less thrilled to receive it than a dish that had neither been mentioned in reviews nor incuded on the menu?  As hinted at in Goose in Toulouse (or another book which I cannot recall), Veyrat appears to have a tendancy to provide extra dishes to diners who order degustation menus. However, those dishes, in my experience, are always from the restaurant's regular menu.  If a diner were observant and saw the extra dishes being offered to adjacent tables that had ordered similarly, would the surprise element be muted?

Your pinpointing the effect of surprise is interesting because posters on this board and others interested in food would tend to be less "surprised" at restaurants merely by reason of having read posts or restaurant reviews.  For a diner who has not yet visited a new restaurant, one could argue that, by assembling information about a restaurant (as I am prone to do), he could be balancing the benefits of other people's insights into the restaurant against the reduction of "surprise" elements (not just with respect to dishes, but also other aspects of the restaurant).  For me, this would not tend to be a problem because preferences are so subjective that merely knowing what the offered dishes might be, or others' perspectives on a restaurant, would not reduce the surprise elements of my personal experiences there.

Steve Klc's comments on surprise also suggest another line of discussion.  Some restaurants change their menus with some frequency, and with the availability of different products, the onset of different seasons and developments in the chef's cuisine; others appear to have a more entrenched menu.  How much more might you value a restaurant that has a different menu upon different visits?

Surprise was one of the things that pleased some diners in the old days at Le Gavroche, when Michel and Albert Roux were interchanging between the positions of chef and person taking orders in the room.  Is heightened surprise as to dishes among the things that make worthwhile the increased cost of a "kitchen table" at Gordon Ramsay's at Claridges?  Is there heightened surprise when you watch the dish being prepared (in some cases, to a lesser extent) there, or you wonder which dishes are for you and which for other diners?

Finally, I am curious about the extent to which restaurants track the special occasions (e.g., birthdays, anniversaries) and the food preferences/dislikes of their special clients (whether this be "high-rollers" mentioned in earlier threads or clients whom restaurant personnel personally like).  Also, do such clients expect that a restaurant would remember these aspects, or could there be "surprise" elements there as well?

PS: Like Steve Klc, I tend to let the chef and sommelier guide my experience during a meal.  Steve Klc -- You mention that, to the extent practicable, you may ask the chef to recommend wines for each of his courses.  Is that feasible for bottles because you are dining with large groups or because you drink a great deal?

[cabrales]

Liza, Bux & Fat Guy -- I did not know "mystery shoppers" existed, but the topic is fascinating, just as Michelin inspecteurs are.  Sorry for having so many questions, to which I trust you would respond only to the extent comfortable for you.  Are auditors paid for taking the time to review an establishment, or is the primary method of payment merely the cost of the meal itself?  Is wine covered if the meal is reimbursed?  Finally, the criteria described by Liza appeared to be somewhat "technical" (e.g., time prior to answering of the phone call requesting a reservation).  How are qualitative criteria reviewed by most mystery shopper services (e.g., using a simplified numerical scale, or with more extensive descriptions)?

On the separate question of whether age makes a difference in a diner's interactions with a restaurant, I wonder if younger diners could compensate for any initial disadvantages by dressing well and being immacuately groomed.  

I also wonder if other members may have perceived a correlation between gender (where they are not dining as a couple, and are dining, for example, solo or with friends of the same gender) or race, on one hand, and treatment by restaurants, on the other?  It may be impracticable to directly attribute discrepancies in treatment with gender or race -- hence, my reference to perceived correlation instead of perceived causation.  And, without making suggestions of any kind, are "dinosaurs" or restaurants in certain geographic regions within the US or Europe the places where such perceived discrepancies might exist?  Differential treatment on the described bases would seem to be even more egregious than differential treatment based on age.

[Bux]

For a diner who has not yet visited a new restaurant, one could argue that, by assembling information about a restaurant (as I am prone to do), he could be balancing the benefits of other people's insights into the restaurant against the reduction of "surprise" elements (not just with respect to dishes, but also other aspects of the restaurant).  For me, this would not tend to be a problem

I think the element of surprise is different at a new restaurant and at one in which you've been a repeat diner. At a new restaurant, I am likely to want to taste the chef's specialty--the dish that made him famous perhaps. On a repeat visit, I'm more likley to have already had that dish and want something new. As for gathering advance knowledge, it is the human condition to want to educate ourselves. It's not always to our benefit, but for those who are curious, it's what we tend to do.

A restaurant that changes it's menu is almost always more interesting than one that does not. I don't what to put a strict rule on that. These days, restaurants like Ducasse and Daniel have sources that ensure they have constant supplies and it's rarer and ararer to see a chef dependent on the morning's market, but  restaurant that's constantly changing its menu would be more interesting to me than one that isn't, all other things being equal. All other things are hardly ever anything like equal.

All restaurants are different and surprise comes in different fashions. Frequently the tasting menu is a surprise menu. Sometimes the waiter or captain will ask if we want to know the menu in advance or just have the dishes announced as they come. Generally I'm in favor of not knowing, as long as I can get some guidance on wine.

Surprise can also come in the form of a bonus--a complimentary dish or amuse bouche you neither order or pay for--although in some cases everyone gets it and it's built into the price of dinner. The ultimate surprise may well be a dish that's unexpected in more ways than one--tête de veau perhaps in a restaurant you associate with foie gras, caviar and lobster. Will that be a treat or not?

Pairing wines with courses is generally done by the glass rather than the bottle, but may not be restricted to the selection of wines by the glass generally available.

[robert brown]

The biggest and most frequent surprises I get in a restaurant occur when I open up the bill. Seriously, though, do any of you frequently find mistakes on  bills? If so, what kind? Do you worry that paying a combination hotel-restaurant bill the next morning is a rich source of potential chicanery? Do you find computerized bills more reliable than hand-written ones? Do you worry when you get a vague bill, such as the ones that say just "wine" or "vin" or "2 dinners"?

Otherwise, I go along with Bux in trying to order the chef's best-known dishes on a first visit. Also I agree that restaurants that change their menu tend to be better ones that don't. A restaurant that changes its printed portion seasonally should at least offer several daily specials. But that's another question. Do you find yourself reluctant to order a typed or hand-written daily special figuring that it's maybe a brand new dish that the kitchen staff may have not mastered? One can always ask, I guess; but I find myself frequently shying away from those. How do you all feel about that situation?

(Edited by robert brown at 12:14 pm on Dec. 26, 2001)

(Edited by robert brown at 12:15 pm on Dec. 26, 2001)

[cabrales]

Quote: from Bux on 7:22 pm on Dec. 22, 2001

Steve Plotnicki said "it never bothers me that others get special treatment on a greater scale than I do." . . . . Plotnicki, as do others here and in other threads, describes how to improve your own service and treatment and the joy he experiences has nothing to do with what's happening at other tables.

Bux and Steve P -- I would not let special favors to other diners alter my assessment of a restaurant from an excellent one to not wanting to return.  However, have there been instances where you have been at a restaurant that is difficult to access again (at least in the foreseeable future, whether due to geography or time constraints) and you notice an enticing dish that you would have ordered, had you known about it, but that was off-menu and served to other diners?  Is there a sense in which you covet the dish, such that the knowledge that you could not sample it for an extended period of time (if ever) might lead to disutility (not dissatisfaction with the restaurant, but some negative sentiment) on your part?

[Bux]

Cabrales, I'd have no reason to believe I could get that dish, if it wasn't on the menu or mentioned to me. Should it be available to the public and my waiter neglected to mention it, I might be upset. On the whole, if I'm in a great, or even very good restaurant, for the first time or on a trip where I know I won't be able to return soon, my problem is not usually that there is some unknown dish I might have had, but how to chose one dish from the already enticing menu. This is often the reason I choose a tasting menu in the first place.

[robert brown]

Since everyone is responding to my post just above, let me try this for better luck. Something I have been cogitating on when I was last food touring: What can be most memorable about meal or a place where you eat is the surprise from an unexpected quarter. Examples of this are striking up a conversation with an interesting person or couple at the next table (especially in a foreign country for some reason); encountering a food artisan delivering produce to a restaurant as you are leaving, and then being presented an example of whatever it is. This has happened to me twice in the past six months in Italy where I got an amazing porcini mushroom in Barbaresco territory and a cheese at midnight outside of Asti. Anyway, you get the point. (Others can be being given a tour of the kitchen or a great wine cellar of even having what I call "gastronomic racing luck" in which something knocks you off your plan and you think that what you ended up having to do was even better; or just walking into a restaurant off the street that turns out to be much better than anticipated). I like those kind of surprises. They are easier to remember and I cherish them as much as my memories of great meals or magnificent dishes.

(Edited by robert brown at 5:15 pm on Dec. 26, 2001)

(Edited by robert brown at 5:17 pm on Dec. 26, 2001)

(Edited by robert brown at 9:50 am on Dec. 27, 2001)

[Bux]

My "gastronomic racing luck" story: I had exchanged a few e-mails with a wine maker in one of the Cotes du Rhone Villages and promised to look him up on our drive from Montelimar to the Bas Languedoc where we were to stay with friends for New Year's Eve. The wine maker had been up all night nursing a friend and our visit was short, but lasted long enough for a short walk in the vineyards, where his dog dug up two good sized truffles. He kept the baseball, but insisted we take the golf ball. Unfortuantely our stay with friends was cancelled due to illness which seemed to plague those around us on this trip and we had no kitchen at our disposal. It was quite a few days before we got back to Lyon, where we had an introduction to Pierre Orsi and reservations to dine at his restaurant with some other friends. We called the chef as soon as we arrived in Lyon and quickly brought the truffle over to the restaurant. As we unwrapped it in the kitchen, we could see that it had suffered a bit. He said he'd have his staff clean it up and that we should order his foie gras raviole with truffle sauce that evening. He was standing in the entrance hall when we returned for dinner. The entire conversation had been in French, which may have been more a struggle for him than for me, so I was surprised by his hearty greeting of "It's the truffle man." I've been called a lot of things in my day, but this was one of the few that I wish would have had reason to stick. My wife stopped calling me the truffle man within weeks and no one else seems to have any reason to pick it up. He told us that when the truffle was cleaned up it was in much better shape than we all thought. I'm willing to bet that Orsi's dish would have been one of the memorable dishes of the trip, but under the cover of all that truffle it was an over the top experience. We felt on top of the world that evening. You spend your life reading other people's stories and all of a sudden you're in your own story.

[robert brown]

Bux, That's a really great example; I would be hard-pressed to come up with anything better. Orsi has been on my "must visit" list for visiting. How were the dishes served to the mere mortals?