Le Relais est fini

[hannnah]

Including the contents of their wine cellar. Inventory to be posted Thursday.

Online auction listing

[Mark Sommelier]

So when does Yannick open downtown?

[saycheese]

According to Rasmus, the auction company, Le Relais' assets were sold already, and will not be up for auction.

[pork]

damn. i need to hit an auction. home-cook tools are really starting to get on my nerves. most stuff is ok, but hotel pans, and half-sheets and 1oz ladles would be nice to have again!

[Mark Sommelier]

Yannick opens downtown at 6th and something in March, I heard.

[hannnah]

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Le Relais space since it sounds like they sold everything to one buyer - I was in there once, and it was lovely space despite the odd strip mall location.

Unfortunately I never got to eat there - when we tried they wouldn't serve us because I was wearing sneakers. Perfectly good business casual clothes, and nice clean sneakers, which I wear to work every day because I do a lot of walking. Apparently I must've been going to wave my feet around and scandalize the other diners. Who knew.

[Joe H]

"nice clean sneakers." In a restaurant where diners at the adjacent table may have been spending $150 or more per person. Are you serious? You really don't understand that wearing SNEAKERS to a restaurant like this is an insult to both the restaurant and to those who you may have been seated next to? Sneakers. To a restaurant where Yannick Cam is the chef? Fortunately there are dress codes that are enforced.

[hannnah]

I'll be sure to bring the note from my podiatrist next time I drop serious money on dinner.

[Steve Klc]

You think if Chevy Chase or Gerald Ford had walked in wearing sneakers they'd have been turned away? What if hannah's "sneakers" were Italian, handstitched in Milan and of the finest leather Joe? You'd still prefer $20 Hush Puppies as some kind of valid podiatric litmus test? Of course, by now we all know you'd sing a different tune if you heard that Roberto Donna allowed his female patrons to wear those same chi-chi Italian-designed sneakers. And if the Le Relais example is any guide, it seems restaurants--or chefs--who choose to enforce too many pretentious, inherently hypocritical, rigid and/or antiquated policies, in service of their equally Mesozoic clientele, just might find themselves out of business (or up for auction, as the case may be.) Remember the title of this thread--"Le Relais est fini?"

[JPW]

You think if Chevy Chase or Gerald Ford had walked in wearing sneakers they'd have been turned away? What if hannah's "sneakers" were Italian, handstitched in Milan and of the finest leather Joe?  You'd still prefer $20 Hush Puppies as some kind of valid podiatric litmus test? Of course, by now we all know you'd sing a different tune if you heard that Roberto Donna allowed his female patrons to wear those same chi-chi Italian-designed sneakers.  And if the Le Relais example is any guide, it seems restaurants--or chefs--who choose to enforce too many pretentious, inherently hypocritical, rigid and/or antiquated policies, in service of their equally Mesozoic clientele, just might find themselves out of business (or up for auction, as the case may be.)  Remember the title of this thread--"Le Relais est fini?"

Wow!!

Don't hold back Steve. Tell us what you really think!

[Edited for inability to tpye]

Edited December 18, 2003 by JPW (log)

[bilrus]

You think if Chevy Chase or Gerald Ford had walked in

Steve - you weren't watching an old Saturday Night Live episode last night, were you?

[Mark Sommelier]

You think if Chevy Chase or Gerald Ford had walked in wearing sneakers they'd have been turned away? What if hannah's "sneakers" were Italian, handstitched in Milan and of the finest leather Joe? You'd still prefer $20 Hush Puppies as some kind of valid podiatric litmus test? Of course, by now we all know you'd sing a different tune if you heard that Roberto Donna allowed his female patrons to wear those same chi-chi Italian-designed sneakers. And if the Le Relais example is any guide, it seems restaurants--or chefs--who choose to enforce too many pretentious, inherently hypocritical, rigid and/or antiquated policies, in service of their equally Mesozoic clientele, just might find themselves out of business (or up for auction, as the case may be.) Remember the title of this thread--"Le Relais est fini?"

The Prime Rib and Citronelle are two restaurants that enforce dress codes, neither of which seems to be in danger of going out of business because of it.

[vengroff]

I'm curious, Mark. How often do you turn away diners because they are not suitably dressed? And is there a hard and fast set of guidelines, or does it get fuzzy based on other factors, like VIPness as Klc suggested? What happens when a hotel guest pops dowstairs in a nice pair of jeans and a sweater that very well may have cost as much as a cheap to mid-range suit? I've never been to Citronelle without a suit and tie, but I honestly don't know what the exact dress code is.

Returning to the original discussion, I'm not sure the presence or absense of a dress code was necessarily the main reason for Le Relais' financial problems.

[clifford]

New Guy weighing in here.

Dress codes, to me, are a slippery slope. I am fully supportive of restaurants that have dress codes, as I believe it not only sets the tone and ambience of the dining environs, but for some people, it heightens the anticipation of the dining experience.

I cannot imagine that sneakers violate a dress code,unless they are specifically mentioned. I believe Hannah's problem was that her sneakers were just not all black or all white, and therefore stood out against the rest of her ensemble.

A fashion faux pas? Certainly.

A violation of the dress code? Hardly.

Unless it was specifically mentioned. I have seen plenty of people meet the "Coat and Tie" requirement in gharish, outlandish, and downright hideous ways. But they met the requirement. To refuse service based upon dubious aesthetic judgement seems suspect.

[hannnah]

To clarify, this happened fairly early in Le Relais' life, before Yannick Cam had probably even heard of the place, and there was no mention of dress code on their web site, in any press mentions of the restaurant, or even in a little brass plaque on the door like L'Auberge Chez Francois has.

Enforcing a dress code is one thing at a place like Citronelle that makes it clear they have a dress code. It's an entirely different thing at a newish place in a strip mall next to a wallpaper store and the "Wired Monkey Cafe" where they haven't seen fit to mention to anyone that they don't want anyone casually dressed.

I don't object to dress codes. I object to being blindsided.

[Mark Sommelier]

I'm curious, Mark. How often do you turn away diners because they are not suitably dressed? And is there a hard and fast set of guidelines, or does it get fuzzy based on other factors, like VIPness as Klc suggested? What happens when a hotel guest pops dowstairs in a nice pair of jeans and a sweater that very well may have cost as much as a cheap to mid-range suit? I've never been to Citronelle without a suit and tie, but I honestly don't know what the exact dress code is.

Returning to the original discussion, I'm not sure the presence or absense of a dress code was necessarily the main reason for Le Relais' financial problems.

Darren,

Since everyone making a reservation is reminded that there is a dress code (jackets for men, no jeans, sneakers, sandals), we rarely turn people away. We also have jackets to lend if necessary. We also have no dress code in the bar where we also serve dinner. Citronelle is for most people a special occasion restaurant and they usually dress accordingly.

[Joe H]

Whether there is a dress code or not, do the others in the industry on this board feel that sneakers would be appropriate in their restuarant? In Citronelle? Firefly? Steve, you've already noted that you have no problem with this at Zaytinya or Cafe Atlantico.

I have to tell everyone on this board that this is a real problem with me: if someone doesn't have enough common sense to dress appropriately at a restaurant and the restaurant doesn't enforce a dress code I will not go back. If a restaurant needs the business of someone dressed inappropriately then they certainly don't need mine. For me appropriate dress is a sign of respect for both the restaurant and for those at adjacent tables. Dressy casual is one thing-sneakers are quite another matter.

Frankly, I'm very surprised that Steve feels sneakers would be appropriate for his restaurants. For me the acceptance/allowing of them in a better restaurant speaks volumes. My apologies but I cannot help but feel that way. I wonder if others in the same restaurants react the same way when customers walk in wearing them. They certainly can influence the restaurant's ambience. I should also note that which by now must be obvious: if a customer is dressed inappropriately I blame the restaurant for allowing them in. I don't remember ever seeing customers in Zaytinya or Atlantico in sneakers but I find it extremely interesting that Steve seems to welcome them.

[mrbigjas]

I have to tell everyone on this board that this is a real problem with me: if someone doesn't have enough common sense to dress appropriately at a restaurant and the restaurant doesn't enforce a dress code I will not go back. If a restaurant needs the business of someone dressed inappropriately then they certainly don't need mine.

Wow.

[John W.]

Joe, On some level I agree with you but disagree with you wholeheartedly on many other levels. You have made it quite clear your position on this.

A restaurant such as Citronelle, with it's history, it's chef, it's price point, it's location, it's wine list etc, demands a certain dress. And I endorse a dress code there. And I certainly adhere to it. The situation warrants it.

To continue this exercise, the other places you mention: Firefly and Zaytinya/Cafe Atlantico. As the driving force behind Firefly, I could give a shit if people wear sneakers or shorts or whatever. Our prices don't command it, our neighborhood does not demand it, we are in a hotel, the list goes on. I love the fact that we can have suits sitting next to jeans and the jeans routinely outorder the suits in terms of dollars. I think that is one of the reasons we are successful. As far as Steve's kingdom is concerned, I think he would share the same views, especially as far as Zaytinya and Jaleo are concerned. Joe, if you want to come and wear a jacket and tie at Firefly, I would welcome the respect you are showing us. Believe me. But a whole lot of our clientele don't want to dress up. And we don't force them to. But if we start enforcing a dress code here, we would be 18th Street lounge within a week. And I would kill myself. Sneakers are much better than that to me in this setting.

As far as Le Relais is concerned, I would be annoyed as much as Hannnah was. It appears she tried to locate a dress code, and I believe she would have respected it. To be honest with you, in a strip mall, in Great Falls, with a less than (what is it?) two-year tenure of being open, with no posted notice anywhere, why would you think to dress up? Especially if this place was sans Yannick. That strikes me of unnecessary pretentiousness. Why not post the dress code? Yannick may be a great cook, but it ain't the French Laundry.

I think we share the same dislike of people not respecting restaurants deserved of a dress code, enforced or not. That's the thing for me. Deserved of a dress code. A strip mall in Great Falls would probably not have me reaching for a coat for lunch. But what do I know, I just run a little two-star joint in Dupont. And Joe, as much as we'd like your business, I guess I'll just run into you the next time I'm at the Prime Rib or some other dinosaur.

Edited December 19, 2003 by John W. (log)

[JRage]

I'm with Steve and John. Dress code places are fine, especially when they are prepared to be accommodating, i.e lending jackets. I don't really think a person's dress is a reflection of how much respect they give the chef, the restaurant or their dining neighbors. If I'm in a "dress up" place and I spy a pair of "sneakers" at a table nearby, it doesn't cheapen my experience. I'd much rather have a place that prides itself on making everyone feel comfortable, no matter what they are wearing. There are plenty of places where the food is "tuxedo" great, but actually wearing a tuxedo doesn't make it taste better. And I'm just guessing here, but I'd wager that my chefs don't give a crap what the patrons' eating their food have on, just so that they are wearing an expression of satisfaction on their faces.

...And Hannah, You and your nice clean sneakers are welcome anytime at my place.

[Al_Dente]

I have to tell everyone on this board...

No you don't.

I have to ask. Is there anyone on this thread you think you should apologize to? I think you were way too critical (on a personal level) of an above post before knowing all the facts.

Edited December 19, 2003 by Al_Dente (log)

[bilrus]

I don't remember ever seeing customers in Zaytinya or Atlantico in sneakers but I find it extremely interesting that Steve seems to welcome them.

I have found myself in sneakers at Zaytinya and didn't feel out of place, although I normally would dress differently. My wife and I went into Cafe Atlantico before a hockey game dressed as you would for a hockey game and didn't feel comfortable and ended up leaving.

Depending on your view and background, you might consider it an indictment of society at large that we are becoming more casual as a society (I personally don't have a problem with it, but some people do). We aren't the same society that wore coats and ties or dresses and pearls around the house. The average office doesn't require the "IBM Man" blue suit anymore.

What is "appropriate" has changed over the years depending on the situation.

[Busboy]

I don't remember ever seeing customers in Zaytinya or Atlantico in sneakers but I find it extremely interesting that Steve seems to welcome them.

I have found myself in sneakers at Zaytinya and didn't feel out of place, although I normally would dress differently. My wife and I went into Cafe Atlantico before a hockey game dressed as you would for a hockey game and didn't feel comfortable and ended up leaving.

I personally don't think any male over the age of 16 should leave the house in sneakers unless they are about to participate in an athletic event, but my side lost that battle long ago. And don't get me started on baseball hats.

I think, this side of Citronelle, litmus tests are a little silly, but that people need to show a little -- lack of a better word -- class at any restaurant above the level of neighborhood "joint." If I show up at Firefly in a cruddy old t-shirt and the same jeans I wore to pull the transmission, and a pair of casual Italian loafers, while Bill shows up in a decent outfit set off by a pair of sneaks, I think he's clearly showing and adult attitude while I'm in a juvenile "you're not the boss of me" kind of snit.

I've eaten in places where I was, I felt, inappropriately dressed when circumstances somehow made it desireable to do so. I even lunched in the Prime Rib in blue jeans and a sweater (no sneaks, though). But when I do it, I find the maitre d' and ask first, and I make it clear that I respect his judgement regarding what is and what is not appropriate in his or her establishment.

[John W.]

I've eaten in places where I was, I felt, inappropriately dressed when circumstances somehow made it desireable to do so.  I even lunched in the Prime Rib in blue jeans and a sweater (no sneaks, though).  But when I do it, I find the maitre d' and ask first, and I make it clear that I respect his judgement regarding what is and what is not appropriate in his or her establishment.

That's the answer to this thread for me.

As for the cruddy old T-shirt, I hope it doesn't happen (and it really doesn't happen much), sometimes it does. I have other things that piss me off more now.

When I lived in Napa, I worked at a restaurant with an open kitchen. I used to work myself up into a lather when people would come in to dinner in shorts etc. After two years of being really annoyed at it, I became immune to it there. I'm certainly not advocating improper dress, but for some restaurants it's an argument I feel that doesn't need to happen. As for the Penn Quarter restaurant/dress codes, you better believe that the MCI center is an integral part of their business plans, T-shirts and jeans included.

[Joe H]

I'm probably wrong to lump certain restaurants in with Citronelle, Maestro and Le Relais (I'll come back to this) since there is a different price point as well as a different audience. I realize that Zaytinya (with 150+ seats) and the type of menu that it has, in a sense, could almost lend itself to a more casual ambience. On my three visits, all on weekdays during dinner, it was much dressier. But I can see where I may be wrong on this.

About Le Relais: I stand by my point. When Yannick was there I would have walked out if he had let someone sit next to me with sneakers on. I never went to Le Relais before Yannick I was there. I did go to Le Pavilion and did have a level of expectation when I walked into the room. To say this is in a strip mall creates an impression of a laid back casual ambience that could not be further from the truth. With $35 to $40 entrees and $20+ appetizers once you walked in the door the ambience seemed smartly suited to an upscale suburban chic if you will. I cannot imagine that ANYONE would have felt comfortable having dinner in there. On three or four weekend visits in the spring and fall almost every man had at least a sport coat on and the few that didn't were still dressed well. Sneakers were totally inappropriate; anyone would realize this as soon as they opened the door and left the strip mall expectation. I could see a summer afternoon sitting on their terrace dressed more casually. But again, dinner at Le Relais with checks in the $250 to 400 range + depending on wine had much more in common with Citronelle and than with the image of a any "strip mall."

About Le Relais failing: I have a sister who had one of D. C.'s 50 best restaurants (source: Richman). She worked her ass off (and still does) 80 to 100 hours a week, every week. She also filed bankruptcy a number of years ago after killing herself trying. Steve, I wouldn't be so cavalier or indifferent about someone failing. Perhaps I am reading something into your comment that I shouldn't; still, Cam announced he was leaving. This restaurant had not attracted a following before him, there could have been no reason for its owner to believe it would survive without him. He also tried to bring Cam in with a percentage of ownership, I think fearing that eventually Cam would leave. For whatever reason Le Relais was successful when Cam was there ONLY because of Cam. I am also assuming that in Cam's last year it was overall successful. Weekends there were several week waits for reservations; weeknights I don't know-I never went.

As for Steve's comments about Italian leather, El Bulli and so forth, what is your problem? Is there something wrong with my travelling extensively in Europe and favoring several restaurants there, including a recent experience at Le Calandre or a visit to Dal Forno meeting the winemaker? On having lost interest in visiting El Bulli where I cancelled a reservation? Yet would fly back across the Atlantic to go to Le Calandre again. On the one hand I am fortunate to have certain experiences. On the other I spend far too many nights away from home hating travel that I am locked in to because of my business. You must also know from my three + years of posting on Chowhound that I love Washington, D. C., was born here and know that I am lucky to live here. You must also know that I have said many times we are fortunate to have Fabio, Roberto and Michel. I remember when this city had La Salle du Bois and the Shrimpboat. The first was terrible and the latter is still missed by me.