Son of St John

[Miss J]

the eccles cakes were among the most delicious food i have ever eaten.

Yes! Yes, they are.

*falls into dreamy eccles cake contemplation*

[magnolia]

the eccles cakes were among the most delicious food i have ever eaten.

Yes! Yes, they are.

*falls into dreamy eccles cake contemplation*

Careful, the eccles cakes are addictive. I regularly stop by on my way *back* from the gym and undo everything I've just done... I'm almost relieved if they have run out by the time I get there.

[Miss J]

Careful, the eccles cakes are addictive. I regularly stop by on my way *back* from the gym and undo everything I've just done... I'm almost relieved if they have run out by the time I get there.

I know. I'm fully prepared for the day that I wake up in my living room, unsure how I got there, dressed in last weeks' clothes with The Velvet Underground looping on the stereo and a fine film of eccles cake crumbs on every surface...

[cabrales]

after experiencing the raw peas first-hand, i have to say i rather enjoyed them . . . .i am intrigued by st john.  i want to go back.

stellabella -- When you have a chance, could you consider discussing the other dishes in your meal at St John? A refreshing beverage available from the bar, which is not generally listed on the per glass wine selection on the chalkboard, is Brittany cider. It goes well with certain pork dishes that might be available from time to time at St John.

[magnolia]

"I know. I'm fully prepared for the day that I wake up in my living room, unsure how I got there, dressed in last weeks' clothes with The Velvet Underground looping on the stereo and a fine film of eccles cake crumbs on every surface..."

OK, I admit it. I could hold out no longer. I had a huge craving...so...I WENT TO THE GYM! And through the whole horrible ordeal, a little voice in my head was saying "must...have...Eccles...cake" I felt my life was no longer in my own control. When I stopped by St John, the bakery counter was just COVERED with Eccles cakes. Buttery, curranty, flaky, wonderful Eccles cakes ! I could barely muster up the polite smalltalk I usually engage in with the cute guy with the longish hair, before saying "just gimme the damn thing and here's your £1.50" but I did...and was richly rewarded.

Say, anyone know what's up with that cow in the middle of the traffic island on St John's street, with its tail pointed toward St John Bakery and it's nose toward the pass-through street to Clerkenwell Road? It reminds me of a Gateway box.

[Miss J]

Say, anyone know what's up with that cow in the middle of the traffic island on St John's street, with its tail pointed toward St John Bakery and it's nose toward the pass-through street to Clerkenwell Road? It reminds me of a Gateway box.

Yep. We've been invaded by that cute Artistic Cow Concept that's hit many major cities around the globe. We have a cow here at Canary Wharf, too. It's got its back to West India Quay:

Everything you ever wanted to know about the CowParade

Edit - oops, it turns out we actually have EIGHT of the bloody things here. Obviously, being a country girl I'm so blase about them I just hadn't noticed.

The St John St cow is named Turbo Cow

[John Whiting]

On Friday Wilfrid and I lunched at St. John’s. We both ate moderately; my share consisted of the well-known bone marrow with salad as starter and a main course of sautéed kidneys. Vegetables and potatoes must be ordered separately; I had runner beans and Wilfrid had boiled spuds; we shared them both.

St. John’s, as everyone knows, is a rather austerely converted warehouse, the style set by Terrence Conran when he created the oyster bar downstairs in the old Michelin building. Like the entire operation, it is tasteful and restrained in every respect save the billing. The kidneys came to £13.50, plus £3 for the beans and another £3 for the potatoes. The beans were like what, during the season, we put on the table every day from our own garden; the simple boiled potatos quite as tasty as what we buy for loose change at our corner shop.

As for the kidneys, they were admirable. And so they should be – there’s nothing difficult about sautéeing a kidney, so long as you know when to stop. Mary did it the following night; I thought hers were made slightly more interesting by the addition of a bit of dry mustard to the flour. A portion for two had set me back a quid at the Borough Market. Let’s see, £1 goes into £27 twenty-seven times – that’s a 27,000 percent mark-up. I can hardly wait for the game season. We’ve already applied for a second mortgage.

[Kikujiro]

Let’s see, £1 goes into £27 twenty-seven times – that’s a 27,000 percent mark-up.

Well, actually it's a 2,600 percent markup, but that doesn't detract from your overall point

Oh, and thanks for the Guardian link on the same subject.

By the way, isn't the board quiet? Have the rest of you all gone away for the weekend?

[John Whiting]

Well, actually it's a 2,600 percent markup, but that doesn't detract from your overall point  

Many thanks for that -- I'm terrible at maths!

[macrosan]

John, I'd be interested to know what you think a reasonable price would have been for the kidneys (that would have cost you £1 at the market).

[John Whiting]

John, I'd be interested to know what you think a reasonable price would have been for the kidneys (that would have cost you £1 at the market).

I wouldn't know without examining their accounts, and then I still wouldn't know. I only know that I found £13.50 to be ludicrous for simple food simply served in a simple ambience. This isn't Henderson-bashing; it's just a statement of fact. I enjoyed the meal (partly because I enjoyed the company), but I wouldn't go back and order it again. During the game season I may well return; I'm sure the mark-up will be much less.

My underlying point was that in France -- or especially in Italy -- one would not have to go to a bankers' hideaway and pay toff prices to eat simple well-cooked local food. In St. John's I felt as if I had entered a Watteau landscape -- exquisite but not quite real. But then it's generally quite expensive these days to eat like an authentic peasant.

[macrosan]

During the game season I may well return; I'm sure the mark-up will be much less

Hah, I wouldn't be so sure

My experience is that London is little different in price from any major city in the world. My instinct is that Brussels, New York and Chicago are maybe more expensive than London, I feel that Miami, Edinburgh and Dallas are a bit cheaper. Of course second-string towns like Bournemouth, Rockford IL, Taormina and so on are cheaper. That's a combination of overhead costs and market perception at work.

When we had our recent mini-eGullevent at St John with Stellabella, we had an excellent meal for £20 per person, and I thought that was very cheap. I can see where ordering a meal just like a simple home-cooked meal would make you more price conscious, and maybe less willing to pay for the cost of a professional chef. That goes back to prior comments on pea-pods.

[stellabella]

cabrales, the two most memorable foods were the bone marrow and the eccles cakes, with macrosan's chips & aioli coming in a close third. miss j's middlewhite was tasty, but i didn't think my husband's fish [plaice on the bone] was anything to write home about, nor my jellied rabbit--as my mother said, rabbit should be fried up in a pan and served with brown gravy, and i think she's right. by the time we arrived at st. john i had had several pints at the wenlock and therefore didn't care to drink much more. if i go back i'll look for this cider you mention.

i'm gonna come right out and say it. while very honored to have shared a bite of jon's tripe, i didn't love it. i didn't hate it, but i didn't love it. but i will try tripe again, prepared another way.

as for good value, guys, who knows? i try not to think about the dollar-pound conversion--i live on X number of pounds per day, and if i spend them all on one meal, and the meal was good, then fine, so be it. while in GB i never allow myself to think, Oh, that cost £10, but it REALLY cost $16--because it didn't really cost $16--, it REALLY cost £10. that said, i know very well how far a dollar should go, and i always assume a pound should go as far, but perhaps i am wrong. in any case, i didn't think st. john's was terribly expensive at all.

i gotta go get some eccles cakes.

[Wilfrid]

The company enjoyment at my lunch with John was mutual. I reflected to myself some time ago (before eGullet, I used to reflect harmlessly to myself all the time) ... that the return of some excellent inexpensive ingredients to restaurant menus was very welcome. I have in mind the grand return made by such things as wild rabbit, pigeon, pig's trotters, blood puddings, faggots even! But the restaurateurs still need to make money, and the mark-ups on such ingredients are often staggering. Even the vastly expensive food emporium Dean & Deluca, in NYC, practically gives away marrow bones for free. When I lived in London, a whole wild rabbit could be yours, head and all, for two quid. If Fergus Henderson sold such dishes at a price which reflected their wholesale value, his restaurant would be a dim memory by now.

I enjoyed a light snail salad, and then tender roast lamb with a very interesting accompaniment - green beans in a kind of Caesar salad dressing, with anchovies. An honest E.Guigal Cotes du Rhone to wash it down. I thought forty pounds a head was fair enough, although I would agree the menu is rather more exciting during the game season.

Hmmm, not long until the glorious Twelfth, is it?

[John Whiting]

I should reiterate what I've already said -- that I wasn't accusing Henderson of a rip-off, but commenting sadly on the concatenation of factors which makes England more expensive than most of Europe for eating a good simple meal away from home. That's why I tend to save up my restaurant meals and take them together in France, thus getting the travel -- as a bonus from the less expensive dinners -- absolutely free.

[cabrales]

That's why I tend to save up my restaurant meals and take them together in France, thus getting the travel -- as a bonus from the less expensive dinners -- absolutely free.

John -- On saving up restaurant meals, could you consider discussing whether you might generally experience the same (or more) total fulfillment from, say, five good meals taken in close temporal proximity to one another as you might from five equally good meals spaced apart (assuming the costs for each series of meals were identical)?

[John Whiting]

It's not that complicated. I just like France and will sieze any available excuse for going there. If the food in Paris were inedible and overpriced, I would still pretend that I was enjoying it.

[cabrales]

I just like France and will sieze any available excuse for going there.

John -- Ditto.

[thomas jerome newton]

glad to see you folk talking about st. john...one of my all time favourites, though i don't get to go as often as i used to sadly.

whilst over the years it has been open the prices have risen i still think it offers good value. i have never eaten there and left hungry, unlike i did when i was taken to the connaught at around £80.00 per head for food if you can adam and eve it, on occasions unable to finish what was on the plate!

recently i visited and ordered the chicken, chips and aioli at £16.00...i can see how some people would be aghast at such a price for a bit of chuck and spuds but i really couldn't finish it all which is a shame as it was fantastic chicken, i asked about it's origins and the waiter told me they used organic birds from the west country...they actually showed me one coming out of the oven and it was HUGE...the size of a turkey or not far off on account of the birds being allowed to grow fully, roam freely and eat plenty of corn.

when i go out to eat i don't actually pay that much attention to the figures, except maybe on the wine list because i know i can get a good bottle for under £30.00...number crunching spoils the occasion for me, dining out is a hobby for me, like most it comes at a price...and one i am willing to pay if the food is as accomplished, honest and..if it must be said...good value.

henderson in my opinion acheives all these criteria

[John Whiting]

One thing keeps coming out -- diners have not been overcharged if they are in possession of all the facts and still don't *think* they have been overcharged. (Of course they haven't necessarily been overcharged just because they think so.) It's not unlike buying an antique -- how much are you willing to pay for what the shop has to offer?

My own admittedly personal response is that, on the whole, I think I am being overcharged, not by this restaurant or that, but by the great majority of non-ethnic restaurants in Britain. You could quite legitimately argue that this is my problem, not theirs. I'll buy that -- if the price is right!

[Wilfrid]

I honestly wonder about that, John. Similar questions were debated at length in relation to Manhattan restaurants on another site. I may be gullible, but when I consider the overheads involved in running an attractive restaurant with good service in Manhattan or in central London, I am only suprised menu prices are not higher. I think, with a few exceptions, these restaurants are not goldmines. Most people could make more money running a sandwich bar than a restaurant.

On the other hand, I agree that you could be served a plate of good kidneys in a corner caff for less than thirteen quid.

[John Whiting]

Maybe I didn't quite make it clear that I think I am being overcharged *compared with what I am happy to pay*, and that this does not necessarily correspond to what the economic climate dictates. I'm making an inherently unfair comparison with France and Italy, which give me what I want at a price I like. It's inherent in the cultures of these two countries. To "blame" England for its lack of a living culinary tradition would be as unfair as to blame Dartmoor for being flat.

[Wilfrid]

Actually, it is all England's fault, because you don't need to go through it to get to somewhere else. Have I got that right?

[John Whiting]

No. but you have to go round Robin Hood's barn! (I'll use an emoticon again just this once.)

[cabrales]

I think I am being overcharged *compared with what I am happy to pay*, and that this does not necessarily correspond to what the economic climate dictates.

John -- Could you consider discussing what determinants there may be to amounts you are "happy" to pay? Is there a sum (e.g., in pounds) beyond which you would not under any circumstances pay outside of France, regardless of the pleasure derived?

If your observation is that you are subjectively not willing to pay the prices being charged by certain London restaurants, that is a different point than a broader assertion that, for many diners other than you, eating a good simple meal outside of the home at reasonable prices is more difficult in England than in the remainder of Europe.