Aux Lyonnais

[chefzadi]

. . . .Once you take cuisine out of Lyon...

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Actually this was something they seemed to do better in the old days, and Aux Lyonais was an old established bistrot. Ducasse and the owner of l'Ami Louis bought it jointly with the intent of preserving it as best they could. It opened to great reviews, but the original chef went to les Ambassadeurs with Piege who had trained him and some people have reported a decline since then. I'm inclined to believe it's come back, if our meal was any indication. The food is not necessarily authenticly Lyonnaisse in style. I'd say the fare is a cross between Paris and Lyon and a cross between 1965 and 2005. It reminds me very much of why I was so struck by French food even on my early budgets.

The 28€ prix fixe meal from 2004 was:

Planche de charcuterie lyonnaise

- ou -

Emincé de chou blanc et oeuf mollet, canard confit

Quenelle et écrevisses

- ou -

Foie de veau persillé, copeaux de pomme de terre

Fromage frais

- ou -

Chcoclat Viennois, glace vanille

In addition to a wine list strong in beaujolais and inexpensive wines, they had on offer a Mazy-Chambertine Grand cru in 46 cl. carafes at 42€. I remember someone complaining that the carafe wines were expensive. That's not what I'd call a carafe wine and bottles of good beaujolais were considerably less expensive.

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I don't think you could find this in London for the equivilant of 28 Euros. Even with the todays exchange rate for the dollar I would consider it a good value.

[Bux]

I don't think you could find this in London for the equivilant of 28 Euros. Even with the todays exchange rate for the dollar I would consider it a good value.

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But the value is dependent on the quality, not just the price and the name of the dish, and with the exception of the potatoes one afternoon, I thought the quality and the service both excellent value, even at the higher à la carte price.

[phaelon56]

Given that fact that I have never in my life been to Paris, do I stand a cat in hell's chance of finding a decent dining experience without a lot of signposting from those in the know?

My fiancee and I just returned from our first trip to Paris. Despite recognizing that I'm quite possibly a less discerning eater than many on this board and unquestionably possessed of far less "fine or finer" dining experience, I still had some concerns that I might be a bit disappointed.

If I had the depth and breadth of experience that folks such as Bux or John Talbott do, I'd likely be comparing experiences of years past to what's available at present and might find a number of disappointments. Instead, my reference point was the "better" restaurants presently available in my current location (a smallish blue collar city in central NY state) and also the lower to mid level places I've dined in NYC (and even a few of the finer dining experiences I've enjoyed in NYC).

We ate at L'Epi Dupin, La Boussole and Les Clos du Gourmets (apologies if I've botched the spelling). The price fixe for three courses was 31, 25 (or was it 28?) and 33 Euros respectively (not including wine). The total bill for two, always including at least one coffee, a large bottle of mineral water, one apertif and one glass of house wine (and in one case two supplemental charges) ranged from about 83 to 108 Euros.

All three of these establishments were radically different from one another in their ambiance, decor, approach to food and style of service. All three were recommendations from this forum and did not disappoint.

I've always considered NYC to offer a reasonably good value per dollar spent on food in restaurants. IMHO, my Paris experience, despite the dollar weighing in at 74 cents per Euro when we were there, offered far superior food for the money. With tax and service charge included (although we typically always tipped an extra 10%) our meals in Paris were a tremendous value.

There were also, outside of touristy areas, many neighborhood bistro's we happened across and would love to try on future visits. The daily plats in many of those places were sometimes as low as 10 -12 euros for a two course or 15 - 18 Euro's for a three course. These were in most cases fairly casual and humble places, often with country style food (cassoulet and the like). But my experience indicates that the food in many would be far better than what I'd find most places in the US. Here in the States I can't eat that cheap even at a mediocre chain restaurant.

Was there a downside? Yes - we immediately found most of the restaurant offerings we encountered uopn our return home to be disappointing and throughly unappealing

[John Talbott]

We ate at L'Epi Dupin, La Boussole and Les Clos du Gourmets

All three of these establishments were radically different from one another in their ambiance, decor, approach to food and style of service.  All three were recommendations from this forum and did not disappoint.

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Thar you go. Good to hear it. This is why one should listen to what's happening here.

[John Talbott]

Given that fact that I have never in my life been to Paris, do I stand a cat in hell's chance of finding a decent dining experience without a lot of signposting from those in the know?

Yup. Don't be intimidated by all the stuff here, we're basically just poseurs, strutting our peacock plumage. Read this Forum, trust in your hunches, buy Zurban, Figaroscope + Time Out when you land and don't sweat the small stuff. I just had 3 fabulous meals in 10 days, that equal any others for years; more or less falling into them. OK, so the rest weren't Mt. Everest. Hope, trust, glory!

[chefzadi]

Given that fact that I have never in my life been to Paris, do I stand a cat in hell's chance of finding a decent dining experience without a lot of signposting from those in the know?

Yup. Don't be intimidated by all the stuff here, we're basically just poseurs, strutting our peacock plumage. Read this Forum, trust in your hunches, buy Zurban, Figaroscope + Time Out when you land and don't sweat the small stuff. I just had 3 fabulous meals in 10 days, that equal any others for years; more or less falling into them. OK, so the rest weren't Mt. Everest. Hope, trust, glory!

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Glad someone finally admitted that John.

Just a note to Culinary Bear though. The French breakfast is decidedly lighter than a traditional English one. So if your used to a hearty breakfast it won't be easy to find. And when you do find it, it can be more expensive than lunch with considerably less food on the plate.

Another thing about Paris is that unless you are familiar with the names of chain bistros/brasseries it can be difficult for a new comer to tell them apart from a sole proprietorship (hoping for a chef/owner) that might make everything from scratch (increasingly harder to find). It took my wife a few trips to be able to discern them. She's not much into guide books. She has traveled alot and knows her food, no slouch here. So if you're opposed to eating at franchises you might want to look up names to avoid. But given the value for quality of food that many of them can offer, I see no reason to go out of one's way to avoid them.

I think that your overall culinary experience in Paris will be enjoyable. Everything won't be fantastic, but it will be hard to find bad food as it is known in the UK or America (should I duck at this point? ) .

One last thing, the English like a proper, straight que. The French congregate like a herd even in Metro lines. They touch strangers too, second meeting with a new friend often involves kissing cheeks...

[culinary bear]

Chefzadi - I'm a chef, and breakfast usually consists of however many espressos the waiting staff can deliver to the pass. Queues : I'm over 6'4 and 250lbs; I should cope.

John - Thank you; I shall report back with positives and negatives both.

[Poppy Quince]

Have I gotta place for you which I'll post in a few days; Cinq Mars which Sebastian Demorand of Zurban raved about yesterday; it's the classic bistro stuff with the best modern products and technique; a really nice way to start off the year.

It's at 51, rue de Verneuil in the 7th, 01.45.44.69.13, ...

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So that's what's replaced Androuët at that location! I'll look forward to trying it.

[Bux]

I can't offer much help on how Paris compares to London, now or then. I have been in London, but for precious few days both now and then. NY I know pretty well and Paris is not unknown to me. I don't spend much time there, but eat far more intently when I'm there than when I'm home. Here, I may really want to eat in a particular restaurant, but I put off making a reservation sensing there's no hurry. A trip to Paris is usually the cause of some concentrated planning, reserving and above all, dining out.

There was a time when if was almost impossible to find a bad meal in Paris and almost impossible to find a really good and interesting meal in NY that wasn't expensive, except perhaps in Chinatown. The value of the dollar to the franc made the difference all that much more noticeable.

In the last thirty to forty years, French food has declined as France has become a less agricultural nation and food has improved here in the US. In the last couple of years, the dollar has taken a nose dive. For all that, at many price levels, one can eat far better in Paris than in NY. In both cities you do need to do some advace planning to avoid the really bad meal and to find the really interesting places. As a New Yorker, my ear is closer to the ground here and that gives me a good home court advantage. On the other hand, I think Parisian restaurants are more closely watched and reported on than those in NY and an English speaking stranger to both cites should have an easier time finding both good food and good value in Paris than NY. If you speak French and can read French guides with fluency, there's no contest. If you leave it entirely to chance and pick restaurants at random, I won't guarantee you'll ever find value, but your chances of finding it in Paris are better than in NY.

When I travel, there are a few benchmark home town restaurants I keep in mind. Frequently a highly touted restaurant abroad falls short in comparison, but it's clear I'm stacking them against a favorite. Most of the restaurants I try on good recommendations in NY don't come near comparing to my favorite Parisian restaurants. That wonderful calves' liver I had at Aux Lyonnais, inspired me to order liver several times in NY. I never had liver that compared, but I have paid more, and when I got back to Aux Lyonnais, I was even more convinced that nothing had come close.

I'm still thrilled to visit Paris. My pace quickens as does my pulse when I walk down the street in Paris. The difference between now and thirty or forty years ago, was that I no longer dread coming back to NY. I know where I can eat well and have exciting meals here. In the sixties, I found the return quite depressing.

[Carlsbad]

"I just had 3 fabulous meals in 10 days, that equal any others for years; more or less falling into them. OK, so the rest weren't Mt. Everest."

Don't tell anyone, but the secret is to have someone who knows what makes a good restaurant scan ten places and find the three fabulous ones. Then, when you have your week (or two this year) in Paris, you go to the ones he said were fabulous. It's pretty simple.

[John Talbott]

Have I gotta place for you which I'll post in a few days; Cinq Mars which Sebastian Demorand of Zurban raved about yesterday; it's the classic bistro stuff with the best modern products and technique; a really nice way to start off the year.

It's at 51, rue de Verneuil in the 7th, 01.45.44.69.13, ...

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So that's what's replaced Androuët at that location! I'll look forward to trying it.

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Maybe but Androuet's still on the street, just down a bit towards the Rue de Bac.

[Poppy Quince]

So that's what's replaced Androuët at that location!  I'll look forward to trying it.

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Maybe but Androuet's still on the street, just down a bit towards the Rue de Bac.

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The shop is still there, but the restaurant at number 51 closed in October of last year and, after dealing with my disappointment at not being able to eat cheese for every course, I wondered what would go in next.