Going French in NJ

[menton1]

Went to the highly acclaimed Saddle River Inn last week, and was a bit disappointed. The place was beautiful, but the service was chilly. By the treatment toward some other diners there, it seems that you have to be a regular to get any warmth from them. Worst of all, after paying the check and exiting, no acknowledgement of any kind was given to us!! At the very least in a restaurant of this caliber I expect a perfunctory "thank you" from somebody. That's what is so wonderful in France. At the most modest establishment "la politesse" is so crucial-- an animated "Merci--Bonsoir!!" is ALWAYS de rigeur!!

P.S. I hear Latour/Ridgewood has great food and "chilly" service as well-- any reports on Jocelynes in Maplewood?

Thanks.

[Rosie]

Jocelyne's has excellent food and the hostess, Jocelyne is very warm and caring. Epernay in Montclair, a French bistro, is also very good. Have always had memorable meals at both of these BYO restaurants.

[cdma2001]

I went to Latour in Sept. and it's true-- they did not smile once!! But the frisee salad was the best I've ever had-- I will think twice about the Saddle River Inn now-- thanks for the input.

[BeaChambers]

We like Jocelyn's and Chez Catherine in Westfield.

[Rosie]

Chez Catherine has new owners.

[jdetal]

I stopped going to the Saddle River Inn some years ago when I asked the waitress about ingredients in a few entrees (I'm gluten intolerant and allergic to soy), she went to check and came back to take the order saying she could not answer. I asked her to send the maitre d to the table and he went to check but came back saying no one knew in the kitchen about the ingredients. If no one knew whether there is flour in a sauce or on meat before sauteeing, I had to conclude that the chef was away and the meals were prepared in advance.

[tommy]

I stopped going to the Saddle River Inn some years ago when I asked the waitress about ingredients in a few entrees (I'm gluten intolerant and allergic to soy),

janice bistro, in ho-ho-kus, caters to gluten intolerant people. what's the name of that disorder again?

[ngatti]

I stopped going to the Saddle River Inn some years ago when I asked the waitress about ingredients in a few entrees (I'm gluten intolerant and allergic to soy), she went to check and came back to take the order saying she could not answer. I asked her to send the maitre d to the table and he went to check but came back saying no one knew in the kitchen about the ingredients. If no one knew whether there is flour in a sauce or on meat before sauteeing, I had to conclude that the chef was away and the meals were  prepared in advance.

Unfair!!

Celiac and gluten intolerance is not exactly something chefs run across on a daily basis. In my experience it's not as common as a peanut or shellfish allergy. Several years ago (as you state) allergy awareness wasn't even on most of our radars.

Gluten is such a pervasive ingredient that even I'm hard put to try to figure every item in my kitchen that may have come into contact with it, or every prepared ingredient in my pantry that may have it. I should think that Hans Egg might have the same difficulty. A mistake may cost you a hospital visit so I as well as the maitre'd and cook you speak of may decide to err on the side of caution.

This, of course, begs the question; If your allergy is that severe, and the Saddle River Inn being a destination restaurant; Why didn't you call ahead to plan your meal with the chef or maitre'd. I assure you, at this level of dining, these type of requests are catered to. However, to walk in and announce your food intolerances at the time of the meal bespeaks a selfish level of diner entitlement at best and rudeness at worst.

Allegies this severe place the onus on the diner *NOT* the chef.

Nick

[tommy]

Allegies this severe place the onus on the diner *NOT* the chef.  

Nick

agreed.

there are websites and a whole network of people that list restaurants that go to great measures to cater to this allergy. to think that any restaurant would be able to accommodate celiac upon walking in unannounced might be a little on the presumptuous side.

[jdetal]

I have to disagree. If I ask whether there is flour or soy in a dish, any chef should be able to tell me if he/she prepares the meal. I have never had a restaurant refuse to tell me (other than Saddle River Inn) and most are courteous enough to identify dishes (like soups) not prepared on premises. Many chefs volunteer to prepare an entree without using flour for sauteeing or substituting a sauce wthout flour.

I echo Menton's complaint about the general lack of effort to welcome diners with service and smiles. When you experience a place like Restaurant Serenade in Chatham where you are helped with your coat and napkins and wine and orders it's noteworthy. It is not strictly French but offers excellent food, lovely surroundings, a nice wine list and first rate service with (Riedel glasses). Worth a special trip in my opinion.

Also, Janice's does not cater to gluten intolerant - I was there and asked her having seen her write up but she can identify the ingriedients she uses.

[tommy]

Also, Janice's does not cater to gluten intolerant - I was there and asked her having seen her write up but she can identify the ingriedients she uses.

you are either lying or completely misinformed.

in fact, i'm not sure what you're suggesting.

sorry either way.

what's your point?

[201]

Tommy - I believe what Jdetal was saying was:

Janice doesn't "cater" to the gluten-intolerant, but they CAN identify whether gluten is used in a particular dish. It's the difference between saying "Let me make you a special meal without gluten" and "I'm sorry, but you can't eat that because it has gluten in it." Jdetal says this from personal experience, but apparently was somewhat misled in this regard by a write-up.

I can't confirm the correctness of these statements since I still haven't been to Janice (though I expect to be there next week)... I'm just trying out my English-to-English translation skills.

[tommy]

Tommy - I believe what Jdetal was saying was:

Janice doesn't "cater" to the gluten-intolerant, but they CAN identify whether gluten is used in a particular dish.  It's the difference between saying "Let me make you a special meal without gluten" and "I'm sorry, but you can't eat that because it has gluten in it."  Jdetal says this from personal experience, but apparently was somewhat misled in this regard by a write-up.

I can't confirm the correctness of these statements since I still haven't been to Janice (though I expect to be there next week)... I'm just trying out my English-to-English translation skills.  

janice bistro is well-known, in the celiac circles. janice has a separate menu. in my eyes, they "cater" to this. janice has several relatives with celiac, and is the most informed person i've come across regarding this issue (at least in restaurant circles, and then in my limited experience of inquiring).

although i appreciate your commentary, there's probably no way that you would know janice's policy on this unless you have inquired of the disorder.

bottom line, as ngatti has suggested, is if you have an allergy that might send you to the hostpital or kill you, it's up to you to figure it out.

to do otherwise could be considered ignorant, or deadly.

[201]

Tommy - Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I was just trying to explain what I thought Jdetal was talking about (since I've never been to Janice and never heard of celiac... I obviously have NO idea what I'm talking about).

Jdetal - Were you perhaps misinformed? Have you spoken to Janice?

(Trying to reprise my role as mediator... )

[ngatti]

I'm not talking about prepared dishes. A request such as "no roux based sauces" or "please no flour in the sauteeing" is easy. However, I have a couple of hundred individual ingredients in my pantries and freezers. Many are used as ingredients on a daily basis What may or may not be gluten free is beyond me. To inquire after such in the middle of service is...well...I hope you get the point. You may think you're getting what you ask for, but maybe... Some requests for flour free will so sully a dish (that may have had a lot of time and effort put into it) that the chef understandably won't change it.

Of course you can still disagree. No problem. It's not personal. The last time I checked (about two weeks ago), there was still a about a thirty day wait for a weekend res.

Saddle River Inn? Yours and Menton's are the first bad things I've ever heard about the place. Ever.

Seranade? I won't comment. But I have eaten there.

Nick

[201]

Just did a little search and found this link to restaurants in the NYC metropolitan area with gluten-free diet awareness.

Janice is the third restaurant listed.

The plot thickens...

(without using flour, of course)

edit: the last line was brilliantly awkward... now it's just plain brilliant

[tommy]

The plot thickens...  

(without using flour, of course)

and i find myself, yet again, being

1) informed

2) perceptive

2) correct

3) brilliant

4) unable to number correctly.

is it really a surprise to you folk? oy.

[TCD]

Saddle River Inn?  Yours and Menton's are the first bad things I've ever heard about the place.  Ever. 

Seranade?  I won't comment.  But I have eaten there.

Saddle River Inn is one of the most overrated restaurants in the state in my experience -- the cuisine is fine (although uninspired), but I have found the service, generally, to be rude.

Ah Serenade. I WILL comment. Two-star food at four-star prices. Heavy, greasy and unsophisticated as compared to places like The Ryland Inn and Stage House. James is a pretender with a big chip on his shoulder and speaks poorly of his competitors. Nancy does a very nice job with the front of the house.

[jdetal]

If I ask a waiter to find out if there is flour or soy used in the calf's liver or chicken dishes, why would the kitchen (SRI or anywhere) not be prepared to answer that question? (I did not ask about gluten free - you are correct it is not a restaurant's responsibility to know about this although many chefs are very informed about various allergies). The issue I am raising has nothing to do with allergies it is about service. Does service include answering reasonable questions like what type of oil is used for frying or in the salad dressing? Does service include offering a dish without the sauce or with a different sauce whether for me or for finicky children?

I asked Janice if she had gluten free dishes or a gluten free menu having read about her award from some gluten free group. She said she had neither. She did tell me which dishes had no flour nor soy. This was a month ago and if Janice now added a gluten free menu I'll find out on my next visit.

[tommy]

I asked Janice if she had gluten free dishes or a gluten free menu having read about her award from some gluten free group. She said she had neither. She did tell me which dishes had no flour nor soy.  This was a month ago and if Janice now added a gluten free menu I'll find out on my next visit.

perhaps they have a new approach. but in my discussions with her and her husband and her staff, i don't think that's the case. did you like the upscale atmosphere of janice?

[ngatti]

If I ask a waiter to find out if there is flour or soy used in the calf's liver or chicken dishes, why would the kitchen (SRI or anywhere) not be prepared to answer that question? (I did not ask about gluten free - you are correct it is not a restaurant's responsibility to know about this although many chefs are very informed about various allergies). The issue I am raising has nothing to do with allergies it is about service. Does service include  answering reasonable questions like what type of oil is used for frying or in the salad dressing? Does service include offering a dish without the sauce or with a different sauce whether for me or for finicky children?

I asked Janice if she had gluten free dishes or a gluten free menu having read about her award from some gluten free group. She said she had neither. She did tell me which dishes had no flour nor soy.  This was a month ago and if Janice now added a gluten free menu I'll find out on my next visit.

Now you're obfuscating the issue with hypotheticals.

You've now after three posts given us much more complete context to work with. Let me start by saying that if you walk into a restaurant and after being seated inform your waiter that you are gluten intolerant and soy allergic, but you would still like to order the calves liver (ie), "do you think the dish can be prepared without those ingredients?", and you were summarily refused any and all cooperation with your problem, then YES! I agree with you. Rude and uncaring service. Peiod. Full stop.

Now after having said that, I must say that I did not get that from any of your posts. What I'm getting is that you engaged the waiter and then the Maitre'D in a game of twenty questions regarding the ingredients on a menu. This is an important distinction. I also want to add that this took place (according to your post) years ago. That is to say, before food allergies/intolerances were up on our culinary radars and in the middle of service I might add.

At this level of dining I'm hard put to lay constraints on the kitchen *unless*, I called ahead. Lack of prior arrangement would be unthinkable, particularly if there were *serious* dietary issues involved. To not do so is just plain silly. If you haven't called ahead then enjoy your plain salad and eau poached chicken breast and consider anything else you get a gift from God. I might add that were you dining as my guest or on my reservation and did not inform me of dietary restrictions beforehand then I can assure you it would be the last time you would dine with me or use me for the res.

But I digress. Let me add that dining in a destination restaurant places some responsibility upon the diner. That is, if the diner wants to attempt to enjoy the experience to the fullest. Anything can go wrong and too often does, and this incident is something that may have been handled in a better way by the waitstaff, but certainly could have easily been avoided altogether by dropping a dime.

Food at this level isn't easily changed on the fly, particularly with a full dining room as this place usually has. I wasn't in the room and am not privy to all that may have taken place. Were you treated rudely, or was your request gently refused? Did you make yourself into a PIA, thereby assuring that your request wouldn't be honored? Did you actually make a request? It seems that you sent all scurrying about looking for lists of ingredients rather than actually try to order something plain and with sauce on the side. Instead it seems as if you were angling for the chef to cook something special for you without said ingredients. All on the fly in what is usually a pretty crowded dining room. I don't know if I blame the Maitre'D for attempting to dissuade you from the giddyup. Sorry but it sounds that way. Lots of variables.

I can't offer any advice and my own experiences wouldn't help you as I rarely dine at this level without an insiders reservation. I can say that anyone can get bad food and waitstaff can have bad nights, even act inexcusably rude. But I generally always find a way to enjoy myself and anything I find wrong are ususally hair-splitting quibbles. Cold uncaring service upon exiting? The first thing that crosses my mind is how much tip did the person leave?

YMMV and probably does.

It doesn't make you a bad person. This is a discussion board after all.

Nick

[menton1]

How did "Going French in NJ" transmogrify into "Gluten-free Dining"? Seems that this should have been a new topic instead of a reply.

On the original topic, is it true that Stephen's in North Bergen has closed? That is sad-- Is that maybe because of the wrong location?

[Rosie]

Stephens has closed. New owners will be opening a restaurant soon with a different name. I'll post the information on Table Hopping With Rosie when they open.

[tommy]

How did "Going French in NJ" transmogrify into "Gluten-free Dining"?  Seems that this should have been a new topic instead of a reply.  

that's the way it goes on the internet.

On the original topic, is it true that Stephen's in North Bergen has closed?  That is sad--  Is that maybe because of the wrong location?

i went to stephen's once, about 6 yrs ago. i thought it was rather good. as i was leaving, i witnessed a couple of local kids walking down the sidewalk, and for no reason, kick a metal garbage can into a parked car. i never returned, and i'm pretty sure that was the reason.