Diwan

[Wilfrid]

Fair enough. I'd happily eat the venison chops again.

[Fat Guy]

I think the phrase "by far the best in New York" is key.

I emphatically reject this notion of "it's the best in New York, which doesn't mean anything." That is simply not the experience I've had at Diwan on three visits, and enough knowledgeable people (especially Eric Asimov, Gael Greene, and several eGulleters of unquestionable good taste) have given the place strong enough positives to take it out of that equivocal range. I'll stand by "excellent by the standards of the best Indian restaurants outside of India," at least with regard to several dishes (the kitchen is not uniform in strength across the full range of the menu). I think I've eaten at enough of the generally agreed-upon favorites, in enough countries, to have a good picture of that market. It's fairly clear that Diwan is not consistently providing cuisine at that level, but it has provided it to me and, I assume, to many others.

[Suzanne F]

Soba and I were offered -- and took -- the tasting menu when we were there a couple of weeks ago. It is generally available. I would not take it again, though, for several reasons. The most important is that it is just too much food. Even without the little extras that the chef sent us. Second reason is that there are still many dishes I haven't tried, that I want to (tandoori and regular). And finally, as much as I adore the food there, alas, it can be inconsistent. Rather more than a restaurant should be to merit the praise I initially gave it. Don't get me wrong, it's incredibly good sometimes; but at other times it's just very good, and sometimes just all right. Or all three, even on the same visit.

Chef Hemant's tandoori dishes are always spot on. But the "cooked" dishes can vary wildly. Case in point: the crispy okra. At the banquet, heavenly. The second time, not as crisp, and just okay (that was a huge disappointment to me). Third time, back to heaven, or pretty close. Ditto the crab beggar's purse.

But on the whole, even with the inconsistencies, Diwan provides a taste experience I have not had elsewhere. That's what keeps me going back.

[SobaAddict70]

Funny I thought that the okra was great the first time (not the banquet, just a dinner with SuzanneF and three other e-gulleteers), and a bit salty the second time (just a bit salty but not enough to warrant mentioning until now).

Oh well.

The venison chops were ok for me. A bit on the mushy side tho. I should have gone with the lamb chops, but oh well.

I didn't think too highly of their biryani. On the other hand, their breads were amazing, along with their apps and roasted paneer. I don't buy that if Hemant attends to us, its better. I mean, he came by and said "hi" to us while we were there. If Diwan is inconsistent, and I'm not saying that it is, since this was only the second time for me and some of the dishes (i.e., the biryani, the venison chops) were first timers for me, then I didn't notice it. Perhaps a third visit at least is warranted.

That said, anyway, it'll be some time before I head out to Diwan again -- I'm on a Japanese food binge for the next few weeks -- Jewel Bako next week, Sugiyama end of the month. Chola, on the other hand, is something I think we should give a try. I haven't yet been there, only had takeout from there. Their lemon rice gives Diwan's a run for its money, and that's saying a lot.

Cheers,

Soba

PS.

Edited April 1, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[funcook]

Chola, on the other hand, is something I think we should give a try.  I haven't yet been there, only had takeout from there.  Their lemon rice gives Diwan's a run for its money, and that's saying a lot. 

Cheers,

Soba

PS.

Was there the other night at Chola and please do not give importance to the lemon rice, all the other food was not at all apreciated by my company at all. At chola I felt like I was doing them a favor.

Love - Fun

[macrosan]

...And finally, as much as I adore the food there, alas, it can be inconsistent.  Rather more than a restaurant should be to merit the praise I initially gave it.

This raises an interesting issue about eGullet and its role in "restaurant reviewing". I think Suzanne is wrong in criticizing herself, retrospectively, for initially having given a "rave" review because it now appears that maybe doesn't merit it on the basis of inconsistency. I think that what we do here is to write about restaurants as we find them, most of us just as "amateurs" writing about a single visit, basing our conclusions on our own personal preferences and experience. When someone else posts a similar conclusion, that's just one reinforcement; if it's a contrary view, then the jury stays out for a while. After a while, after several different people have posted, a consensus opinion starts to appear. That, surely, is the beauty of eGullet. Each of us will attach different weight to particular opinions, because we get to know who the experts are in particular fields, and because we start to discover (by trial and error) whose palate accords with our own.

Almost all of the initial posts about Diwan arose out of the initial eGullet banquet, attended by over 30 people who definitely produced a strong consensus that this was an excellent restaurant. That was "excellent" by the standards of Indian restaurants in New York, or Indian restaurants anywhere in the world, or even restaurants in general anywhere in the world. Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that this means that Diwan is a Michelin star restaurant !!! Since the banquet, the reviews have been mixed and it absolutely must be the case (given the people who have submitted those reviews) that this demonstrates inconsistent standards in the restaurant, and not inconsistent standards of the reviewers And the great thing is that we now all know what to expect if we go to eat there. We are forewarned that certain dishes may not be up to scratch, that maybe if Chef Hemant is absent the standard will drop, or maybe just at random we will get a sub-par meal.

I'm willing to take that risk when I next go there, but I am delighted that eGullet has enabled me to be aware that I will be taking a risk. I see nothing remotely wrong with this process --- it's the way it should be !

[Orik]

I'm willing to take that risk when I next go there, but I am delighted that eGullet has enabled me to be aware that I will be taking a risk. I see nothing remotely wrong with this process --- it's the way it should be !

It is also fairly amusing.

Best in New York, definitely! The question is whether it's the best in North America. Vij's in Vancouver is the only competition on this continent, of the places I've sampled.

And I have no reason to doubt that report. However, if anybody ate the food I ate and said the same thing, I'd call that person crazy.

It's fairly clear that Diwan is not consistently providing cuisine at that level, but it has provided it to me and, I assume, to many others.

I stand by my initial assesment:

If they would serve me their tandoori lamb chops in the style of soup kitchen international, I would still be a very happy man 

Seriously, the tandoori dishes are just extraordinary and as already mentioned, so are the shrimp and crab appetizers. There are a few items that probably should just be taken off the menu or executed with more care, like the Rogan Josh, which I tasted once to find cubes of very dry meat in an uninteresting sauce. I think the service is acceptable at these price levels, but Sivan says she finds their habit of only addressing her through me very annoying. I wonder how a single female diner would be treated.

[Fat Guy]

it absolutely must be the case (given the people who have submitted those reviews) that this demonstrates inconsistent standards in the restaurant, and not inconsistent standards of the reviewers

That's certainly the most likely explanation, although neither Orik nor I has experienced much in the way of this apparent inconsistency. And he has been more times than any of us. In addition, it's not as though the published reviews -- which I assume were based on multiple visits -- have pointed to inconsistency as a major flaw at Diwan. I didn't dine at the banquet, and the restaurant has been as consistent for me as it has been for Orik. I'm having trouble figuring out what he finds so funny, but I'm always happy to provide people with a little extra happiness.

I think that what we do here is to write about restaurants as we find them, most of us just as "amateurs" writing about a single visit, basing our conclusions on our own personal preferences and experience.

The professional/amateur distinction doesn't strike me as relevant. It's more a question of seriousness, and most people who post on eGullet are quite serious about their analyses of restaurant meals -- more so, in fact, than many professional critics.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I agree with FG on this one. On the various threads where we discussed Diwan and other Indian/Indian style restaurants in the city, my comments weren't intended to criticize the restaurant for their performance. Over four visits, I have found them consistantly good. But there do seem to be many complaints of inconsistancy.

[Wilfrid]

Experts will confirm that I actually wasn't planning to mention my visit to Diwan, as I guessed it would provoke a passionate response, and that some people would tell me either that I was wrong or that my meal wasn't typical. I went ahead only because, looking at some of the opinions on this thread, I saw they were so out of line with my experience that I felt not to post would be a disservice to other members.

I have only had one meal at Diwan. Maybe it was the only average meal they have ever served. Average it was, with the chicken dish being particularly poor, and the general level typical of a decent high street tandoori restaurant in the UK. That was my meal; nobody else's.

The interesting question, if there is one here at all, is not whether I had the meal I had, but how a restaurant which can perform at the level described by some here, can serve such a meal on a not particularly busy weekend evening.

Edited April 1, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[Fat Guy]

The interesting question, if there is one here at all, is not whether I had the meal I had, but how a restaurant which can perform at the level described by some here, can serve such a meal on a not particularly busy weekend evening.

One possibility is that there's only one competent cook in the house. But I wouldn't be too surprised in any event: if you can have a bad meal at Lespinasse, you can have a bad meal at Diwan. The reality is that you can have a bad meal anywhere, even at a restaurant with three Michelin stars. The question isn't whether or not there will be inconsistency at any given restaurant; the question is how much.

By the way, do you perceive that anybody has told you you were wrong or that your meal wasn't representative?

[Wilfrid]

Wrong, no. Unrepresentative, most certainly.* Maybe it was, but one isn't going to make multiple visits to a restaurant before posting a report here, unless the paychecks start arriving with greater frequency.

"(N)either Orik nor I has experienced much in the way of this apparent inconsistency. And he has been more times than any of us. In addition, it's not as though the published reviews -- which I assume were based on multiple visits -- have pointed to inconsistency as a major flaw at Diwan."

[Fat Guy]

Unrepresentative, most certainly.

Unrepresentative of what?

Assuming you're talking about the general notion of inconsistency as a stand-in for representativeness, I don't see how you can draw such a conclusion from that quote, especially when you cut off the part where I say inconsistency is the most likely explanation. In addition, I've agreed with the inconsistency proposition in several other posts. I have not, however, experienced it first hand. Nor have several others.

[Jason Perlow]

There is of course the matter of taste being subjective, which is certainly possible in Wilfrid's case. And not something in my opinion that is easily refutable. If you don't like something -- or don't think it compares up to other stuff you just don't.

This old Chowhound thread from 1999 that I pointed out yesterday on the New Yorkan topic in which Rachel and I pretty much said that Jim Leff's favorite Korean restaurant -- which was apparently favored by critics as well, much like Diwan has -- was nothing special, we got pounded for it. I just didn't think it was worth schlepping to Flushing from Jersey, thats all.

[Fat Guy]

I want to be special, damnit!

[Wilfrid]

(Deep sigh). Yes - you, Suzanne and Soba have mentioned inconsistency; Orik has not found any. But have I been told that my meal was unrepresentative? Not wishing to be perceived as distorting by partial quotation, I append the following, with my emphasis:

"The tasting menus I've had at Diwan were an order of magnitude superior to anything else being served in New York, and fully on par with the best I've had anywhere: subtle, complex, elegantly prepared, cooked to an appealing level of doneness, etc., like the best Indian cuisine I've sampled in Singapore, Vancouver, and London. Too many hyper-experienced and well-traveled gourmets have offered enthusiastic testimony in favor of Diwan for this to be a fluke."

"I emphatically reject this notion of 'it's the best in New York, which doesn't mean anything.' That is simply not the experience I've had at Diwan on three visits, and enough knowledgeable people (especially Eric Asimov, Gael Greene, and several eGulleters of unquestionable good taste) have given the place strong enough positives to take it out of that equivocal range."

"One possibility is that there's only one competent cook in the house. But I wouldn't be too surprised in any event: if you can have a bad meal at Lespinasse, you can have a bad meal at Diwan. The reality is that you can have a bad meal anywhere, even at a restaurant with three Michelin stars. The question isn't whether or not there will be inconsistency at any given restaurant; the question is how much."

I had the impression that such comments suggested that, despite reports of inconsistency, my experience at Diwan was not representative or typical or general. If, on the other hand, you think my experience was representative or typical or general, I wonder why you didn't just let my original post stand.

I knew I shouldn't have posted any comments on this meal.

Edited April 1, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[Jason Perlow]

As I said, taste is subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion. In this case there probably is no wrong -- and it is very possible the restaurant is inconsistent. Personally, I've only eaten there once, in a small group before the banquet -- but I think Rachel mentioned to me that even at the the highly lauded eGullet banquet that certain dishes were slightly off when she was there.

Edited April 1, 2003 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Fat Guy]

I knew I shouldn't have posted any comments on this meal.

I think you're getting wrapped up in a self-fulfilling prophecy, wherein you can't see that we're all just trying to figure out what went wrong with so many meals at Diwan. I still don't even understand the notion of representativeness to which you're referring, or how any of the proudly boldfaced selections from your post bear on the notion. How would we even begin to measure that? Why does it matter? Who has called anything unrepresentative? All I see is discussion of consistency.

Edited April 1, 2003 by Fat Guy (log)

[Wilfrid]

By the way, do you perceive that anybody has told you you were wrong or that your meal wasn't representative?

I was answering your question, in which the term "representative" was first introduced. I was guessing what you meant by it. I did perceive the message that since I had the meal I had (and no-one has told me I didn't), while you and other eGulleters and Gael Greene and Eric Asimovc had far superior meals, my experience was not representative of the restaurant's cuisine. Maybe I guessed wrong. Maybe it was a rhetorical question.

I'd be perfectly happy not to bicker about the semantics.

Jason sort of implies another interesting question. If you and I ate the same meal at Diwan, I wonder if we'd reach the same conclusions about it?

[Fat Guy]

I'd be perfectly happy not to bicker about the semantics.

That would not be representative of you.

(Note: you introduced the term, not me. )

[Wilfrid]

Did not. Did so. Did not...

[tommy]

Jason sort of implies another interesting question.  If you and I ate the same meal at Diwan, I wonder if we'd reach the same conclusions about it?

ghee, is taste subjective?

[Fat Guy]

Did not.  Did so.  Did not...

I've got you by 13 minutes. There's no escape!

[Wilfrid]

ghee, is taste subjective?

Tommy, please don't try to lead yet another thread down that blind alley.

There's no escape!

Think again, mastermind! (exit, cackling fiendishly...)

Edited April 1, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[g.johnson]

It's not a question of subjectivity. Toby and I have both posted on things we liked at the banquet but found poor on a second visit.

Edit: And I don't want to see any smart arse philosopher question whether I was sure I really liked it on the first visit or whether I was really eating the same stuff.

Edited April 1, 2003 by g.johnson (log)