Morals in the biz.

[Alchemist]

So what would you NOT do for money in a professional sense. We have all seen movie stars sell themselves out. What is selling out in “the life”? Where does integrity bow to the dollar? Is there a middle ground? Example, you could bring brilliant food to 10,000 or really good food to 1,000,000 that might lead to 100,000 of them seeking better food? Which is better?

And as I am in the cocktail game I ask myself these questions all the time. If I you the chance to change the menu at Applebee’s to something much, much better than what it is, should you do it? If it crippled your career? Or if it crippled your career but made you filthy rich?

I am dealing mostly in hypothetical here, but if you want to chime in on an offer you didn’t take because it was below you go ahead.

Does working for an evil corporation make you evil? How does one go to restaurant heaven? And what does that look like?

Is there a deal beaker for you? We have all worked way too hard for not enough money, what makes a job worth it?

[KatieLoeb]

I see you're in a particularly philosophical mood tonight, Toby. What brought this on, dare I ask?

Having pretty much always worked too hard to not enough money, I'm not sure if there's a linear relationship between earning what you deserve to and with what falls below the line of acceptable. I suppose relying on poor quality commercially bottled ingredients rather than making them myself where possible is something I wouldn't want to do anymore. Not sure if that will get me into Restaurant Heaven or not. I think Restaurant Heaven looks a lot like many of my favorite haunts. Low lights, plenty of very comfortable stools, good bar snacks, big ice, handsome attentive barkeeps that flirt and flatter me endlessly. I'd hope you and some of my other fave folks would be tending bar there, in any case.

Selling out to get rich would be completely acceptable. I'm just waiting for the right offer from some deep pocketed corporation. Maybe TGIFriday's needs their signature cocktail list reworked? If they can cough up money for Guy Fieri, some Katie Kocktails ought to be worth at least six figures.

[Chris Amirault]

It seems to me that there are at least a couple of moral levels here.

One is the "money is its own justification" angle, wherein a chef, mixologist, or other culinary professional cashes out because the profession itself eats the young. Few pensions, little to no health care in a punishing work environment, and lousy pay make cashing out legitimate to many (including me).

Then there's the integrity piece, which introduces another layer. It's notoriously difficult to define "integrity," and I'd want to get your own definition (and not your, or Applebee's, publicist's definition). But it seems to me pretty easy to make solid arguments founded on reaching larger numbers of people with higher quality food, whether it's at Applebee's or in the frozen food section.

I always wonder about the basis for sell-out criticism. After all, the biz is serving food and drink in a hospitable manner in our imperfect world, and not the performance of pure, true, and good art. Given that, I have a hard time understanding how any culinary professional would be morally culpable simply trying to provide more of those things to more people at broader price points (and accepting a necessary reduction in quality and control). Marco Pierre White and a few others may be able to claim that high horse with some justification, but to me it's pretty hard for the rest of the world to pull off legitimately.

[Alchemist]

Integrity is very hard to define, but like pornography you know it when you see it. Or maybe more importantly when you don’t.

There is something to be said about the depth of the sell out. Guy Fieri at TGIF’s is one thing, Keller doing the same thing would be totally different.

There is also the phenomenon of the “indi band”, where you love them when you can see them at your local bar, but when they make it, sign with a big label, and start playing areas, they suck. But that is probably where they wanted to be all along. They wanted to be paid handsomely for producing their art. So an amazing chef is doing wonderful things in their little store front restaurant, but when they franchise and you can get their food in every airport across the nation, they suck. Is that fair?

I have a friend you says “it’s not selling out it’s buying in”. If you have spent 20-30 years doing back breaking work, honing your art, and you get a chance for a big score is that wrong?

In case anybody is wondering, Neither I nor anyone I know has been approached by Chili’s to redo their cocktail menu in exchange for a million dollars, and their mortal soul.

Toby

[Jakea222]

Guy Fieri - did he have a lot to sell out? I like his show just don't like him. But if I saw Keller do that it would kind of drop his image - Guys had no where to go - as far as me - I had an exec job before becoming a chef so I went down in pay but the passion is where it is all at for me - if McDonalds approached me about a project and I saw a "passionate" angle - I would jump - But I am not Keller either.

[Alchemist]

Guy Fieri - did he have a lot to sell out?  I like his show just don't like him.  But if I saw Keller do that it would kind of drop his image - Guys had no where to go - as far as me - I had an exec job before becoming a chef so I went down in pay but the passion is where it is all at for me - if McDonalds approached me about a project and I saw a "passionate" angle - I would jump - But  I am not Keller either.

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That is what I was trying to say about the DEPTH of the sell out. Guy's show is about dives and diners...Keller well he has further to fall, because he is so revered.

But what if Chef X (this is a Hypothetical so we will deal with it that way) turned around a chain like TGIapplei's and brought fresh good, obviously not stellar, 250 dollar a meal food but, good food to the masses. What if he raised the bar for hundred's of thousands, or millions? It's fantastic when someone can do that for thousands of sophisticated rich people, but how about truely changing the way that the average American eats/drinks? And Chef X gets filthy rich doing it?

Toby

[eje]

Interesting article along these lines in the Chronicle this week regarding bartenders.

Bay Area's best mixologists leaving bars for brands, Camper English

"The first time I noticed that bartenders leaving bars to work for brands could be an issue was in London; however, it's happening everywhere," says Simon Ford, a former United Kingdom bartender and current New York-based manager of brand ambassadors for Plymouth Gin and Absolut Vodka. "It appears that as soon as someone becomes an industry superstar, a brand company is willing to employ them and send them around the world to represent."

But I dunno.

Ultimately, most of the real lessons I've learned in cooking come from direct interaction and observation. It's a social and verbal culture.

How much control does x celebrity chef have over all the end branches of TJMcFridays? Maybe the food is slightly better for the customers at the spigot, but what lessons are being learned among the staff? Is any of the chef's knowledge being passed down along the chain? Or is the staff just microwaving different food?

[Alchemist]

That is very interesting. I am also seeing this more and more here in NYC, and in Chicago. Serious brands are eschewing babes in low cut blouses for mixologists in dapper threads and crazy facial hair. What is this world coming to?

In full disclosure I consult for Diageo. I believe that do good work for them without being a shill.

I cannot endorse everything or my opinion means nothing. I am not a critic so I don’t feel the need to bash the things I don’t like. I have a few things to say about cranberry juice cocktail off the gun let me tell you. So I try to get behind the products I love and not say anything about the products I don’t. Is this selling out? Buying in?

I have been in the service industry for many years, and it is a young persons game. There is no way I could work 6-7 days a week 12 hours a day in a kitchen or behind a bar. My knees and elbows would give out.

So what to do? It makes sense to find ways to disseminate all the knowledge I have garnered in a life time in the service industry.

Toby

[Chris Amirault]

Guy Fieri - did he have a lot to sell out?  I like his show just don't like him.  But if I saw Keller do that it would kind of drop his image -

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We talked that one through a bit over here.

[RAHiggins1]

A good example of that would be Michael Symon. I've never been to Cincinatti, I only read about it in Ruhlman's book. But Basically Symon has been paying his dues for a long time. Was it a sellout when he entered and won "Next Iron Chef" on FN? Or was it a sellout when he took over "Dinner Impossible? Who is running his place now that he's off the line? I want to try Symon's food, but I'm just not sure how much of it is his anymore. Besh, however, is doing great things in New Orleans, he obviously benefitted from his stint with FN, but since they don't own his soul, did he dodge selling out?

[eje]

Not ever having had enough success at anything to be offered any substantial remuneration for a "sell out" I'm not sure how I'd react if offered.

(Hello? Buffalo Trace, have you noticed how much I use your products in the "Stomping Through the Savoy" Topic? Sigh, still no offers.)

I can understand that after a certain age and a certain amount of time, being on your feet for 10-12 hours and working as hard and as intensely as have to in food service starts to lose its appeal.

Not to mention the working conditions, poor pay, and lack of insurance.

Morals are all relative choices. What might seem like a sell out to me might be a choice made out of necessity or because of a driving desire.

If a persons goal for getting into the business is to become a celebrity chef, then seeing them on TV doesn't seem that far out of character.

Edited September 24, 2008 by eje (log)

[NancyH]

A good example of that would be Michael Symon. I've never been to Cincinatti, I only read about it in Ruhlman's book. But Basically Symon has been paying his dues for a long time. Was it a sellout when he entered and won "Next Iron Chef" on FN? Or was it a sellout when he took over "Dinner Impossible? Who is running his place now that he's off the line? I want to try Symon's food, but I'm just not sure how much of it is his anymore. Besh, however, is doing great things in New Orleans, he obviously benefitted from his stint with FN, but since they don't own his soul, did he dodge selling out?

←

I have been to Symon's two Cleveland restaurants many times. He has an awesome staff in each place, which executes his vision even when he is not there. Chef Matt Harlan at Lolita, and Chef Derek Clayton, at Lola, are fantastic chefs in their own right.

And Michael is at the restaurants, most of the time. In fact, on many nights, he'll be in both places for part of the night. And, when he is there, he is more often than not cooking (or if at Lola, working the pass), rather than schmoozing. We enjoyed our Heartland Gathering Friday dinner at Lola last year, and even though Michael was off shooting Next Iron Chef, we had an awesome meal.

So -no worries. And I don't think Michael has sold out -he does have a perfect persona for television.

[eje]

Part of the criteria for a great chef (or bar manager) has to be putting into place a motivated staff and systems so his/her vision for the restaurant (or bar) is executed whether s/he is there or not.

Ultimately it shouldn't matter whether Mario Batali (or Audrey Saunders) is in the house at the time of a patrons visit.

It's unfortunate, but this does tend to get taken a lot more seriously at restaurants than at bars.

[cax77uk]

Hi all,

I think it relly has to come down to what your agenda is. If your aim is to pass on some passion and enthusiasm and instill a philosophy of great service then I don´t see anything wrong with doing this for a global brand to have a wider impact.

However if your just taking the money because you feel that you´ve been shafted one to many times and it´s time to take some back that is something very different.

Rightly or wrongly hospitality is an industry where most people want maximum return for minimum investmnent.

I´ve worked for independent operators and spent some time as a GM for TGI´s and i´d like to think that my philosophy was fundamentally the same in both. Sure it´s nice to only use the freshest local produce but if this isnt combined with a great service attitude it´s wasted.

I would rather go to a tgi mcfarley´s and have great service than to a michelin star place where I get surly staff condascending me.

It all comes down to the reality vs expectation.

end rant ;-)

RM

[Jakea222]

I don't know anymore with the stock market guys making money and now getting no slap for being andmaking stupid deals and we have to come running - I guess if I saw a chance to make some money and comprimise my pricipals IN FOOD ONLY - I guess I could do it too.

[prasantrin]

How does Gavin Kaysen (who competed at the Bocuse d'Or and in The Next Iron Chef) touting Uncle Ben's Rice rank on the sell-out scale?

“Uncle Ben’s Rice is unmatched when it comes to consistency, quality and flavor of the product, and the product is what turns a home chef into a gourmet chef.”

- Gavin Kaysen

For that matter, how does the US Bocuse d'Or Team being sponsored by Uncle Ben's rank?