Risotteria

[Fat Guy]

But New York City can probably support a popular risotto culture in a way that no other American city could. We are chock full of effete-Northern-Italian sympathizers. Why do you think "Northern Italian cuisine" is now the Italian-restaurant standard in Manhattan? You don't see many new places opening up along the lines of Carmine's. It's all "Northern" these days.

[Rachel Perlow]

FYI - the restaurant has its own website. I've sent them an email link to this thread, in case they feel like reading along. And they are, of course, welcome to respond.

[jaybee]

I think the phrase "gourmet comfort food" sums up the problem. The mass market has a preconception of rice and its role in a meal. The most common anchor points for rice are in or with Chinese food and as a side dish for certain types of protein. Risotto doesn't fit those preconceptions. The idea of a bowl of rice for a meal is strange to most Americans. Paella and other rice dishes may seep in to the mass through the Hispanic populations and the restaurants that serve them.

Remember, it was only in the last fifteen years or so that spaghetti became "pasta" and found its pride of place on the table. Before that it was seen as cheap belly filler for kids and working class families. Henry Lambert (Pasta & Cheese) really sparked the packaged "fresh" pasta and gourmet sauce business. Nestlé bought his business in 1990 (with my suggestion). Hershey, Kraft and others were bidding for it and Henry got over $50 million). Pasta, with all kinds of high class toppings, is now a staple on restaurant menus and has translated down to low price mass restaurant business as well.

People are not very adventurous when it comes to trying new foods. My experience working with the major food companies (Nestlé, Kraft, Unilever, Hormel) as well as lots of smaller boutiquey companies is that "exotic" foods for which people have no reference point are rejected by the majority. So it may take another ten years before risotto makes it to the mainstream (if it ever does).

[Fat Guy]

Also, it's not really meant to be a whole meal, is it? I mean, it's traditionally an appetizer/primi, just like pasta. Americans, however, took pasta and made big portions of it into a main course, or at least that's how I understand the history. So I guess risotto could follow the same path.

As I've said before, we're in New York where risotto-consciousness and approval seem to be quite high, so I don't see an inherent limitation arising from the exoticness of the food itself. I think it just has to be sold the right way.

[tommy]

Plotnicki, when you say it's not real risotto, what do you mean?

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!!!....and they're off!

[Wilfrid]

The UK experience with risotto seems to have been the complete opposite. It was marketed, with some success, back in the 1970s as a home convenience food. Every kitchen had packs of risotto (disgusting I know) stacked up alongside the Lean Cuisines, boil-in-a-bag curries and cans of Homepride gourmet sauces. Real risotto has had, therefore, to shake of a reputation of being somewhat common; on a par with spaghetti bolognaise; rather than "snotty".

[chowbabe]

I like Risotteria and they always seem quite busy when I stop by. If you go, however, stick with the risotto. The panini are a tad greasy for my taste.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Why does everybody want to argue "shoulda, coulda, woulda?" It hasn't and there are probably loads of reasons why. But if it did, which course in the meal is it supposed to replace? In the French dining strategy there is no starch course per se. And in the Italian dining strategy there is pasta to compete with. So I'm not sure where there is an opening for risotto? And as to "elite" Northern Italian restaurants, I think that the only place in Italy that is fanatical about risotto is Lombardy where they grow the rice. In all the other regions that surround Lombardy, risotto competes for diner's attention with pasta and polenta. In fact the types of Northern Italian restaurants that open in NYC aren't really Milanese in style, but some sort of conglomeration of the "Northern Italian style" along with what could be termed "continental cuisine." A true Milanese tratorria is very Germanic in style. If you went to one of the old ones like da Berti or dela Pesa, the menu is full of things like goulash, stuffed cabbage, and other items that wouldn't be immediately recognizeable as Italian cuisine.

[Wilfrid]

That last bit's interesting, Steve. Are any of those old-style places still around?

Kind of mirror image of what you find in southern Germany - a sudden appearance of noodles, olive oil and such like in the cooking.

[Bux]

Fat Guy - You should know that my opinions and prejudices on topics like these have been formed

Ya hear Fat Guy! Now don't go looking for trouble by trying to remake what's already been formed.

I like this observation though.

... immigrants to America came from predominantly wheat growing nations and the starch in their meal was wheat and not rice.

Do you suppose Italians outnumber Aisans and latinos together? My guess is that most Europeans ate their wheat in the form of bread and their starch as potatoes whether they came from Ireland, England, Germany or Scandinavia.

I also think that risotto is labor intensive in a way that pasta isn't and that deters people from making it at home very often. I think paella suffers from the same prejudices that risotto suffers from.

I think most Americans understand they can serve pasta if they can boil water and open a jar. Those rice dishes require cooking.

[jaybee]

Why does everybody want to argue "shoulda, coulda, woulda?"

Why you sanctimonious hypocrite! We aren't arguing, we're discussing something that is of interest to at least some of us. Why a food is or is not accepted is a pretty fundamental to eGullet's topics. You seem to have no problem arguing any fucking topic that suits your fancy. Why do you want to censure our discussion here?

[Fat Guy]

sanctimonious hypocrite

Plotnicki, you want to grab this as your signature line, or can I use it?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrid - Sure they are both in business. I ate at Antica Tratorria de le Pesa

(which they affectionately call "dela Pesa") a few years ago. It's sort of like a Pete's Tavern type of place but with good, wholesome Milanese tratorria food. I think I had a veal stew for dinner after some risotto. But in that environment I think you would notice the similarity to southern Austrian and German cuisine. I mean starting with a Veal Milanese which is nothing more then Schnitzel. If I lived in Milan I'm sure I would eat there all the time. They also had a really good and reasonably priced wine list with wines from Gaja, Giacosa etc.

Bux - Just because I formed an opinion based on experience doesn't mean it isn't right. And when I say "immigrants," I am limiting my comment to European immigrants and not including Chinese etc. And when I say "starch," I don't mean starch in all of it's forms, I mean starch in the form of a course that revolves around starch whether it be a Minestre or an Entree.

Jaybee - Cool your jets. I'm not advocating not discussing risotto, I'm just commenting on people not being realistic as to how popular it could have become. Everybody who like risotto wants to say that "if they just did this, or if they just marketed it that way instead, it would be more popular." Well I think they tried all of that already and it didn't catch on the way they hoped it would. And the reason it didn't catch on has to do with the people eating the food, not the people selling it.

[Wilfrid]

If I lived in Milan I'm sure I would eat there all the time.

Darn, Steve, I misread your post as implying they were in New York. Oh well, another day maybe...

[macrosan]

If I lived in Milan I'm sure I would eat there all the time.

Well I guess it would be quite a trek to Gramercy Tavern and the French Laundry

Hey, I've just noticed something strange. When you quote someone, the time printed in your post is their local time, not your own. Ain't that cute ?

[jaybee]

I'm not advocating not discussing risotto, I'm just commenting on people not being realistic as to how popular it could have become. Everybody who like risotto wants to say that "if they just did this, or if they just marketed it that way instead, it would be more popular." Well I think they tried all of that already and it didn't catch on the way they hoped it would. And the reason it didn't catch on has to do with the people eating the food, not the people selling it.

Certain things take lots of time to be "discovered." Today everyone thinks $30 and up for a bottle of vodka is normal, but it took many (10 at least) years for Absolut to become the standard bearer of vodka to the point where they sold 1 million cases annually. Cognac is an example of a status drink that will never be "mass" because most people don't like the taste. With risotto, as I said, i don;t think people have a reference point to know what it is or how/when to eat it. (I think we agree here). I found the Chinese were confused when Hormel introduced American style bacon because they didn't understand when or how to eat it. It is not intuititvely clear where it fit into their meal structure or habits. That kind of thing take years or huge amounts of "education."

I worked on a high quality brand of surimi, and the biggest problem was that people didn't quickly see how or when they should eat the stuff. Give them a sample to try, they'd say "delicious." They might even buy a pack. But unless they know how or when to serve it or to what it was meant to replace, forget it. It is a staple in Japanese restaurants, but that's far from the mass market. It has a big orthodox Jewish following because it is "kosher crabmeat." It is the mystery meat in "seafood salads", but beyond that, forget it.

Look at Nutella--the chocolate/hazelnut spread that Italians go nuts over (pun intended). It is as ubiquitoous and used as often as peanut butter in the US. Try to sell it here? Forget it. People don't know if it's candy, a snack, a sandwich spread. The chocolate confuses them. So it can be marketed, if it is done right and the company has a lot of money and patience. But these days, no business can afford that luxury.

[Rachel Perlow]

If I lived in Milan I'm sure I would eat there all the time.

Well I guess it would be quite a trek to Gramercy Tavern and the French Laundry

Hey, I've just noticed something strange. When you quote someone, the time printed in your post is their local time, not your own. Ain't that cute ?

Actually it is your local time not their local time, on my screen that quote from Plotnicki happened at 11:58 AM.

[Fat Guy]

Same with the edited-by time. It's a known issue that apparently has been remedied in the 1.1 upgrade, which you all will see in a month or two.

[Fat Guy]

Interesting piece on kosher surimi:

http://www.koshertoday.com/kosher%20today%...20Shellfish.htm

[Stephanie]

Cognac is an example of a status drink that will never be "mass" because most people don't like the taste.

Really? Pass the Courvoisier, indeed.....

[Steve Plotnicki]

But for vodka to catch on, there needed to be a ritual associated with eating and drinking for them to latch onto. And without there being drinks that used vodka that became popular like a bloody mary or a sea breeze, and a tradition of when people drank them like brunch or afternoon/pre dinner cocktails, then vodka could never have caught on as big as it did. Where is the space for risotto to creep into?

[jaybee]

Re: Kosher surimi, I was sitting in a meeting room in Duluth Mn, with a bunch of Swedes who owned the Kemp Seafood Company when the door swung open to reveal a full-dress Hassid in the reception room. The door closed just as quickly and I thought I was having an "Annie Hall" moment, being the only Jew in the room. I learned that he was making his weekly visit to kosher the equipment for the special run they did.

[Wilfrid]

Why isn't the "space" for risotto just lunch or dinner. Most people, horrible though it may be to contemplate, do not eat multi-course meals on a daily basis. The British took to risotto - disgusting and ersatz though the product was - just as something to eat as a meal. Where's the mystery?

[Fat Guy]

But for vodka to catch on, there needed to be a ritual associated with eating and drinking for them to latch onto. And without there being drinks that used vodka that became popular like a bloody mary or a sea breeze, and a tradition of when people drank them like brunch or afternoon/pre dinner cocktails, then vodka could never have caught on as big as it did. Where is the space for risotto to creep into?

Bit if something is being offered as a standalone meal I fail to see how it requires the development of a new space. We already have lunch, dinner, light bites, snacks, etc.

This seems a departure from your taste argument.

[Edit: Great minds think alike; cross-posted with Wilfrid.]

[Sandra Levine]

Why isn't the "space" for risotto just lunch or dinner.

...as an alternative to pasta.