Setagaya

[alwang]

Hmmm, different strokes for different folks, I guess. I was at Momofuku on Sunday, and I have to say I vastly prefer either of the Setagaya options to Momofuku's (we had the Momofuku ramen and the braised pork neck ramen). The broth, noodles, and toppings were all superior at Setagaya. The meat, I'd call it a toss-up.

Price-wise, I agree Setagaya isn't cheap, but Momofuku is in the same price range. Plus, if you get the deluxe tsuke-men or the regular Setagaya ramen with $1 for extra noodles, you're talking about a truly prodigious amount of food. The other Manhattan ramen places are a little cheaper, but none are $6, as far as I know.

BTW, I still love Momofuku's other menu items: the shrimp with sweet corn and miso butter we had yesterday was fantastic. I just won't be going there for noodles.

-a

[raji]

Yeah I should have preface by saying I still haven't been to Momofuku, but I also still maintain it's apple's and oranges, and I don't really compare the 2. Unless you are grouping all noodle soups, be they japanese, korean, vietnamese, thai, chinese, together, then there's no point.

Yes, ramen is actually a chinese import, but it's a Japanese phenomenon.

the funniest thing I forgot to mention is that once I jumped out the cab and saw the big Setagaya sign, I just laughed... they're all over Tokyo and I've been to them plenty enough times in Japan. I just didn't ever bother translating the kanji.

Here's the thing; usually, I'd walk past Setagaya ramen and go get a style of ramen I much more like. Can't do that here.

As I remarked to FG, the bestest thing that could happen would that Setagaya's opening would spark a ramen war. Then we'd really get some good ramen going in NYC, and it's too bad there hasn't been already, there's certainly enough of a japanese population to support it,but, let's just say that Japanese companies are not known for taking risks.

Maybe the styles of ramen I like are what more NYers will like. I wasn't completely brainwashed over a few short years in japan, I'm as much a NYer as they come.

BTW, no gyoza is a capitol crime in Japan. No gyoza!!!!!

[dabestspooner]

I wasnt crazy about setagaya either

at least ippudo is coming and Santouka is close by.

[Mayur]

Here's the thing; usually, I'd walk past Setagaya ramen and go get a style of ramen I much more like. Can't do that here.

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Not for ramen, but you *could* get non-traditional noodles at Momofuku... it's worth the noise IMO. Hence NYC rather than Tokyo...

[Gastro888]

I wasnt crazy about setagaya either

at least ippudo is coming and Santouka is close by.

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Oh, sounds interesting! Please do give some details. Where is Santouka?

[ned]

Quality control problems. Salt taste egg doesn't taste like salt. Pork tough and dry. Broth cloudy. . . not so brilliant.

All of the above has been echoed by others to whom I have suggested Setagaya.

Big changes from my last visits and none for the better.

[docsconz]

These recent reports are very disappointing. Most restaurants improve after settling in a little bit. Apparently this one has not, although I'm basing this assessment on these reports as the one meal that I had there with Joseph B was superb and a truly fantastic value. It was quite delicious and satisfying even on the breathlessly hot evening that we had it. None of the criticisms that I have subsequently read here recently applied then.

[raji]

I wasnt crazy about setagaya either

at least ippudo is coming and Santouka is close by.

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Oh, sounds interesting! Please do give some details. Where is Santouka?

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Santouka is a ramen chain from Hokkaido known for it's stellar chyasuu, skinny, delish noodles and intoxicating white tonkotsu broth

ignore the japanese and click around!

http://www.santouka.co.jp/

In my days in Japan Santouka was geographically the closest ramen shop to my office in Shibuya, Tokyo; it also became my favorite and the favorite of many. You know it must be good when there is a line 50 people deep at lunchtime, at 20 people deep at 2am, in Tokyo where there are seemingly as many ramen shops as people.

They happen to have an outpost at the Mitsuwa in Edgewater, and I've always lamented that the best ramen in NYC is in NJ. After an inaugural visit to Setagaya with FG the other week, this is still the case. I wasn't a fan of Setagaya in Japan, but, their flavors just don't live up to the hype...

if Ippudo is coming over, I am psyched - lookie lookie!! http://www.ippudo.com/index.html

Their style is hakatamen which will seem pretty identical to hokkaido-style ramen to most Americans...

Anyway, I do believe the Setagaya ramen was not the right STYLE of ramen to expect to succeed in NYC... liking it is probably more specific to the Japanese palette in it's usage of light flavors and especially fish flavors while you could compare the potential appeal of an Ippudo or Santouka to the solungtang at Gah Mee Ohk, which has many many American devotees and is just GOOD FOOD anyway you slice it.

If they're not consistent, well that's a whole nother problem. They shouldn't be serving tough chashuu.

For those who know what Natto is (it's fermented soybean; I don't like it, it's texture is that of mucous and it smells like feet) - same deal - I wouldn't exactly open a Natto shop in NYC, because you're already going after a niche market. But negitoro - hell, everyone likes negitoro!

[dagordon]

I haven't noticed any decline in quality at Setagaya. We were there on Wednesday night. The only differences that I noticed between that night's food and previous visits' were that the salt taste egg tasted like a plain egg (previously it had some flavor which we couldn't quite identify; our best guess was miso), and the cha-syu tsuke-men was a touch less salty. The food was delicious.

The last two times I've been I was with my fiancee, and we got a cha-syu-men and a cha-syu tsuke-men and split them. It's a problem, though, that it's hard to appreciate the subtle flavors of the cha-syu-men after having the cha-syu tsuke-men; the cha-syu tsuke-men kind of blows out the palate. It's the Japanese analogue to the Vietnamese pho vs. bon bo hue dilemma; it's hard to appreciate a good pho immediately after having bon bo hue. In the future I don't think we'll do the splitting thing.

[Gastro888]

We had the cha-syu-men & the cha-syu tsuke-men and did the splitting bit. I appreciated the complexity of the ramen broth but again, the dry cha-syu was a pain.

The fat was glorious. Too bad you can't request just pork belly in your ramen. Oh yeah...

[dagordon]

I should have mentioned: I did not find the cha-syu tsuke-men at all greasy. This might not be the sort of thing that is easily assessed by looking at a picture. Yes, there is a good amount of fat in the broth. But it doesn't come off as greasy, to us at least, just as a fantastically rich broth.

[docsconz]

I should have mentioned: I did not find the cha-syu tsuke-men at all greasy. This might not be the sort of thing that is easily assessed by looking at a picture. Yes, there is a good amount of fat in the broth. But it doesn't come off as greasy, to us at least, just as a fantastically rich broth.

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This was my assessment as well. If these other ramen places are that much better they must be making and selling some seriously good stuff.

[docsconz]

New York Times Review

It’s not a broth with a lot of bombast — just a restrained meatiness from pork, an ocean-bottom accent from seaweed, a mouthwatering underpinning of umami from dried scallop oil and a resounding, sometimes overwhelming, hit of salt.

But even though the broth is the thing at Setagaya, it’s the long, slightly irregular noodles that have lodged themselves in my mind. (The menu claims they come in three sizes, but I never could quite differentiate them in my slurping.) Fans of al dente pasta will love their resiliency and chew, which are a result of careful cooking and a healthy dose of kansui, a mixture of potassium carbonate and sodium carbonate in the dough that also imparts an egg-yellow hue.

[raji]

I couldn't get a sense of how much he really liked the place....or not...

I realize I'm paying a premium just to have an authentic Tokyo chain in Manhattan, but honestly, Setagaya's ramen is kinda boring. For 10 bucks, there should be a feature or at least a gimmick... whether it be a remarkably good broth, chashuu, something... anything. And no gyoza!! There are a lot of them in Tokyo but I think I only went when I was drunk and didn't want to wait on line for the good places. None of my friends, knowing I was a foodie and hardly a neophyte, ever took me there...

I remember a place in Japan that offered a Tsukemen for 650 yen, and you ordered either small, medium or large, and they were all the same price. You ordered based on the honors system. Imagine that in NY

Wait I think I snapped a photo of that! and I'll follow that with a pic of a really good bowl of ramen...

And I apologize to the mods in advance for posting pictures from Japan in the NY forum. I know it's arguably irrelevant. But, Given the huge influx in the past 5 years, really the only place on earth with better Japanese food than NYC is Japan. You'd think it would be HK or Taipei or Oz but I tell ya, I been to all those places and we take the cake.

I think it's all the more relevant too because Japanese restaurants and chefs have to deal with sooooo many people faking it, moreso than any other cuisine I can think of, and I mean Japanese flags and scrolls and names and a huge production preying on the fact that your average American cannot tell the difference between a Japanese, Chinese or Korean person. It's fine if what they served tasted good, but even your lowly ramen shop chef apprenticed, honed their craft and put a lot of effort into their particular cuisine... So, authenticity is a big factor...

I mean, David Chang, more power to him, besides the confusing name, he's not trying to fool anyone... but I just have to laugh when I see Japanese delivery menus where the background of the menu is just Japanese characters spelling out pure gibberish....

650yen (~$5.50) "large" tsukemen. The dipping sauce was totally delicious, not overly sweet, salty like Setagaya's...

700yen (~$6.25)Tonkotsu ramen from a famous 24 hour joint near Shibuya station. You use a ticket machine (they all do) and can choose from a dozen or so styles and then all sorts of toppings like chasyuu pork, egg, scallion, sauteed garlic, nori, etc. etc. You can also get additional noodles usually for another 1 or 2 dollars. And no gyoza is simply unheard of...

[docsconz]

Raji, your comparisons to Japanese ramen shops are certainly appreciated. I absolutely look forward to trying them whether in Japan, in NYC or wherever, especially if they are that much better than Setagaya. Setagaya may not be the best, but to this ramen neophyte it has opened up a whole new world of food.

[Pan]

mascarpone and I went to Setagaya for a latish lunch yesterday. We both got Cha-Syu Men. I thought the roast pork was excellent and I liked the subtle, somewhat seaweed-and-onion-accented broth, but mascarpone, with more experience in Japan, wasn't sure it shouldn't have been more flavorful. I thought their Oshinko was quite a bit superior to run-of-the-mill New York restaurant offerings. For example, when I've ordered that at Menkui Tei, it's been not only very salty but also funky in a way I didn't like. Not so at Setagaya, where they also included what tasted like red apricot pickles (someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that I liked a lot. Good seaweed salad, too, though the bamboo dish (I can't find the name right now) was not so interesting. I was quite satisfied with my meal and will be back to try other flavors of ramen. Of course, I lack raji's basis for comparison, having been to Japan only once, in 1975 when I was 10, and I can easily see room for better ramen. mascarpone commented that egg noodles in ramen are usually yellow, not white like the noodles we got.

[BryanZ]

Had a quick bite at Setagaya earlier this week and had the deluxe tsukemen and oyakodon. The oyakodon isn't exactly what I think of when I think of oyakodon, so much so that I thought we'd been served the wrong dish. Rather than the chicken being simmered with the onions and beaten into the egg, this was a seasoned ground chicken mixture with a raw egg yolk on top. Still, it was very tasty and perfect as a stomach filling intermezzo between bars.

I quite liked the ramen, though again it was rather different than what I think of as shioramen. Rather than a poignant, deeply salty broth, this was somewhat lighter, the dried scallop and scallop oil adding a lot of flavor. Because of this I thought the broth was quite complex though lacking in a bit of body. I will admit I'm a fan of the richer styles, miso and tonkotsu in general, but found this an interesting new experience. The wide noodles were well-cooked, with just the right amount of spring and chew.

I also sampled Momofuku's special ramen immediately after my visit to Setagaya. The broth here was much more subtle, boring to my tastes. My dining companion preferred this broth to Setagaya's, so to each her own. I found that the Momo ramen was all about the toppings--nori, fresh peas, pork neck and belly--and less about the broth or the noodles. In fact, I found the noodles woefully overcooked and mushy. One literally had to just slurp them down, no chewing was required.

[Pan]

I had Oshinko (no daikon pickle tonight, but it was all good) and Shio Ramen for a late dinner tonight. It wouldn't surprise me if there's much better ramen in Japan, but the most important thing to me is that this place is way superior to my previous standby in the neighborhood, Menkui Tei (which does, however, have a larger variety of ramen to choose from). And by the way, though I didn't finish all the broth, I didn't consider the saltiness out of line for a soup, and as a matter of fact, I think some of Menkui Tei's ramen may be even saltier. It's great that Setagaya is open until midnight on weekends. Do you think they might consider extending their hours till 1 AM?

[raji]

Minca and Rairaiken are probably better than the downtown Menkuitei, but the midtown menkuitei and menchanktei are probably better than those 3 downtown. Saburi's ramen's are also very good and should be tried.

But you should really take a trip to the Mitsuwa, if not to stock up on Japanese groceries, to try the Santouka that is there, and then compare them with Setagaya. Honestly I was I was a shioramen fan, I would be a lot more excited about Setagaya...

Ramen is really Japan's national dish... if Gah Mee Ohk can stay open 24 hours a day serving soluntang, it's still a bit of a mystery to me why there can't be a 24 hour ramen shop in the right location, i guess we're just missing someone with the balls to do it...

[alwang]

Minca and Rairaiken are probably better than the downtown Menkuitei, but the midtown menkuitei and menchanktei are probably better than those 3 downtown. Saburi's ramen's are also very good and should be tried.

But you should really take a trip to the Mitsuwa, if not to stock up on Japanese groceries, to try the Santouka that is there, and then compare them with Setagaya. Honestly I was I was a shioramen fan, I would be a lot more excited about Setagaya...

Ramen is really Japan's national dish... if Gah Mee Ohk can stay open 24 hours a day serving soluntang, it's still a bit of a mystery to me why there can't be a 24 hour ramen shop in the right location, i guess we're just missing someone with the balls to do it...

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I was at the Mitsuwa Santouka this past weekend, and my conclusion is that their ramen is nowhere in the same league as Setagaya. We had both the miso and the shio ramen, and the broths for both were just not very noteworthy. The toppings were pretty skimpy, and the pork itself was a little dry, and not grilled like Setagaya's. The noodles were actually pretty good, possibly better chew than Setagaya, but I've grown fond of the uneven widths of Setagaya's noodles, and so the Mitsuwa noodles seemed a little overly uniform.

The only thing the Mitsuwa ramen has going for it is it's cheaper.

[erha2]

Minca and Rairaiken are probably better than the downtown Menkuitei, but the midtown menkuitei and menchanktei are probably better than those 3 downtown. Saburi's ramen's are also very good and should be tried.

But you should really take a trip to the Mitsuwa, if not to stock up on Japanese groceries, to try the Santouka that is there, and then compare them with Setagaya. Honestly I was I was a shioramen fan, I would be a lot more excited about Setagaya...

Ramen is really Japan's national dish... if Gah Mee Ohk can stay open 24 hours a day serving soluntang, it's still a bit of a mystery to me why there can't be a 24 hour ramen shop in the right location, i guess we're just missing someone with the balls to do it...

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ippudo will be opening on 4th ave later this fall. i remember in tokyo they were open till at least 4 am. hopefully the manhattan outpost will be the same.

[raji]

I was at the Mitsuwa Santouka this past weekend, and my conclusion is that their ramen is nowhere in the same league as Setagaya.  We had both the miso and the shio ramen, and the broths for both were just not very noteworthy.  The toppings were pretty skimpy, and the pork itself was a little dry, and not grilled like Setagaya's.  The noodles were actually pretty good, possibly better chew than Setagaya, but I've grown fond of the uneven widths of Setagaya's noodles, and so the Mitsuwa noodles seemed a little overly uniform.

The only thing the Mitsuwa ramen has going for it is it's cheaper.

Oooh I think many people would disagree with you. Might be a matter of personal preference. It's discussed here too, but this is before Setagaya opened

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=53714&st=30

But I really suggest you try their torinikuramen, and compared to their miso and shio broths, the white, cloudy toriniku broth is simply more satisfying.

As to Ippudo, I think their location could potentially be a good one - it's close enough to 3rd avenue heading east, and hopefully would stay late and become a beacon for late-nighters. That's really the time and place for a ramen. Most Japanese would have a bit of a laugh seeing it discussed in gourmet forums...

[alwang]

Oooh I think many people would disagree with you. Might be a matter of personal preference. It's discussed here too, but this is before Setagaya opened

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=53714&st=30

But I really suggest you try their torinikuramen, and compared to their miso and shio broths, the white, cloudy toriniku broth is simply more satisfying.

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Maybe it's just a case of me ordering the wrong thing, and I'd be curious to try the torinikuramen next time. Don't want to take this too far off-topic, but I felt the shio broth was inferior to Setagaya's, and the miso broth inferior to Menchankotei's, both in a very objective way.

[BryanZ]

Mitsuwa's shioramen is totally different than Setagaya's. I suppose when I think of shioramen I think of something like what's served at Mitsuwa. To me they're almost too different to be directly comparable, despite the fact that they're technically of the same style.

[BryanZ]

Made a quick stop at Setagaya for second dinner and a beer. This time i ordered the chayashu ramen, with two kinds of pork. This was really a killer bowl of noodles. The broth seemed less salty and less oily than last time (when I ordered the dish with the separation of noodles and broth). The two types of pork really played off of each other nicely and the noodles were very firm. This was late in the night and the restaurant wasn't very crowded so perhaps the cooks were better able to tend to their noodle and pork cooking techniques. Still, I was very impressed and again assert that Setagaya beats the pants off of Momo for an enjoyable ramen experience