"Asian Dining Rules" -- Fat Guy's new book

[Fat Guy]

Imagine if you were travelling through rural India and all of a sudden you stumble across an absolutely authentic shitty New Jersey diner, complete with bad coffee, surly waitresses and greasy, stale food, named something like Le Chalet du Monde (Mostly Fine French Dining).

←

Did you see the piece in Time about the diner in Egypt?

[Gastro888]

So maybe you all could help me with some idea generation here. One of the things I want to include in the book is a set of cross-cultural cuisine comparisons. These would be little sidebars (or shaded boxes, or whatever the book designer chooses) sprinkled throughout the book, discussing similarities among Asian cuisines (and beyond).

So, for example, dumplings. Pretty much every Asian cuisine has a version of these, so I'd do a little guide to dumpling types, with brief descriptions of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc., dumplings, and also some examples of dumplings from non-Asian cuisines. This I think, in addition to perhaps being interesting, could help demystify a new cuisine for someone who has never, for example, had Korean food.

So these are the ones I've thought of so far:

- Dumplings

- Curries

- Wraps (Chinese moo-shu, Korean ssam, various Southeast Asian wraps,

Indian frankie)

- Noodles (this might be a longer piece; also interesting that India seems not to have a significant noodle culture)

Any other thoughts? And does this sort of comparison chart/sidebar seem like something that might be a good addition to the book?

←

Why not a piece on Asian bakeries? I think alot of people are missing out on the joys of buns, baos, hot dog buns, Korean bakeries, Japanese bakeries, etc.

Definitely include a primer on a Chinese/HK chachanteng - translated into "teahouse" but more like a Chinese diner. People are missing out on some good eats there. It's a shame!

[Fat Guy]

Those are two subjects that I think are interesting. I may be able to include something about them. If not a full-fledged guide, then at least a paragraph explaining what they are and a few basic things about them. The question I have to answer every time I decide whether or not to include something like Asian bakeries is how relevant they are to most of North America. Included in the book's target audience are tens of millions of people who live in cities and towns where there is no Chinatown and no niche specialty stores. So, always a decision to make.

[Gastro888]

Those are two subjects that I think are interesting. I may be able to include something about them. If not a full-fledged guide, then at least a paragraph explaining what they are and a few basic things about them. The question I have to answer every time I decide whether or not to include something like Asian bakeries is how relevant they are to most of North America. Included in the book's target audience are tens of millions of people who live in cities and towns where there is no Chinatown and no niche specialty stores. So, always a decision to make.

←

You should include them and educate people on what's out there. That's part of the joy of reading - you get to learn about all the great things that yes, might not be in your neighborhood but hey, isn't this an interesting thing to learn about? Who knows if you might inspire some kid from Iowa to go on a trip to NY in search of what you're writing about.

Just my thoughts.

[Fat Guy]

There's a balance that has to be struck. If people perceive the book as esoteric, they won't buy it. So it can include some niche material but has to remain anchored to what's more widely available.

[robyn]

I hope you have a section devoted to language.

It's no secret that if you're able to communicate with the help, that you'll have a better meal experience overall.

←

P.P.S. My husband studied Japanese for a year before we went to Japan last year. It enabled us to be polite and ask simple questions - that's about it. We relied on other things to eat (including dining with friends who spoke fluent Japanese). And Chinese is supposedly even harder to learn than Japanese (not to mention that there is more than one language spoken in China).

I agree with Fat Guy about the bowing stuff. We stayed at the Four Seasons in Tokyo - and I saw many business groups in the bar doing bowing. Very precise - and very interesting. I think his suggestion of - at best - a simple nod of the head when dealing in Japan - or with Japanese people - is on target.

←

I respectfully disagree.

My family speaks primarily Fukien, and while this is not quite compatible with the Cantonese spoken by some Chinese in restaurants in Chinatown, there's always Mandarin. There are nuances that are not necessarily easily communicated by English alone.

←

What do you disagree with? Is any form of Chinese easy to learn? Robyn

[robyn]

Of course - you don't want to write a whole book about buffets.  You want to discuss better restaurants.  And on that front - I suggest spending at least a couple of weeks - if not more - on the west coast of the US - everywhere from Los Angeles to Seattle (and Hawaii if you can swing it).  That is where the largest oriental populations in the US are. 

←

I would skip Seattle and keep on going up the road to Vancouver if it were not for this one place which does authentic bad chinese food. Imagine if you were travelling through rural India and all of a sudden you stumble across an absolutely authentic shitty New Jersey diner, complete with bad coffee, surly waitresses and greasy, stale food, named something like Le Chalet du Monde (Mostly Fine French Dining). That's the surreal nature this place gives off to a Chinese person.

You should definitely check it out if you're ever in the area.

←

I'd go to Vancouver too - but this is supposed to be a book about the United States. Robyn

[Fat Guy]

It's about North America.

[robyn]

Those are two subjects that I think are interesting. I may be able to include something about them. If not a full-fledged guide, then at least a paragraph explaining what they are and a few basic things about them. The question I have to answer every time I decide whether or not to include something like Asian bakeries is how relevant they are to most of North America. Included in the book's target audience are tens of millions of people who live in cities and towns where there is no Chinatown and no niche specialty stores. So, always a decision to make.

←

I think you underestimate the number of stores - perhaps not Korean bakeries - but general grocery stores. I can think of 3 within 10 miles of my house (and that's only a part of the city). It's just a question of whether there's a sufficient number of shoppers to support the stores. I think "everything you wanted to know about shopping in oriental grocery stores but were afraid to ask" would be interesting to a lot of readers. Keep in mind that in a lot of stores like those in my area - there are many ingredients from many different cuisines (everything from Chinese to Thai to Filipino to Japanese). Robyn

[Fat Guy]

Good to know. Thanks.

[robyn]

It's about North America.

←

Then I would certainly go to Vancouver - keeping in mind that there are almost as many Chinese/Americans in the greater Los Angeles area as there are people in Vancouver (Vancouver is a nice city - but obviously much smaller in scope than Los Angeles).

Another thing is that unlike days of yore - when most Chinese congregated in "Chinatowns" - these days you're more likely to find them in the suburbs - whether you're talking about Vancouver or Los Angeles - or places like San Jose - a suburbanized city which is now the 10th largest in the US. So if a tourist or local is looking for good restaurants - he or she may have a better chance of finding them in strip malls in places like the San Gabriel valley than in traditional "Chinatowns". Don't know how accurate this is (who knows with Wikipedia?) - but at a minimum it gives one a general idea of population concentrations. Robyn

[Fat Guy]

For those with good Japanese language skills, I was hoping I might be able to get some help with a few basic phrases. What I'm trying to do is just make a list of the top most useful phrases for a restaurant customer to know. I'm not talking about names of foods, and also not specific sushi words like "omakase" (I've got those covered already). I mean things like "domo arigato" and "konichiwa" -- phrases that if you know a few of them, it's nice to use them in basic interaction with the waitstaff. Words to say when you walk in, when you leave, etc. So, top ten suggestions (with definitions and, if it's not obvious, pronunciation)?

[robyn]

If this is for the book - as opposed to a trip to Japan - I think it's kind of a silly exercise. We've eaten a lot of Japanese food in North America (mostly on the west coast) - and most of the staff in these restaurants speaks English - perhaps not perfectly - but much better than you'll know Japanese after studying for a year or two. My husband and I have a rule when it comes to languages. If we speak a little or even a lot of a foreign language - but the person we're speaking to speaks English better than we speak the foreign language - we use English.

Have to add that one unfortunate consequence of speaking a few phrases fluently - with a perfect accent - is that you may fool people into thinking you do speak the language. And if you get a 2 sentence response in a foreign language you don't really know - then where will you be - totally clueless in general IMO.

What would be better than learning a few phrases is learning about the cuisine. To this end - I recommend 2 books. A Dictionary of Japanese Food (by Richard Hosking) - and What's What in Japanese Restaurants (by Robb Satterwhite - he posts here on eGullet). Robyn

[Fat Guy]

Thanks for your input, Robyn, however I'm comfortable with the decision to include a few simple phrases in the Japanese chapter of the book. It goes without saying that the bulk of the chapter (which is about 13,000 words in length and is nearly done) is devoted to teaching people about the cuisine, based on extensive research (I've had a look at Mr. Satterwhite's excellent book, however it's a guide for visitors to Japan whereas my book is about getting the most out of Asian restaurants in North America -- a somewhat different task) as well as many in-person interviews and restaurant visits. Thanks again!

Would love some suggested phrases from the Japanese speakers out there.

[Hiroyuki]

Thanks for your input, Robyn, however I'm comfortable with the decision to include a few simple phrases in the Japanese chapter of the book. It goes without saying that the bulk of the chapter (which is about 13,000 words in length and is nearly done) is devoted to teaching people about the cuisine, based on extensive research (I've had a look at Mr. Satterwhite's excellent book, however it's a guide for visitors to Japan whereas my book is about getting the most out of Asian restaurants in North America -- a somewhat different task) as well as many in-person interviews and restaurant visits. Thanks again!

Would love some suggested phrases from the Japanese speakers out there.

←

I have difficulty answering that kind of question, but I can assure you that both Itadakimasu and Gochisosamadeshita should be at the top of the list.

Visit Kristin's thread, and you will be able to find top ten yourself.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...22entry274322

As for words describing tastes, assari should should be mentioned first. The Japanese are great lovers of assari flavors, and such simple comments as "assari, oishii!" (forget the grammer here) will make your chef smile.

[Fat Guy]

I have difficulty answering that kind of question, but I can assure you that both Itadakimasu and Gochisosamadeshita should be at the top of the list.

←

Correct me if I'm wrong Hiroyuki (and I know you will!) but isn't "itadakimasu" something you say to the people you're dining with? Is there any situation in which you'd say "itadakimasu" to the staff of a restaurant?

"Gochisosamadeshita" means "thanks for the delicious meal," right? You'd say it when you're leaving?

As for words describing tastes, assari should should be mentioned first.  The Japanese are great lovers of assari flavors, and such simple comments as "assari, oishii!" (forget the grammer here) will make your chef smile.

This sounds like the sort of thing I'm looking for: a simple little thing you can say to be polite and indicate that you have respect for Japanese culinary culture. I think if you say something like "assari, oishii!" (though I hope you'll explain more about what it literally means) to a Japanese sushi chef (bearing in mind that plenty of American Japanese restaurants don't have any Japanese people working in them -- in which case this exercise isn't relevant to that scenario) you're doing something that indicates respect. Nobody is going to think you're a Japanese-speaker -- that's not the point. But you might get, as you say, a smile.

A question, Hiroyuki: if you walk into a restaurant and they say "irashaimase" to you, what's the appropriate response?

[edited for clarity]

[Fat Guy]

A couple of others that might be nice to know. This seems pretty simple, but "hai" is a good one. If your server asks you a question and the answer is yes, you say "hai." Also, the suffix "-san" is probably good to know, if for example a sushi chef tells you his name is "Shin" then it's nice to refer to him as "Shin-san." What does "-san" mean, though?

See we're getting up there already.

[Fat Guy]

Also for a neophyte it might be easier to say "Gochisosama" than "Gochisosamadeshita." That would work, right?

[Hiroyuki]

Correct me if I'm wrong Hiroyuki (and I know you will!) but isn't "itadakimasu" something you say to the people you're dining with? Is there any situation in which you'd say "itadakimasu" to the staff of a restaurant?

As you say, I can't think of any situation like that, unless you are very familiar with the staff, making you feel at home and want to say "Itadakimasu!". I was thinking of a particular situation where you dine at the counter of a sushi shop. In that situation, it's not unusual to say "Itadakimasu" to the chef if the chef is attentive to you.

Itadakimasu can be said in various situations. You can say it to the one who has prepared the meal for you and to other diners, and you can even say them to yourself when you are alone in your home.

"Gochisosamadeshita" means "thanks for the delicious meal," right? You'd say it when you're leaving?

Gochisosamadeshita literally means "It was a feast." and is a phrase to express your thanks for the meal. You can say it when you're leaving, but you can also say it to signal that you have eaten enough while still sitting at the counter.

In this Kuitan episode,

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=iB7fxqlywiI&...related&search=

Kuitan says Itadakimasu at 0:25 before eating and Gochisosamadeshita at 4:57 while still sitting.

This sounds like the sort of thing I'm looking for: a simple little thing you can say to be polite and indicate that you have respect for Japanese culinary culture. I think if you say something like "assari, oishii!" (though I hope you'll explain more about what it literally means) to a Japanese sushi chef (bearing in mind that plenty of American Japanese restaurants don't have any Japanese people working in them -- in which case this exercise isn't relevant to that scenario) you're doing something that indicates respect. Nobody is going to think you're a Japanese-speaker -- that's not the point. But you might get, as you say, a smile.

You don't necessarily have to show respect for Japanese culinary culture, but it's good to know some handy words to express your appreciation for a great food or meal.

Assari (noun) = Light, non-greasy, non-fatty, plain in a good way.

Oishii (adjective) = Delicious.

If you want to sound more native, you may want to say:

Assari de oishii

or

Assari shite ite oishii

Imagine a situation where very fatty, marbled beef is served and you eat it with grated daikon and ponzu, and it's so delicious you may want to say, "I thought it was fatty, but it isn't at all! It's assari!".

A question, Hiroyuki: if you walk into a restaurant and they say "irashaimase" to you, what's the appropriate response?

The appropriate response is no response! We usually don't say anything in response to "Irasshaimase!" (note the double s). If you are a regular, however, you can always say something like kon'nichiwa (not konichiwa but kon-nichiwa) and some witty remarks. Personally, I'd say '...nchiwa!" for short. (Don't try to say it, especially if you are a woman.)

A couple of others that might be nice to know. This seems pretty simple, but "hai" is a good one. If your server asks you a question and the answer is yes, you say "hai." Also, the suffix "-san" is probably good to know, if for example a sushi chef tells you his name is "Shin" then it's nice to refer to him as "Shin-san." What does "-san" mean, though?

And, no is "iie".

"-san" is a suffix, as you say, an honorific suffix, to be exact. It's absolutely required when you address someone who is an adult, regardless of the sex. A child is addressed by adding -chan. A young man is sometimes addressed by adding -kun. -sama is used to address a customer and someone worthy of respect, and to address someone in a letter. -sama is also used in the phrase above, "Gochisosamadeshita" (where gochiso = feast, -sama = honorific suffix, deshita = was).

Also for a neophyte it might be easier to say "Gochisosama" than "Gochisosamadeshita." That would work, right?

Right, but not only for a neophyte but also for a native Japanese like me. I usually say "Gochisosama" to the waiter or waitress as I stand up and walk to the register, instead of saying something like "o-kanjo (check)." I think Gochisosamadeshita is a bit too polite in that situtation.

[Fat Guy]

Excellent. Thanks again, Hiroyuki, for making me look like I know what I'm talking about.

[raji]

If the staff is Japanese, they will know from your accent alone how good your Japanese is. My accent is nearly native, and the situation Robin describes has happened to me, where I am spoken to as a native Japanese, and my vocabulary is just not that good anymore.

Keep in mind that even Japanese owned and run restaurants, japanese-"looking" waitress who are chinese and korean are employed. They usually learn some basic Japanese phrases to deal with the Japanese clientele, of which a good Japanese restaurant should and will have many.

Robin is for the most part right, but at the same time, but you will get major brownie points by applying well-timed phrases. It's not just out of respect to Japanese culture and culinary practice, but it shows that you are well-heeled in the ways of Asian dining. korean restaurants will be blown away if you know any korean whatsoever; it's just not a language studied by non-koreans much at all... my anyanghaseo and yoboseyo are good enough by now...

Key japanese phrases would certainly be greetings:

"Konnicha, konbanwa - good day, good evening"

"Mata yoroshiku onegaishimasu" - is a good one as you're leaving, meaning kind of, please do your favor next time, it just kind of indicated, hey, I'll be back... "jya mata ne" might be a little course for that situation

think of "itadakimasu" as something you'd do at a temple when receiving your bowl of rice - it's just your little way of saying grace

"gochiso sama" is a standard good one as hiroyuki indicated.

Girls can be cute and say "oiichi" instead of oishii, said lolita-style, that might get a kick out of the chefs

If you can proncounce all these phrases and they understand you, you are ready to learn Japanese. If not, then it's time to dig up some youtube instructional videos and practice the Japanese vowel sounds (there are only 5) as this will increase the understandability of your Japanese phrases by leaps and bounds.

[Kouign Aman]

Sounds like a useful list of Korean phrases might also be in order.

I concur - speaking a few words is not an attempt to pass oneself off as a skilled speaker, its just good manners. It shows that one was interested enough to make an attempt. Its been my experience in traveling that my few words are always well received. I've not tried it in restaurants in the US, but I think it would be even better rec'd in that environment, where its even more unnecessary and therefore more thoughtful to learn the phrases.

[mcdowell]

I know there's been a lot of discussion about tipping over the years here on eG, a loaded subject that preys on all of our behavioral insecurities, but read something this morning that brings it into the context of Shaw's book-in-progress, so worth bringing up here:

There's a funny column in today's NY Daily News about tipping Chinese delivery men, with a punchline about the restaurant owner ringing up the accidental cheapscape to remind him that delivery guys have families to support too.

While I laughed, it does raise good underlying questions that might be well addressed in any treatise on Asian Restaurants:

--> How much do you tip your hardworking delivery guys? Flat couple of bucks, or percentage of the tab? Or (my favorite choice), pay by weight of the food?? Equally intriguing, but off topic, is tipping biased by the kind of food you're ordering (eg. do you take better care of the kid from Pizza Garden than you do the guy from China Garden?)?

--> Related, when surfing the Asian buffets, how do you tip your servers, who are likely only clearing plates and keeping your drinks topped off?

The article, short and worth reading, is here:

http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/brookl..._big_tip-2.html

[Fat Guy]

That restaurant owner is really conscientious. He calls customers to make sure they pay the delivery men so he doesn't have to.

There's a text box in the manuscript that discusses the Saigon Grill delivery strike and other issues related to the working conditions of delivery men. But you're right, I should talk more about tipping, both at buffets and for delivery. Thanks for the suggestion.

If anybody is curious about my practices: at the bottom of the range, for delivery I tip a minimum of $2 no matter how small the order, whether it's $5.95 or $10. After that I go to a fairly straightforward formula: $3 for a $20 order, $4 for a $25 order, $5 for a $30 order, etc. I also do a round-up for the pennies. I think it pretty much always works out to more than 15% and can sometimes be closer to 18%. I make some judgment calls here too: for example if the place is really far away (say 20 blocks, or across town), I'll up the minimum to $5 and the tip to closer to 20%.

For buffets, $2 per person minimum for buffets up to about $12. Above that, $3 per person. I'm not sure I've been to a buffet lately that costs above $20 per person, but I'd probably go to $4 per person at some point in the low $20s.

It's all absurd, though. The whole notion of "free" delivery is a joke, since you have to pay the delivery man or deal with various forms of retaliation. Just charge me a delivery fee. I'll be happy to pay it, and it will take the guesswork and stress out of the whole process. I don't care if its a percentage or a flat rate or a distance-related calculation. Just figure it out and tell me how much it costs.

At buffets, just put a service charge on the bill so I don't have to worry about it. I don't feel like subsidizing all the cheap bastards who tip a dollar for a whole table.

It's very difficult to get reliable information on what delivery men make, because both the restaurant and the delivery men have an interest in keeping it secret. The delivery men are always like "We make a dollar an hour," but of course that can't be true -- we know they make several deliveries per hour and are getting tipped in cash time and again.

One thing I've learned to do is always have a lot of small bills around the house. Another is always to ask the total from the restaurant while you're on the phone, before the delivery guy is standing at your door. That way when I pay for delivery I can give the exact amount I want to give. There's no opportunity for confusion, misstatement, or a claim that there's no change available.

[robyn]

If the staff is Japanese, they will know from your accent alone how good your Japanese is. My accent is nearly native, and the situation Robin describes has happened to me, where I am spoken to as a native Japanese, and my vocabulary is just not that good anymore.

Keep in mind that even Japanese owned and run restaurants, japanese-"looking" waitress who are chinese and korean are employed. They usually learn some basic Japanese phrases to deal with the Japanese clientele, of which a good Japanese restaurant should and will have many.

Robin is for the most part right, but at the same time, but you will get major brownie points by applying well-timed phrases. It's not just out of respect to Japanese culture and culinary practice, but it shows that you are well-heeled in the ways of Asian dining. korean restaurants will be blown away if you know any korean whatsoever; it's just not a language studied by non-koreans much at all... my anyanghaseo and yoboseyo are good enough by now...

Key japanese phrases would certainly be greetings:

"Konnicha, konbanwa - good day, good evening"

"Mata yoroshiku onegaishimasu" - is a good one as you're leaving, meaning kind of, please do your favor next time, it just kind of indicated, hey, I'll be back... "jya mata ne" might be a little course for that situation

think of "itadakimasu" as something you'd do at a temple when receiving your bowl of rice - it's just your little way of saying grace

"gochiso sama" is a standard good one as hiroyuki indicated.

Girls can be cute and say "oiichi" instead of oishii, said lolita-style, that might get a kick out of the chefs

If you can proncounce all these phrases and they understand you, you are ready to learn Japanese. If not, then it's time to dig up some youtube instructional videos and practice the Japanese vowel sounds (there are only 5) as this will increase the understandability of your Japanese phrases by leaps and bounds.

←

I've found it pretty useful (in a little or non-English speaking environment) to know some of the language - but I also bring some written material to facilitate communication. Like you may stop someone on the street and ask "where is" - and then pull out a map so he or she can point at the destination. Same with bilingual food guides when you're asking things like "what is this".

You have also pointed out the potential for a huge blunder in North America (as opposed to - for example - Japan) - which is assuming that everyone who looks Asian is of the restaurant's ethnicity. You're not going to get any brownie points here speaking Japanese in a Japanese restaurant - since almost all of the help is Chinese. And you won't get any brownie points mistaking a Korean person for a Japanese person either. So unless you are very sure you can distinguish between people from different countries - China - Japan - Thailand - Myanmar - Vietnam - Cambodia - etc. - some of whom don't like people from certain other Asian countries very much - it is probably safer to stick with English. Since I am frequently not very good at identifying peoples' national origins by sight - I always ask before I assume anything. E.g., we had a server in Arizona who looked somewhat Japanese (to me). I asked where he was from. Turned out he was Navajo. So I avoided breaking my first rule - don't put your foot in your mouth! Robyn

Edited August 10, 2007 by robyn (log)