jaybee

I see you're reading your handiwork. Very excellent report, SP. You've taken me to two places I am unlikely to go. (I have an aversion to Chicago from my advertising days). Thank you. Will your dinng companions chime in, or have they left history to you?

...and a few other very authentic well made brasserie and bistro favorites. My take on the place exactly.

I was asking the question to make a point, the same point you are tryng to make. but now it's time for the Sopranos, so the hell with food.

Why is that so hard to believe? I often ask a captain or waiter to recommend between two options on a menu (say two fish dishes) and he'll say, "take the "x" -- a special order just came in today and it is really superb. It is going fast." Aren't I being told the "x" is a better choice than "Y' on that particular day. I have also had chefs or captains who know me say. "tonight we have some wonderful morels and shitakes. If you like I can (ask chef to) make a fricasee with a little butter and garlic for you." These are not on the menu, and are in limited supply. I assume that this offer is not made to every one but first to regulars, or people for whom the chef is "cooking" e.g. a "special meal." I expect to get the very best that the house can do when I let the chef "cook for me." Does that mean people who don't, don't get the very best the house can do? That's not an issue I care about. I only care what I ( and the people I'm eating with) get.

Are you saying he's saying that the same exact dish served to him and the to people at the next table will differ in quality if his is part of a "special" meal and theirs is not? I know Steve takes extreme positions, but I don't think he'd go that far into nutsyville....would you Steve?

I didn't read anythng about asking a restaurant to prepare a special meal. My first meal at Blue Hill (which started this thread many moons ago) was very enjoyable. The waiter came over and said "Michael would like to cook for you tonight" and we said yes. Oddly, the poached duck was one of the best items we were served. I loved its texture, flavor and its juiciness. It was anything but bland, as you decribe it, Macrosan. Here's what I said about it then: So perhaps there is variability in their cooking, which is not unheard of. The food is prepared so that the main ingrediant is the star of the dish, and everything that is done to it is to enhance its flavor, taste and texture, and not overpower of divert the taste buds away from it. I have not been back yet, but it is high on my list of places to go next. The few times in my dining experience I was told the chef "would like to cook for me" were all memorable meals. Jean Troisgros did that for six of us and I doubt that I could have orchestrated a better meal. I think that is part of the trick here. it's not that the chef prepares a dish that the ordinary diner can't order, it's that he conceives the entire meal as a progression of tastes and flavors and builds from one to the next in a way that someone less familiar with the nuances of his cooking would be able to do. Years ago a famed three star French chef told us our meal was "on the wrong track." He explained the sequence of dishes we'd ordered was not the best to appreciate his food. It was our introduction to the idea of a "track" for a meal, and it makes a lot of sense to order that way. Who can do it better than the chef?

OK then tell me this: if I put two identical sausages in front of 100 people, One was labeled "Schoen's Artisinal Mortadella" and the other was labeled "Schoen's Mortadella" and I asked them to vote which one would they expect to taste better, what do you think most would say? Why? Now let's say the sausage labeled "Schoen's Artisinal Mortadella" was kind of uneven shaped, a little knarled and the other one was perfectly even and symmetrical. Which one would most people vote for as tasting better? Why? If the results are as I suspect, what would you conclude that the word artisinal communicates to people? What does it evoke? Is what a word evokes or comunicates to most people important to its "meaning"?

Yes, being artisinal does not perforce mean good. If a food writer uses the term, I would take to mean an approbation of quality (depending on the context). If a manufacturer or marketer of food used the terms, I would take it as a marketing technique and judge for myself if it was true. I've had "artisinal" versions of [products that taste like shit compared to a quality mass produced version. So what does that tell us? Words mean what the vast majority of people think they mean. If we are tallking about communication, then common usage and interpretation is the key determinant of what a word means. To argue that most people misunderstand or misinterpret the meaning of a word is useless, unles you are prepared to launch a vast campaign to change their minds. That does not mean one can take any word and use it any way one wants. If most people you are communicating with will not interpret a word the way you want, then its your problem to figure out, not theirs. (Unless you appoint an obergruppenfeuhrer of language and give him the authority to carry out his orders). Language is a changing thing. it is not static. Some words change faster than others. Common usage affects meaning. To argue otherwise is really living in an Ivory Tower.

I suggest using "artisinal-like" in this case, which implies having the charcteristics of an artisinal product but not actually being one. That would be accurate, honest and satisfy the purists. "quasi-artisinal" is another alternative but it has a more critical cast to it.

Right RS. FG is a provocateur. You could just see him thinking "wait until Plotnicki and a few purists start fighting over this one...heheheh." "what do you asume it implies" means what do you think most people interpret it to mean. It does not ask what should it mean, or what is the actual derivative of the the word. Nor does the question ask for any value judgements. So do you have your answer FG?

it dont mean a thing if it aint got that swing....doo dat doo dat doodatdooat.

"Authentic", food with "roots", "traditional" "ancestral recipes", are all terms in vogue to convey not mass produced and therefore worth a premium price. The bourbon market exploded in the last 5 years with small batch bourbons selling for very high prices. Bill Samuels started the trend with Makers Mark, which was really a hand made, small batch, "artisinal" spirit. The company was bought by Allied Domeq, and for all the wax on the bottle neck, I'd doubt that it is artisinal any more. But it sells a lot of bourbon at much higher margins than Jim Beam.

Artisinal is perceived by most people to mean "made by an artist" or an person who is skilled in the particular art or craft. The by-product of this association is made in "small quantities" not mass produced, involves a labor intensive process, not automated by machines, includes the personal oversight on one of two individuals for each product or item produced. For example, an artisinal sausage is one made in small quantities, using the least advanced production methods and overseen by a metier or master, who creates the recipe, sources the ingredients and passes judgement on the final product before it is sold. Could Citterrio make an artisinal sausage? Sure. Would they, no. They'd lose their shirt on it, or have to charge a ridiculously high price that no one would by it, except a few EGullet members. Do they produce sausages that they want to be perceived as artisinal. Sure. Is that evil? Artisans use it as a marketing term to tell people what they are selling. Such terms as "hand made" or "small batch" or "special production run" "made by the master" are used to convey care, attention and skill in the making. When Steve says that's how the market uses the term, he's right, in that it is loose enough to be used any way people want. You can't legally say "made by hand" if the product isn't. But that's not the case with words that have no established trade-legal definition.

Your velvet top coat alone qualifies you for that aphorism.

I'm planning to serve a chianti classico reserva '95, slightly chilled and that nice reisling (Selbach Oster, Zeltinger, Schlossberg, Kabinett 2000) I brought to the Diwan dinner. I'll serve an auslese or sweet malvese with dessert. Champagne ('95 Veuve Cliquot) for starters.

crudites and dip vegetrarian chopped liver chopped liver roast turkey southern style cornbread and sausage dressing vegetarian cornbread stuffing Gene's version of Marie's traditional giblet stuffing (Gene=brother, Marie=mother) baked ham giblet gravy vegetarian gravy roasted red snapper provençal brussel sprouts peas. pearl onions and mushrooms sweet potatoe pie cranberry relish tarte tatin apple pie pumkin pie chocolate chip cookies whipped cream topping Haven't decided the wines yet. 12 for dinner

Just to keep the record straight...

No fair, you edited---oh Grupenfheurer Perlow-- Did Rosie's edit make it within the alloted time or was she granted special priviledge? I don't see an edit note or time on the post

I know I know. Tarte Tatin for Suvir is one of the five things that are on my "I owe" list. It is number 3.

The wine I brought that everyone at our table liked is: Selbach Oster Zeltinger (town) Schlossberg (vinyard) Kabinett 2000 I bought it from Acker Merrill (w 72nd) for about $25. I just bought a bunch of 2001 reislings from the same area (Mosel). 2001 is said to be a great year for the region.

d'uh.

And don't forget those renovated kitchens with Viking and SubZeros.

A fair guess might be that Nick is a suburban guy and doesn't consider that to be a badge of going downhill. I do not recall the exact years. Maybe Nina or AHR can help.

There is a French imported creme fraiches sold in NYC at Fairway, Zabars and Citarella. it is d'Isgny St. Mere brand, the same brand of Normandy butter that I think is the best tasting. IMO the french creme fraiches has a richer, more tangy flavor and holds up well in cooking. A substitute that I make for a creme fraiche topping is heavy cream, 1/2 cup of buttermilk, 1/4 tsp of lemon juice, 1/4 tsp of vanilla extract and 2-3 tbs of sugar (to taste). Whip 'till thick ribbons appear. This produces a tangy whipped topping that contrasts well with very sweet fruit tarts. Helena, you and I are big fans of d'Isigny, but no one else seems to pick up on it. I wonder why?

droll, dude, very droll.