Bux

← As of this morning, it is winter 2005, is it not?

High noon seems awfully early for lunch in Spain. I regret I won't be around to referee the meal.

I think there are bargains at all levels of dining. Some three star restaurants are a bargain for what they offer. Of course many restaurants are unique and it's hard to compare values for what they offer. For all that, even at today's exchange rates, I think there are moderately priced restaurants that still offer more value per US dollar than most restaurants in NY, especially when you consider that tax and service (for the most part) are included. Of course dining in Paris and New York may be more expensive than in other places where the real estate and salaries are less expensive. As one approaches the level of starred restaurants, far better value can be found in the provinces, than in Paris.

That should really be a universal caveat. For a restaurant of its class in the 16th arr., the price and the quality of the champagne are probably not out of line. As I suggested earlier, a couple of glasses of champagne taken at the suggestion of the host, can often double my wine bill. I'm quite good at abstaining from an aperitif or asking for the wine list before ordering any wine by the glass, but we were in an exuberant mood having just arrived in Paris to find our room ready for an early check in and a chance to freshen up before lunch. We were also aware this might be the last meal we take not in the company of a nine month old and the last chance to relax in Paris. My advice to all is that aperitifs, partcularly champagne and house cocktails, are among the lowest values to be had in restaurnants.

I can only concur to the extent that our lunch there was probably the most interesting, personal and talent laden meal I've had in or around Madrid. There are places in which I still haven't eaten and I'm not prone to make absolute statements about a restaurant on the basis of one meal. In fact, I'm rather reluctant to make too qualitative a comparison between excellent restaurants after only brief encouters, but my previous statement sums up my feeling about Coque -- ". . . it was the best meal we've had in the immediate area [of Madrid]."

This is an event of great magnitude. It's understandable that the Society would relax its rules about offtopic discussion. Surely there are always topics of greater importance than good food and certainly of greater importance that a discussion of expensive restaurants. Generally speaking, this is not the place to discuss those topics, but this disaster touches us all in such a way that it cannot be denied a place within our forums, if only to help people get in touch with others and to decide how and when to contribute. For the latter, we've posted a list of a wide range of charities in the hope that members might find one suitable to their needs. Other suggestions have been made earlier in this thread. However, the subject really isn't one that comfortably fits on this site when it comes to deeper discussions that drift from the essential need to reach out and help those in need. In fact, there are those all over the world who are also suffering, in pain, starving and in mortal danger. We won't solve the world's problems in this thread and we run into the danger of losing the original purpose of this thread by delving into the politics of one country or another as a recent post has done. We have no problem with members holding political views, nor do we dispute their rights to express them. It's just that this is not the place for that. It defeats the eGullet Society's mission and it defeats the purpose of allowing this thread to develop. We've removed the post that raises the ugly head of politics and we're closing this thread. Should any member have important information or links, please contact me by PM. Thank you all for your concern for the victims of this horrible event. From trillium: Here is another good local (to Sri Lanka) org that isn't listed on your announcement page or in the thread. http://www.sarvodaya.org/ It has a 45 year track record in the region and you can make secure donations online.

There's nothing wrong with putting your elbows on the table in France either, but as Peter B Wolf suggests, put your hands in your lap in France, as you're taught to do in parts of the U.S. and you're sure to raise some eyebrows and perhaps some comments about what you're doing down there. Judging by the differences in attitudes about elbows on the table or not, these are rules that fall into the arbitray category and serve not to make things run smoother, but to promote a sort of snobbism.

Let's go with salad. Suppose you had some fine herbs and baby lettuces and distributed them to two restaurants or two cooks. They'll taste the same. Now suppose you had both cooks whip up a vinaigrette from the same recipe, dress the greens and serve the salads. The dressings may even taste the same. Will the salads "taste" the same, maybe, but will they be of completely equal quality? I'm using this example because of a discussion I had some half dozen or more years back with a young cook who was then working in the kitchen at Daniel and had recently worked at Commander's Palace in New Orleans. What he was telling me was that this was the first time in his life that he had worked under such exacting demands. As an example of those demands, he cited having to prepare a salad of herbs in which every leaf was coated with dressing on both sides, but not with so much that any leaf would drip. This is the difference in standards between restaurants and it can be applied to every cut a cook makes with his knife and the cooking of every piece of food. I think it's fair to set a standard for chocolate that's based on using the purest and best grade of ingredients that would include chocolate and cocoa butter. Nevertheless, I've been told by someone from the UK that they prefer the taste of chocolate when some of the cocoa butter has been replaced with some sort of non-chocolate hydrogenated fat. This is not a moot point. Belgium and France fought hard to prohibit what they have long considered as an adulterated product, from being legally sold as chocolate. Unfortunately the lobbyists from the UK have won and I now have to read the fine print on the labels in all EU countries to know if the chcocolate I'm buying is real chocolate. A review of chocolates may be more useful to me if it tells me which chocolates meet my standards than if it tells me which taste better. Not knowing the taster's taste, I shouldn't much care what he likes. Back to salad, if I don't know the critic, knowing he liked the salad doesn't really tell me too much. Knowing that each leaf was coated with dressing, but that there was no residual dressing on the plate gives me an indication that the kichen has rigorous standards and that may be a better clue that the food will taste good to me. Ultimately, you will like a restaurant if the food tastes good to you, but there are qualitative standards that we can use to communicate about food that are not reliant on our taste.

You want the names of all the six star chefs? I mean the chefs with six stars in one year?

Michelin first published a guide in 1900. It not only did not award stars to restaurants, but it did not list restaurants. It only listed hotels and places to get tires, gas and auto repairs. It was a guide for chauffeurs and vélocipédistes. Hotels had one, two or three stars, but the stars were only an indication of price and comfort. Until 1920 the guide was given away free as advertising for Michelin, although it also earned money by selling advertising in the Guide. In 1920, it was first sold. In 1923, restaurants were listed separately from hotels. Before that, it was assumed the driver would eat where he slept. Stars were assigned according to comfort and price, but without any gastronomic value. These stars evolved into the current fork and spoon symbols. It 1926 Michelin first recognized gastronomic importance by awarding certain restaurants one black star for renowned cuisine. In 1931 the two and three star levels were introduced in the provinces and then for restaurants in Paris two years later. The Michelin Guide did not publish during WWII, but in 1944, the Military Intelligence Division of the War Department in Washington, DC reprinted the 1939 edition For official use only. In '45 the Michelin Guide returned. In '46 a few restaurant received a star and it was the first use of the symbol many refer to as a macaron. The two star rating returned in '48 and it was not until '51 that we saw three star restaurants again.

We paid about 300 € for lunch for two at l'Astrance this fall. We had the smaller of the two tasting menus as I recall. We had a moderately priced bottle of wine. I'm sure we had sparkling water and coffee. I also recall we had a couple of glasses of champagne that together were probably almost as expensive as the bottle of wine. Aperitifs are the first thing I'd eliminate if I was trying to economize. Goumard has a pricey carte, but there's also a prix fixe that's reasonable. It's a set menu with no choice.

As an aside about dress in Spain's top restaurants, I'd say that maybe ten years ago I'd have thought of Spaniards as among the most over dressed and conservative of diners. That may have come from seeing them as tourists in French restaurants, but I think there's been a major shift in attitudes in Spain in terms of dress. This is especially true once you leave Madrid. Of course this is the trend in France and perhaps all over as well. Three stars no longer necessarily means jacket and tie. We enjoyed Santceloni, we weren't really wowed by La Broche, but Coque was impressively rewarding. Of those three, La Broche was the only one in which we didn't just put ourselves in the hands of the chef or order the tasting menu, so we probably owe it another shot. It's interesting that Adrià has a connection with Casino, yet we don't hear much about it here. I'd really look forward to a report if you go.

If they were really *that* good - even frozen and out of season - there would be a market for them outside of Maine as a "gourmet" item. Perhaps not in Florida or other states which have plenty of local shrimp - but elsewhere. Robyn ← Just a few weeks ago, Chef Yasuda of Sushi Yasuda in NY, was telling us that the only raw shrimp he serves is from Maine, and that the short season hadn't started yet. I was jumping the gun by a week or two asking him if he had "amaebi" yet.

Not in my personal opinion. I don't think there are ridiculous discussions if they involve helping a member who has a concern she's able to express. A serious request was made for advice. Some answers and suggestions have been made. The only ridiculous thing would be to respond without trying to help. I'll accept that everyone so far has meant to help, in their own way, but dismissals of the discussion are not going to be helpful.My perspective on the whole issue of reservations is that in parts of the world where we have so many no shows, it would be reasonable policy for places at the table to be presold the way theater seats are. You don't reserve a seat at the opera or ballet and not have to pay if you get sick or change your mind at the last minute, nor do you reserve at both the opera house and dance hall waiting to see your mood at the last minute. Be that as it may, such a practice doesn't exist in DC, but I can't imagine anyone objecting to the general practice of asking for a credit card to hold a reservation on New Year's Eve of all times. That however, is not what this thread is about. This is about asking for a credit card a month after the reservation was made and two days before the dinner. On that issue, I don't think I'd be offended by the request. If it was reasonable a month ago, it's still reasonable and in fact, it actually offers the holder of the reservation almost a month to back out without penalty. I understand the shock, but I'm suggesting the request is probably not unreasonable. If you're determined to have dinner at the restaurant on New Year's Eve, this is the time to put up or back out. I actually have some empathy for the peeve, but if you consider that there was no harm to you in their waiting until two days before the event, should you feel peeved? I don't know. What I do know is that since there's harm, and I see no intent at insult, why would you forgo the pleasure you intended to have? If you choose not to offer your credit card and not to go, it will convince the house that your committment wasn't firm in the first place. Put yourself in their shoes. If you do go, I'll suggest that when you offer your credit card, you also tell them that they should warn they will ask for a credit card when they call to confirm. Other good advice was also offered. Get the name of anyone to whom you give your card number. Better yet, ask if you can call back and give then the card number so you're sure you're talking to someone at the restaurant. By the way, I assume everyone asks for the name of the person to whom they are speaking when they make a reservation at a restaurant. It's far easier to convince the house they made a mistake with that information in hand, when you show up and they say you don't have a reservation.

You mean like their resumes or something? Sure, you can say that X chef worked at Y restaurant and staged with Z somewhere. But is any of that important if you don't like the taste of their cuisine? Or is there something else you're thinking of here? ← Is there nothing qualitative that you can say about a restaurant's food? Is the difference between two meals nothing but a matter of taste? I'm a firm believer in relativity and the subjective nature of taste, but there are some objective standards by which one can judge, compare and recommend restaurants and those standards can be examined blind of the chef's resumes.

Below is a list of some of the aid agencies collecting donations for the victims of the deadly tsunami that struck southern Asia. The list was assembled by NPR and we pass it along for member's use. There is a thread, Earthquakes and tsunami, hit SE Asia, currently running in the Elsewhere in Asia forum. There you will find additional suggestions and links to aid organizations as well as news from and about members in the area and links to other sources of information. Action Against Hunger 247 West 37th Street, Suite 1201 New York, N.Y. 10018 212-967-7800 x108 www.actionagainsthunger.org AJJDC American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee South Asia Tsunami Relief Box 321 847A Second Avenue New York, N.Y. 10017 212-687-6200 ext. 851 www.jdc.org AmeriCares 88 Hamilton Ave Stamford, CT 06902 800-486-4357 www.americares.org American Jewish World Service 45 West 36th Street, 10th Floor New York, N.Y. 10018 800-889-7146 www.ajws.org American Friends Service Commi AFSC Crisis Fund 1501 Cherry Street Philadelphia, Pa. 19102 215-241-7000 www.afsc.org American Red Cross International Response Fund P.O. Box 37243 Washington, D.C. 20013 800-HELP NOW www.redcross.org Catholic Relief Services Tsunami Emergency P.O. Box 17090 Baltimore, Md. 21203-7090 800-736-3467 www.catholicrelief.org Direct Relief International 27 South La Patera Lane Santa Barbara, Calif. 93117 805-964-4767 www.directrelief.org Doctors Without Borders P.O. Box 1856 Merrifield, Va. 22116-8056 888-392-0392 www.doctorswithoutborders.org Food for the Hungry, Inc. Food for the Hungry Asia Quake Relief 1224 E. Washington St. Phoenix, AZ 85034 800-2-HUNGERS www.fh.org International Medical Corps Earthquake/Tsunami Relief 1919 Santa Monica Boulevard, Suite 300 Santa Monica, Calif. 90404 800-481-4462 www.imcworldwide.org Mercy Corps Southeast Asia Earthquake Response Dept. W P.O. Box 2669 Portland, Ore. 97208 800-852-2100 www.mercycorps.org Operation USA 8320 Melrose Avenue, Suite 200 Los Angles, Calif. 90069 800-678-7255 www.opusa.org Oxfam America Asian Earthquake Fund PO Box 1211 Albert Lea, MN 56007-1211 800-77-OXFAM www.oxfamamerica.org Save The Children Asia Earthquake/Tidal Wave Relief Fund 54 Wilton Road Westport, Conn. 06880 800-728-3843 www.savethechildren.org Islamic Relief USA Southeast Asia Earthquake Emergency P.O. Box 6098 Burbank, Calif. 91510 888-479-4968 www.irw.org/asiaquak US Fund for UNICEF General Emergency Fund 333 E. 38th Street New York, NY 10016 800-4-UNICEF www.unicefusa.org Stop Hunger Now SE Asia crisis 2501 Clark Ave, Suite 200 Raleigh, NC 27607 888-501-8440 www.stophungernow.org World Vision P.O. Box 70288 Tacoma, WA 98481-0288 800-56-CHILD www.worldvision.org World Concern Asia Earthquake and Tsunami 19303 Fremont Avenue North Seattle, WA 98133 800-755-5022 www.worldconcern.org World Emergency Relief 2270-D Camino Vida Roble Carlsbad, CA 92009 760-930-8001 www.worldemergencyrelief.org

Let me second Doctor's Without Borders for those who wish to donate without attachment to any particular ethnic, religious or national group. Their web site has apparently been overwhelmed, which perhaps brings some small joy in relation to the power of the net, but they are taking credit card donations at 1.888.392.0392 in the U.S.

If you can get out to Humanes de Madrid, some 26k south of Madrid, there is no finer food, nor more successfully creative, in Madrid. Of course my experience is a bit limited and some people tell me El Bohio is as good, but I believe that's even further from the city. Anyway, I believe it was named as the best new restaurant in Madrid by El Mundo last year. Vserna has touted it here in the forum and it was the best meal we've had in the immediate area. For all the creative and inventive food available, you should not neglect the roast pig, which was the last savory course on our menu, but I don't know if it's on the standard gastronomic menu. In Madrid, I'd also recommend Viridiana, although it's not in the contemporary mold as much. It still offers a very personal and creative cuisine. Locals may have new suggestions for hot spots.Coque Viridiana I see Rogelio beat me to the punch. I started this post and went out to lunch before looking up the URLs for the restaurants. I'd expect to find Coque's address on it's web site and maybe hope for a locational map, but instead I get a tricky site long on special affects that may or may not load on my computer, and short on the necessary information a prospective diner may need. The address for Coque is: C/ Francisco Encinas, 8 28970 Humanes de Madrid Tel. 91 604 02 02 - 91 604 22 37 I don't know if the second telephone number is an alternate or fax. The Michelin web site should be able to plan your route from Madrid to the restaurant.

l'Ambroisie (in French) More, also in French. As far as my French will take me it appears that his career took form at Eugénie Brazier (La Mère Brazier) in Lyon. He was later chef de partie at La Méditerranée in Paris and then second in command at La Coquille. He worked with Claude Peyrot at Vivarois before finally opening the first l'Ambroisie, on rue de Bièvre, in 1981. The stars came in '82, '83 & '86.

I know only a few of those from recent experience. I'd say those I know are in Hearth's class. Your Murray Hill may be larger than I think of Murray Hill. Others I may know, but don't choose to revisit and wonder if they might be quite in that class. I think Les Halles gets more attention that it deserves because of Bourdain, who's really no longer in the kitchen. On the other hand, Hearth may get attention because of the people who opened it, but it's the food and probably the service that get it the return visits. Tastes are very subjective, and the ultimate choice of where to dine may be entirely subjective, but there are objective things that can be said about chefs, restaurants and their food that go beyond taste.

In spite of the fact that it's been mentioned that not all requests are the same and that not all restaurants are the same, many posts seem to express a limited idea of what a restaurant might be. I can't recall seing more than one post that's dealt with the fact that there are no "side" dishes in a number of restaurants and that these restaurants are the ones a number of us might consider the best in the country. There may not even be what might be considered garnishes. Dishes are composed and the composition is dependent on a totality. That the word "restaurant" conjures up different images in our minds may be at the root of many problems between diners and staff. People go to the wrong restaurant and sometimes have no idea what they're doing there, but they're sure they're right because they're the customer. Some people get upset because they can't have the sauce on the side or substitute salad for the beans in their cassoulet and others get upset because they don't get a bread plate. The other day I was shopping for a shirt and I got upset because the fabric I wanted didn't come in the style shirt I wanted, but it never occurred to ask them if I could have it my way, or berate the management for that.

They're also a spring mushroom, if I'm not mistaken. One of the few.

I tend to prefer baked pork buns, but have developed a taste for steamed ones as well. I sorely miss the steamed poork and cabbage buns the Giuliani administration chased from Canal Street. The ones they heated on a griddle or flat bottomed wok so they had a thick crust on the bottom. Back to Mei Lah Wah, I recall large bun stuffed with a bunch of stuff that was interesting. It's too bad it's so cold today. I was going to head down that way for lunch, but the guy I'm having lunch with is not going to be open to getting as far south as Canal Street. There was a great Shanghai restaurant on Grand Street, really just a little place with great food, but it disappeared. It was replaced by a bakery from across the street. Oddly enough, their baked pork buns are not as good as when they were on the south side of the street.

I had lunch there two or three weeks ago without a reservation. We got the last table, although there were still seats at the communal table which is fine. It's noisy even at lunch when the bar isn't full. We've also got dinner reservations for later next month. January is a very slow time for most restaurants in NY.

Mei Lah Wah is that the place that's just a few doors east of New Green Bo? What a relic. The interior must be the original. Hey, the guy behind the counter may be the original as well. Great place for steamed buns.