Bux

Feel free to ask that sort of question. Let me ask in return why you feel anyone is expecting to be disappointed, or even hoping to be. I don't sense that. I see signs of the opposite. There are those who worry they will not get their money's worth. Many of us, myself included, see dining as a sort of hobby not unlike buidling model airplanes, stamp collecting, visiting museums or attending the opera. There's an element of intellectual appreciation and a desire to understand the food and chef's work in the same terms one might follow the progress of a painter or playright. If I've memtioned that I've seen all of Truffaut's films, would you think I was collecting merit badges? If someone flew all over Europe rushing from opera house to opera house to attend performances, would that indicate an interest in opera or would they be criticised for shallow motives? What do you mean by seamless?

We try to get a copy of the menu and particularly of the exact tasting menu we've eaten to serve as a reminder in lieu of complete notes. Sometimes we eat at a restaurant with friends who enjoy good food, but not with the same obsessive interest we have. Under those circumstances, it's difficult, or at least rather rude, to take notes and the conversation may not revolve around the food to the extent it might if my wife and I were eating alone. Come to think of it, we are having dinner soon at the Fat Duck with such a couple.

The modertators here are an anarchistic lot. Perhaps there's a bit of a backlash and an attempt to keep things lively and friendly and encourage debate and inclusion. A separate thread on car rental hints might have been a good idea in retrospect. As for off topic on the board, the France board is found in the Restaurants, Dining and Travel (Europe) section of eGullet.com. We've focused on the restaurants and dining, but anything that enables you to get from meal to meal easier or cheaper, deserves inclusion. When it comes to dealing with the intricacies of auto rentals and leases abroad, I tend to suggest finding a good travel agent with experience in the field to represent your interests. It's one of the things they can still do at no cost to you. Obviously that's not an unbiased opinion and your milage may vary. Further disclosure would say that the pun was intended. If you go it on your own, AutoEurope and some of the other companies will bargain and can be expected to meet the lowest price you find elsewhere.

I've not spent enough time in the tropics to be a connoisseur (or snob?) of mangoes. My wife grew up in the tropics and has very definite opinions on the subject. Perhaps it is that reason that she has given up buying the type of mango with which she is familiar from childhood and will now only buy the "Chamgagne" mangoes we find in Chinatown. It may not be that they are so much better, but that they do not disappoint. Their skin is yellow, not the red and green we are most used to seeing and they are rather flat and much smaller in size. To me they have a bit of a citrus taste so they are never cloyingly sweet. As with other mangoes, I have a hard time telling when they are ripe until I peel them. The first one we peeled was inedibly unripe although the color and aroma indicated otherwise. Perhaps it had just been too long since we had one to try.

JD, I think you're correct in noting that we should attempt to answer people's questions in the belief they know what they want and then offer our own subjective advice for reference or consideration. I'm probably on the ferris wheel with that thought, but I think it's worth repeating. Michelin and GM offer a corporate list of restaurants with rankings, GM offers some interesting text (in French) as well, but eGullet does not recommend anything. What you get here is a lot of personal advice that may often be contradictory, but is nonetheless perhaps more interesting. Thanks for the link to your review. I should imagine Chowhound does not claim the sole copyrights to your review and you should feel free to repost your own work here even if previously published on the web. I'm not sure if this book has been discussed previously here or not. I haven't read it, but those who have might want to discuss it in a separate thread.

Let me interject a note of travel advice, specifically on car rentals. Generally speaking, you will get the best rental rates if you are a North American resident with US driver's license and passport, by making your reservation on this side of the Atlantic. I've heard of people who have used the web to make the reservation with the US office even though they were in Europe at the time. I don't know if that works. I know my wife has had clients who have called from Europe to have her make the reservation here. Ten minutes later they pick up their car in Europe. The cost of the call is a drop in the bucket compared to the savings. The cost of a single day's rental is quite excessive and the best rates require a mimimum of three days. An intinerary that combines mulitple cars and trains may often be your best bet, but it is likely to be an uneconomical solution. There are so many great restaurants in France, and some of the two stars are as good as other three stars in many people's opinions that it's hard to cover them all in one trip even with a liver to spare. I'm not sure there's any single restaurant that's universally considered a must. Ducasse, Bras, Veyrat--there's always someone who prefers one to the other and someone who won't place all of those in his top five. Not every dish offered by a three star restaurant is worthy of the chef's reknown either. Go for the specialties, but be prepared for a relative disappointment based on subjective taste if nothing else. That's a good reason to have an intellectual appreciation for food as well as a sensual one. Not about cars, but to continue on the objective versus the subjective appreciation of food, one of the things I love about fastronomic menus is that they invariable offer a dish or two I would never order. This is both the opportunity to learn something and sometimes develop a new appreciation. At worst, it will be an interesting experience and part of a larger meal.

Apologies are hardly necessary for that post. I think we're changing the nature of unline discussion and our members seem to have the capacity to read long posts if they stay focused. I think you offered a good personal evaluation of the restaurant that many should find useful, especially if they haven't been there, or been there but haven't learned how to appreciate it.

I remember seeing wine included with degustation menus at least ten years ago in France, but I don't recall if the first time I ran across it, the wines were paired with each course or if it was just a matter of a white with the hors d'oeuvres and fish and red with the meats. With the possible exception of a wine sold with a dessert or two from time to time, I've never seen it as anything but an option and it's no more a gimmick to soak the customer than is a degustation menu. While it's nice to see a wine develop during a meal, I think it's likely that six or eight people having dinner to gether will order a different wine with each course. With a restaurant offering a set menu likely to be taken by many on the same night, it's easy for them to propose a glass of different wines with each course to every table at a good price. It's no more an affectation than choosing the garnishes for the dish. Let's go to the Craft thread to pick up that discussion. I believe it can be carried to extremes, but it's certainly a service in concept allowing the diner to taste more wines, just as the degustation menu allows one to taste more dishes. Some people tend to shy away from tasting menus and others are drawn to them. The is the case with paired wines. As far as I'm concerned, the more options the better.

Sounds familiar. The problem with large meals with a group is that the bottles keep on coming.

L'Astrance is a special place and very hard to classify. For all it's apparent casualness and lack of caviar on the menu, it's very fine cuisine and the creation of talented professionals. It just sort of breaks the traditional mold. One star in Paris, although there are many restaurants with one star, is also a more significant accomplishment than one star in most other parts of France.

I suspect that's true of most online message boards as well as cocktail parties, but it's a good point. I think eGullet.com has done quite well in raising the standards for online discussions, but we're always in danger of repeating ourselves and we should thank you for pointing it out, although I suspect many of us will not heed the message quickly or easily. It appears to be inherent in the medium With a stress on the "almost," I'm inclined to agree or I wouldn't have made comment in the first place. Nevertheless, everyone has to approach France in his own way. It's also the reason I mentioned age and other factors. I consider myself fortunate that I was able to discover France and French food as a student with little knowledge of food. Sometimes I feel we robbed our daughter of that discovery. At 11 years of age, her first meal in France was with us at a restaurant with a GaultMillau rating of 14 and all she could say was that her meal was awful and not as good as she was used to eating on a weekday nght at home. A one star restaurant the next night gave her some pause and dinner at Troisgros convinced her the trip was worth making. She returned to spend time as a college student and discover a new goat cheese every day from her favorite shop and to slowly find the cafes and bistros with the best cheap food. Jordyn's stated that the goal is "to pick out a few excellent places to eat, and build the rest of a trip around them." and went on to say " I've taken a similar approach on several recent trips, and found the results to be quite satisfactory." My responsibility is to make a counter suggestion to the extent that I think it needs to be considered, but to consider myself that members know themselves best. To that end I suggest stopping at charcuteries, epiceries, laiteries and patisseries for a picnic lunch, snack food or just to window shop. The little places alongside the road or on back streets of villages may have a siren's call. If heard, they may give pause about where to eat on the next trip or they may scare one away from unstarred restaurants. France is no longer the country where you can't get a bad meal as it was when I first returned with my wife after my student trip.

Are we creating a generation of dining monsters here? I used to be embarrassed about taking notes. Now, I feel guilty that they're not complete. Has anyone ever thought about wearing a "wire" so they could tape the dinner conversation. I'm not sure I'd want to transcribe the good parts and have to listen to three hours of chewing.

People steal all sorts of things from restaurants. I take paper table tents asking diners not to smoke in the dining room. From Michel Bras, I have: Pour le bient-être de nos hôtes, nous vour invitons à réserver au salon les plaisirs du tabac. Merci. From Regis Marcon: Pour goûter au plaisir du cigar et de las cigarette, nous vous proposons de passer au salon Somewhere, I have another similar message from Andre Daguin when he was chef owner of the Hotel de France in Agen. Alas in much of France, the joke remains true that all restaurants have a no smoking section and at your request, they'll be happy to declare your table the no smoking section.

Steve Martin, I much better understand your comments regarding cheese when you place it squarely in the context of a tasting menu--especially when it's a long menu of small courses. I understand your point better. In some cases even the preselection of a single cheese, with or without, a garnish might be appropriate. As for bread and dessert, I understand your "fire the pastry chef and get a real baker." Bread baking and pastry are two separate metiers. While some chefs may make great desserts and some pastry chefs may make great bread, one shouldn't expect or assume that to be the case in most situations. A great restaurant whould have both a bread baker and a pastry chef in my mind. Sometimes it's wonderful to experience a bottle of wine over the course of a meal and see how the wine develops in that short period. At other times, especially with an intricate tasting menu, a pairing of wine with each course proves far more interesting--and I'm not of the opinion that one particular wine is invariably the only choice with most dishes. I've seen it in Paris 15 years ago and more and more chefs are beginning to offer this. Perhaps that's more true in the US than in France. I don't know about the UK. (In both the US and the UK, I expect I am speaking of a limited segment of restaurants anyway.) Often wines by the glass are limited to a small selection in most restaurants and one has to hope that special bottles are opened to offer with a tasting menu. The ideal solution is to dine with six or seven others and have the whole wine list at your disposal for a single glass with each course. Sweet wines have become a subject of great interest, although I can't claim any great knowledge. On the whole, Spanish food and wine is still to be discovered by us. I've had a few wines from Navarra described as Dulce de Moscatel, as well as a similar one from the south. They are not unlike desert Muscats from Beaumes-de-Venise and the Languedoc. I've not had the darker one you describe, but have heard of them. I plan on doing some field research on our next trip.

Now you tell me. We've been pretty happy with the Danesi Gold, but haven't been able to get it for a while, so we've been trying other coffees and have not been pleased. Went to Dean and Deluca and found our Danesi Gold (100% Arabica) but it was two and a half times the price we had been paying, so we thought we'd try the Lavazza 100% Arabica. First cup was disppointing and crema-less. Esilda figured she was careless. Perhaps not. Breakfast will tell. Does anyone in the NY area use Danesi Gold? Where do you get it and what do you pay?

We had lunch at Can Fabes about two years ago. We hadn't originally planned on dining there when we first drew up our itinerary. I was still skeptical about high end cooking in Spain and truthfully I hadn't heard much about Santamaria at the time. Two e-mail conversations convinced me to go there. Interestingly enough one was with our own Steve Shaw who had met the chef in Asia. The other was with a Spanish food critic who assured me that the restaurant would be three stars even if it was in France. It was too far out of the way of our planned driving route, so we cut our sightseeing short in Barcelona, picked up our car a day early and drove up for lunch on our last day in the city. We might have gone for dinner if we could have found a place to stay. Unfortunately San Celoni is a small town and Michelin shows one small hotel. Other people I had talked to at the time advised driving up from Barcelona as well. We were most impressed by the food, and by the sommelier who chose reasonably priced and interesting wines that very much enhanced our lunch. Unfortunately it didn't enhance the drive back, not that we had any problem, but we didn't have a dessert wine. However, we discussed dessert wines and asked for recommendations which helped us later when we were looking for wines to bring to our friends in France. Recently I heard that El Raco de Can fabes might have added rooms to the restaurant, but we learned last week that this in the works, but there are no rooms at the moment. I wish I had more of a clue about the area, but we'll be checking it out next month as my opinion about Catalan food has undergone great change in the past two years. So yes, it's an awesome place, but I have no good advice on where to stay. I also distinctly remember the impressive hunk of hot foie gras and the espardenyes. This sea cucumber is unlike any I'd seen before and has been discussed in some detail in one of the other threads in the Iberian board. Beyond that I don't much agree with what else has been said in this thread. I disagree, strongly. A good cheese course is no more anarchistic than a bottle of wine and no more takes control from a chef than does drinking wine made by a winemaker rather than drinking some concotion made by the chef. What you describe seems like a rather traditional pairing of fresh cheese with honey, sugar or preserves. Sometimes it can be pleasant, but I'd rarely take it over a selection of fine French cheeses. I truly don't understand the blanket nature of this statement. Why would one not have a red wine in a tasting menu when it was the obvious choice with one of the courses? I'd also be curious to know about the dark dessert wine. Was it a Spanish sherry, a Port or a French wine such as Maury or Banyuls? Sauternes, a good Spanish moscatel, or any number of sweet white wines are wonderful with some desserts, but others, such as chocolate are best enhanced with a Port or Banyuls sort of wine. Perhaps Klc hit upon something I overlooked in reading this. Do you think it's not possible to precede a red with a white and follow it with a sweet white? I'm not at all convinced that every course needs a new wine, but it's certainly a reasonable option if glasses of wine to suit are available. While I love a Sauternes, Coteaux du Layon or some sort of sweet wine with cold torchon of foie gras, I'm of mixed opinion about hot foie gras which I often prefer with red wine, depending on the garnish to a great extent. I'm not sure what you mean here and will look forward to reading your diatribe. Do you feel that the chef should create his own deserts and not have a pastry chef or just that the pastry chef should be subservient to the chef? I'm inclined to disagree just on the basis that I don't think one can arbitrarily make a blanket statement that's applicable to all chefs or restaurants. On the whole, I've had better desserts from restaurants where the pastry chef was an artist in his own right and worked hand in hand with the chef, but I don't believe that has to be a hard and fast rule.

Lizziee exaggerates. There are restaurants that turn tables. Most notable are the brasseries, but many of the smaller restaurants and bistros do as well. To the best of my knowledge l'Astrance does not. Lizzee, do I know you well enough to kid that you can afford not to eat at restaurants that turn tables?

No shortage of good restaurants in Lyon and I really like Lyon. I've been there as often as I've been to Paris in the past few years, but Lyon is not Paris and I'd not stay one day in Paris and two in Lyon on my first trip to France. On the other hand you can really get to know Lyon in two days, which is more than I can say for Paris. Should you stop in Lyon, I'd make it before or after the car rental. You not only don't need a car in Lyon but it would be a nuisance. The Lyon airport (St. Exupéry) is quite far from the city and I'd use the TGV (which I believe Air France can sell as a "flight" leg). You can go from downtown Lyon directly to CDG where there is a TGV station. While the flight is less time, with check in times and the long ride in from the airport, you can do better to or from downtown Lyon by TGV.

As much as I respect Michelin and their judgement, I'm happy to see good word of mouth drive prices as much as stars. Bear in mind that these are all inclusive prices. That is they include tax and service. A tab of $72.50 in NY is 78.50 with tax and $90.25 with a 15% tip. I forget the tax on restaurant meals in Paris, but it's much higher than the 8.25% in NYC. We're also discussing a gastronomic tasting menu of perhaps a dozen courses with the laborous work in the kitchen as well as the serving and cleaning plates after all those courses, it's not just dinner. Ducass, a three star restaurant will set you back anywhere from 190 to 250 euros for set menus of fewer courses without wine and don't expect to find very inexpensive wines on the list. Hélène Darroze, another one star, offers menus from 59.50 to 109.75 euros without wines. Furthermore the least expensive set menu at l'Astrance was 58 euros (at least when the surprise menu with wine was 76). So we're not talking about just an ordinary three course meal here. It's not a matter of calculating how many stars you eat for how much money. At Carré des Feulliants, I've had both the least expensive lunch special and the full blown degustation at dinner. The latter was more than twice the price of the special, but I felt it was a much better value. Of course both were 2 star meals, or rather meals in a two star restaurant. Michelin has a few caveats about interpreting their stars. "...beware of comparing the star given to an expensive de luxe establishment to that of a simple restaurant ..." Even at three stars it's noted that "One eats here extremely well, sometimes superbly." [My emphasis] Stars are given to restaurants, but there's no Good Housekeeing seal of approval on any single meal. People have been disappointed here and at almost every single restaurant in the world at one time or another. I'd be very surprised if the same menu were differently priced on weekends. Usually in Paris, the same food at lunch as dinner will be the same price. As I've noted, prix fixe lunch menus exist at what may be bargain prices, but they are rarely the same food as on the more expensive dinners. Still, it's an interesting concept. A sliding scale according the demand. Most Parisian restaurants are closed on Sundays and many are closed on Saturdays as well. Maybe they can be bribed to stay open.

This information is later than that of a message I responded to in another thread. I'll try to edit that thread. Of course Supply and demand will do this to prices. A restaurant is always likely to be a better deal when it's new than after it's discoered. Likewise a restaurant is best seen just before it gets it's third star for several reasons. A rise in prices is only one them. Margaret Pilgrim has made the same comment to me, either online or privately, but I'm sure she said it. The 16ieme arrondissement is easier to get to than the suburbs. That may save les Magnolias. The trip certainly gave Patricia Wells a hard time and she's at home in Paris, or should be. I haven't been to les Magnolias, but from what I hear of it from reliable sources such as Scott, the Herald Tribune reivew sounded like a crankly old lady's comments.

Laguiole is not that big. Bras is out of town, about 6 kilometers away up the moutain, but it's a good wide well paved road. I dislike not being able to stay where I dine and especially where I wine, but it's an easy drive back to town. Another choice is lunch and a good walk around the property and then a drive to wherever you're sleeping. Lunch doesn't have the same luxury as dinner, perhaps, and it does eat up the afternoon--especially a grand lunch. I'm also not sure if Bras serves the big menu at lunch, but I'd guess he does as he can't accommodate all the people who want to eat at dinner time. How many meals a day do you eat? That's not a trick question. We tend to stay with just a salad for lunch if we intend having a really grand dinner. At other times we might have two real meals, but one is at a very small bistro and often limited to the least filling dishes. Le Vieux Pont in Belcastel is not far away. Les luxurious and less expensive than Bras, but charming and comfortable. I coulnd't do justice to lunch at Bras and dinner at Belcastel on the same day. You may be younger and up to it. At each place, there should be the temptation to go for the bigger menus. :confused: Le Vieux Pont is obviously an old personal favorite of Graham's and mine. Le Domaine de Barres is a new one, although after only one meal, I am hesitant to be too confident about the food. It's also not far from Regis Marcon, which is clearly a step up the scale. I trust Mercadier, the young chef at the Domaine de Barres will not be insulted to hear me say that. I think he's off to a great start. Nevertheless it's a nice place to stay and as it's not yet listed in the Michelin, the sort of place that might not be booked full. Langogne has some nice shops for browsing food. Great charcuteries and stuff. Just looking in the windows of fine traditional country food shops in France is a thrill for me, even if I have to limit purchases to canned and jarred goods. Artisanal jams and creme de marrons figured heavily in my return flight baggage on the last trip. Sadly few of them end up not being given away to friends and family. I wonder if I'm being helpful or distracting. My wife complains that as she's trying to finalize our itinerary, I'm always suggesting alternates. It's true that no matter how little terrirtory we cover, I always feel I'm bypassing too many restaurants that deserve my attention, even if they have no stars. Sometimes it's a relief whan I'm told I can't get a reservation as it narrows down my choices.

Chefs: Arpège: Alain Passard Grand Vefour: Guy Martin The title is "Chef." The fastest way I know to get information is to do a google search. My guess is that chef's names will pop up on the search page if you enter the restaurant. If not, they'll be on the first review you open. Some restaurants are hard to find on the net and "arpege" will need other qualifiers not to be overwhelmed with music pages.

Indeed the price has risen. From my credit card records I see we paid 268 dollars for four surprise menus that included wine last July. We drank three bottles--I don't know if that riased the bill or not. It was warm and we drank numberous bottles of water and we all had coffee. At that price, I thought this might well have been the biggest bargain of my life. I might have thought it was a great buy if that price didn't cover beverages. Was that the surprise menu with wine, or were the two glasses of champagne all you had to drink? The current Michelin shows a price of 76 euros for the biggest menu with wine included. At under 70 dollars, I coudn't beat that price for comparable food in NY. I'd probably have a problem coming very close as I don't know any place with comparable food that has wines inexpensive enough to help keep the total tab so reasonable. Twenty-four dollars for a glass of champagne seems a bit excessive for l'Astrance, although I'm sure it would not be more than other restaurants in Paris might charge. I've found that aperatifs usually seem out of line with the cost of the meal and are best declined to keep to a budget of any sort. I see from another of Scott's posts that the price of the menu has increaed since Michelin published the 2002 edition a few months ago. By the way, only the Crab and avacado ravioli sound familiar. The rest has changed.

From what I've seen, dress codes are almost non existent, or at least gone to hell. Nevertheless, at least one member has noted that jackets are given to diners who come in shirtsleeves at least in one, I believe, three star restaurant in Paris. I've been told by others that they'se seen diners without ties in at least one three star four fork & spoon restaurant in Paris. the Michelin's crossed fork & spoon is a good guide to the elegance of a restaurant and consequently to the level of dress expected. What you wear in Paris may depend a bit on whether you feel comfortable being a bit over dressed or underdressed. I'd be inclined to wear a tie at all of those restaurant except for Darroze, where I'd wear a knit shirt and jacket perhaps. You might feel comfortable less formally dressed. A lot depends on personal style and how comfortable you are being the most, or least, formally dressed person in the room. You can call ahead and ask if there's a dress code or suggested dress code. Hotel concierge's are often a good source of that sort of information, but a concierge may also base his answer on the style of his hotel to some extent. I don't know the Riviera that well. In top places elsewhere in the Provinces, dress varies considerably from shirtsleeves to tie and jacket in the dining room of elegant restaurants. I find that the French are much more comfortable in a room I find sweltering. I often enter a restaurant with a jacket and then end up giving it to a waiter or draping it over the back of my chair.

Le Vieux Pont is a gem in many ways. I suppose I didn't mention it for several reasons. The current itinerary is restricted to multistarred Relais et Chateaux inns, and I'm afraid Le Vieux Pont would just seem a little less luxurious rather than a real alternative. It's also too close to Bras and if there's a spare day in the trip, one would hope it was at a better spot to break the drive. Le Vieux Pont certainly has rooms that are quite comfortable and charming, but the comforts are simpler (and more to my style and taste) than those at most Relais Chateaux. The dining room service and ambience is not nearly as spiffy as as that found at three star restaurants, or even the more expensive two stars, but the cooking at it's best holds it's own against two star kitchens. This is a case where a talented chef knows the limits of the region and caters to them. The 23 euro menu is not spectacular but it also would not insult the taste of any fine bec. The 62 euro menu is easily two star food in my mind. I would just describe the service as more relaxed. Nevertheless, Michel Bras' 81 euro menu of the same number of courses is just as good a buy, if not better in it's own way, although I don't think there's a two star difference in terms of food alone. I think it's the scale of operation that keeps le Vieux Pont at one star. Having finaly eaten at Bras, I found it interesting that the food at le Vieux Pont, much less resembles Bras' food today than it did many years ago. I've read that Nicole Fagegaltier was strongly influenced by Bras. Today she seems to be developing a more complex style influenced by sources perhaps in Paris and maybe even moreso, Catalunya. One more point in comparing the two, and I hope neither are offended by my comparison, is that the four courses, cheese and dessert (at Vieux Pont it's a panoply of desserts) is the largest menu offered by Nicole Fagegaltier, while it's the smaller of the two menus offered at Michel Bras. You can enjoy a good meal at both, but it's a waste to seek out Bras unless you're absolutely serious about eating. This is not to say that a serious gastronome could not think of both as destination. Once more, "gastronome" comes to my rescue. "Gourmet" is too abused to have much meaning and "foodie" does not describe the people I see at Bras or le Vieux Pont.