Bux

I don't know if I misread you either, but you were not the butt of my post. I don't find that you need to categorize or rank restaurants that way others do. BH is s superb restaurant for some of the people most of the time, a very good restaurant for many of the people most of the time, an excellent choice for some people some of the time and a poor choice for some at times. For example, it doesn't suit me well for lunch--it's not open. I don't really care if you like it or not and that's not personal. I just don't think it's all that interesting to know if someone likes a restaurant or not. What is interesting is to read what one likes or dislikes about a place. I think you've added to the store of useful information that might help others decide if and when to try Blue Hill, although as I've said, it seems as if one is going to feel like a rank outsider here unless one has been there and has an opinion. The "any publicity is good publicity" school holds that it doesn't matter what you say about an artist, work of art or business, as long as you keep talking about it. What I said was that the proximity of the table says "bistro." The paper table cloths (over real cloth) also say "bistro." Neither speak as loudly as the food, perhaps and thus The first time diner may not get a clear message of what to expect, which may be exactly what the chef/owner wants. As Marcus notes, the distinctions between restaurant and bistro are getting fuzzier by the day, not only in NYC, but in Paris. Artisanal, which is so clearly modeled to look like a brasserie and which does so quite successfully, calls itself a bistro. I would never refer to it as a bistro.

I'm reminded of the time my wife went back for second helpings of the jellied pig's feet at a wedding reception in Brittany. Unquestionably, it broke the ice and eased our acceptance, but it also elicited comments such as "My parents ate that, but we don't have much of a taste for that these days." That appreciation is widespread in Europe, but it's probably strongest in rural cooking. To a small extent we all appreciate the quality a calves foot gives to the stock or the sauce, but not so many Americans appreciate at rich gelatinous bowl of tripe. I think you're correct however and it's appreciated tooa greater degree in Chinese food than European, both historically and today in urban areas. Balance, I suppose like everything else, is relative. I think every western chef will claim his dishes are balanced, but it's not in the sense that Chinese chefs use the term. Japanese food as well seeks a balance that may be more like that sought in Chinese food and unlike western food which I feel seeks balance by reining in the extreme flavors more often than juxtaposing them. That's a random thought. Maybe I'm off base and might not be able to defend that.

Define good time.

Perhaps. Correction, undoubtedly you do prefer pecorino. Perhaps I might as well. I should try it. Pecorino with baked onions is nice as well.

In my case, I trust you're not referring to what my daughter calls a "senior moment." I am a big fan of "context" which I regard as kin to "relative." It's my distinct impression that Mr. P. is more a fan of "absolute," than he is of "relative," but no doubt he will explain how I've taken "context" out of context here. Perhaps it's interesting to examine the context in which I found BH. I've been a big fan of Daniel Boulud's cooking since he opened the first Daniel. I find the food of Blue Hill and that of Daniel excellent foils for each other. I find much of the food at Blue Hill offers not so much a simplification of what I like about Daniel's food, but a distillation. Understand that together with my innate preference for Bach over Beethoven and factor in the references to what's fascinating to me about some contemporary food in Europe, particularly Spain, among other things. I know better than to argue with your first premise. As for the brunt of bad press, there's no such thing. Either members have already visited Blue Hill and formed their own opinion or they've discovered they are out of the loop and need to get to Blue Hill or be considered terminally clueless.

And the Italians do raw fennel very well when they're not trying to cook it. Shaved finely with a bit of olive oil, maybe some lemon juice and shave parmesan.

I've picked out a few more than seven and probably more than I need to prove you're wrong. Whoops, sorry, I think we're actually in agreement here if I understand the point behind the sarcasm. There's a certain advantage to putting yourself in the chef's hands at the right restaurant and I believe this is that sort of restaurant. Nevertheless, as I've said before we don't all look for the same experience when we dine. Some of us tend to gravitate to the tasting menu whereever we go, some of us tend to be drawn to the tasting menu when they respect the chef and others tend to shy away from tasting menus, finding the style inherent to tasting menus, not to their taste. At this point there's really no point in reiterating what it is that I like about letting the chef feed me either here or elswhere.

Those following this discussion know my appreciation for BH is similar to Steve P's in some ways but distinctly different in others. I feel that it's very subtle food and I would suggest that for some diners, the understanding and appreciation for the food grows with each visit. If the tasting menus follow the meals ordered from the carte, it may be that they're more appreciated precisely because there's a cumulative factor in play and not because the chefs have composed the meal. On the other hand, there may be some added value in having a meal composed by the chef. I also feel that because their food is so gentle and subtle, it's often best appreciated in small courses in an orchestrated meal. A lot of this is subjective. Is Beethoven better than Bach? Why would anyone care to seek the answer to that. I prefer Bach, but it's a matter of taste. I might suggest that lovers of Bach are more likely to appreciate Blue Hill, but I'm not willing to bet heavily on that. Even that reminds me of Amazon's "those who bought this book also purchased such and such." Sure, but the first book is number one on my list and the other three weigh in at number 874, 962 and maybe seven digits for the last choice. Hell I might even be willing to burn one of their suggestions. Even after you know people's tastes, you can't predict what they will like. How I rate the restaurant is how I'd rate the options of three courses from the carte and a tasting menu and letting the chef cook for me which is usually the tasting menu. Which option I might take would not affect my rating of the restaurant. Of course I could rate every single dish on the menu as well, but the rating for the restaurant in partially based on having choices. Everyone I know speaks highly of Babbo, but what I remember most of my one meal was a side order of fennel that verged on raw. We didn't eat it and asked the waitress to relay our complaint to the kitchen. She told us to note it on the comments card that comes with the check. There was an unbelievable compounding of the unacceptable from a restauant at half the price. The check arrived without the comment card, but with the full charge for the uneaten and inedible fennel. I have yet to have a dish at Blue Hill that wasn't perfectly prepared in well over a dozen meals, all three or more courses in length. I may have encountered a rough edge here and there in the service, but nothing like that in your face "I brought it all the way from the kitchen to your table, my job is done" 'tude. What I find particularly interesting about BH is how the very subtle dishes grab my complete focus. What's fascinating is how a gentle dish I've had some time ago, will rivet me again as if it was the first time I've tasted this combination of flavors. If someone else doesn't get that, well they don't. Life might really be boring if we all reacted the same way. I think they are artists and I hope they depend on positive feedback from a few connoisseurs of their work rather than a mass audience. The way I look at it, the more people who don't like the food, the more special I will be when I go there and the better I will eat. Now I see there are posts made while I was composing this message. I will have to read and answer them, but perhaps I should disagree that my love of BH is dependant on my dining in Parisian bistros. It might be, but I have been more conscious of how Parisian bistros have been disappointing when I compare them to Blue Hill which has pretty much become my paragon of the urbane and sophisticated, but not luxurious restaurant.

Foo Joy. I'm not sure how we stumbled into it, or why, the first time. I liked it a lot although present memories are dim now. I seem to recall steamed bread or buns that many people ate in lieu of, or in addition to, rice. It was a simple down to earth place that served diners of modest means, but the food was both delicious and different. If it's reincarnated anywhere, I'd love to know as well. If a Fukien restaurant were to post here, they'd have a ready audience.

I understand your hesitancy to embrace the dumpling wrappers and I won't under emphasize the importance of the wrapper. To some extent their success in my mind (or relative to my palatte) may, to a great degree, be that they are unique. I have to go back to Sweet & Tart and try their watercress and shrimp dumplings. I've been there once or twice, but haven't been all that comfortable with the menu yet. When you mentioned chicken topped with golden sands two posts back I immediately thought of the chicken dish Dim Sum GoGo calls "with fried garlic shoots," or soemthing like that. Truthfully, I don't know where else that kind of food is found in Chinatown. Funky Broome comes to mind. I've really enjoyed some of the food there, but have found the noise level deafening and about half the seats seem to be positioned so that a spotlight is in the diner's eyes. At some point the ambience starts to play a factor in my choice of restaurants.

I'm not looking to knock Ping or Ping's, but I am looking to push the odds in my favor of getting a good meal when I choose to eat in a Chinese restaurant. I"m well aware than in the world of French and American restaurants in New York City, popularity, price and financial success is rarely in line with the quality and value of the food (as I measure quality and value ). There's no reason it should be otherwise in terms of Chinese restaurants in Chinatown. At one point in my life I seemed to have access to whatever grapevine kept track of moving chefs. These days I have a better source of information regarding French restaurants. Twenty or thirty years ago that information would have useless to me with my budget. Today I can look at it as a trade off, albeit a momentary trade off--eGullet should raise all our restaurant intelligence levels. Indeed, I can think of at least two Chinese restaurants that currently have my trade as a result of this web site. I look forward to my next meal at Ping's, but you can be sure I am not walking in off the street all alone.

I think Cantonese food has a bad reputation among less knowledgeable fans of Chinese food in NY. Cantonese food is likely the most common Chinese restaurant food in, and outside, or NY. A lot of it is neither good nor authentic. Many New Yorkers were bowled over by the spiciness of Sichuan and later Hunan food and then by Shanghai food as they became available in restaurants. Partially diners were impressed because they offered new tastes, but to some extent these restaurants arrived when there was a western audience for better Chinese food. The Cantonese restaurants had to overcome a long history of catering to American tastes while the sophiticated audiences went over the newer cuisines. From the little I know, Cantonese may be the finest of all the Chinese regional cuisines. I think it's the most delicate. Ed will let us know if I'm wrong.

I'm well aware of that, but many of the people I've taken to Dim Sum GoGo are not even from the NY area. Knowing how much gloppy sauce I can run across in Chinatown, I can only imagine what passes for Chinese food in some parts of the country. A French friend who always shied away from eating Chinese food, was an instant devotee of Dim Sum GoGo.

Missing from this discussion is one of my favorite restaurants not just for dim sum and dumplings, but for dinner as well. That's Dim Sum GoGo. I know they've changed chefs at least once since they opened with a chef from Hong Kong and perhaps I've noticed some changes--not for the better--but it's still a favorite. Although in some ways the offerings are limited in scope, the array of dumplings is fascinating and very fine to my taste. Although I've had disappointments on the dinner menu, and those have been with the most expensive dishes such as lobster, I've been exceptionally pleased with many of the inexpensive offerings and have found the vegetables often the prize dishes or the best component of the non-vegetarian dishes. One of the things noted by most of the people I bring there is the almost complete absence of sauces. I think many westerners are turned off Chinese food by the gloppy corn starched sauces all too common in many restaurants.

In another thread. I've had this discussion with Suvir about Ping's. After a passable meal or two, we returned and had what four of us considered the worst meal we've had in Chinatown here. I understand that kitchens have off days and that some dishes are better than others in any restaurant. Even Michelin I believe, notes that in a three star restaurant one "sometimes" eats superbly well. Still, I can't believe the discrepancy between my last meal there and how others regard this restaurant. Right now on the NY board, there's a discussion about a restaurant. In the thread some members have mistaken certain comments to imply that one had to know the chef to eat well there. Although this was a misreading of what was posted, it didn't stop the expression of outrage at the possibility it was true. While Ed offers an understanding into the situation at Ping's, I am surprised that such inconsistency exists as a matter of fact.

This banquet is going to be oversubscribed in a minute. Before I get left out let me say I'm in for two people. Seriously, I don't know how we're going to handle it. My guess would be fifty applicants assuming no one finds it important enough to come to NY just for the meal. I'm just getting back up to eGullet speed after an exhausting weekend of out of town visitors. Let me join the others in welcoming Ed. This is indeed proving to be a riveting Q&A and I feel we've barely touched the surface. Chinese food is one of the great cuisines and one I've long been interested in, although most of my experience has been in very low cost restaurants with little ambience. I suspect this Q&A has found a void in eGullet. Great discussions of Chinese food have been few and far between. This thread has become a catch all and as such possibly detrimental to the structure of the Q&A, but before I go on and start some new threads, I'd like to ask Ed if inquiring about his opinion on specific restaurants would be proper or embarrassing here in the Q&A.

and probably one best posted without all the baggage. I thought that was your job here, to make us look good, or at least diplomatic. When this is expressed as a "different" foundation rather than as a "better" foundation, I think it may be easier for others to understand and appreciate. In terms of market freshness, although I see both Dan and Mike at Union Square on market days, they also get delivery at the restaurant from some of the same purveyors as well as from their own Blue Hill farm and other select suppliers. The diffference might be that at the Greenmarket, they might run across an unexpected item of unexpected quality and then feature it on the daily tasting menu, but some of the items I've had that were not on the printed tasting menus were probably not sourced at the Greenmarket and were foods that they were testing for potential new recipies. I think most diners would be just as happy not to be served the sort of "special" that was a dish still making test runs. I'm happy to be a guinea pig of that sort and I suspect Dan knows who among his regular clientele can be trusted to give an honest evaluation and not be offended if it doesn't work. I had a great piece of pork belly there once and fortunately arrived in the company of another couple whose range of tastes included that sort of food. I've not seen this dish on the printed menu, and wonder if the restaurant has a broad enough clientele to warrant pork belly being offered.

I'm not sure what "power" has to do with it. Surely part of going to a restaurant is the sheer pleasure of dithering over and choosing what to eat. You may or may not get better food by forgoing that pleasure but a pleasure foregone it surely is. I'm not disparaging those who enjoy perusing a menu. I often ask to see the printed "carte" even when I know I'm taking a surprise tasting menu in a restaurant. Nevertheless, for many diners, there is a need to order in the sense of telling someone what to do. The NY Times had an interesting article on this a while back. At one end of the scale are those who just can't relinquish the decision of choosing the dishes. At the other end are those who need to control well beyond asking for sauce on the side and who often return items just for the pleasure of making people jump. At the reasonable end, are many eGullet members who have expressed their interests in choosing their dishes for one reason or another.

I know you were not speaking to me and I certainly don't speak for Steve P., but I think it's worth mentioning in context here that when I order a "special" meal it's always at the invitation of the chef. While I don't speak for Steve P., who may come across as "pompass," I suspect "special" and "chef's choice of tasting menu" are being loosely interchanged in this thread. Without going back to verify my impression, it is that Steve suggested the standard tasting menu is the way to go and that if the waiter at Blue Hill says "The chef would like to cook for you," he suggests the diner should accept the offer.

Cabrales, I'm really pleased that in addition to the food report, you've chosen to reasearch and make us aware of the transportation options as well as hotel. I rather regret leaving Berasategui fit more for a siesta than the drive to our hotel reservation in Hondarribia. Peter, I'm glad to know you were able to get a good meal in a Michelin three star resataurant in Spain. I suspect so. I was truly delving into the abstract, all the while suspecting that if I had time to locate the copy of the menu I am sure we took with us when we left, my guess is that I would find a Spanish menu. Still it would be a politically correct move in that area not to offer a Spanish menu unless it was requested by a foreigner traveling in the Basque Country, although Spanish is still the operative language in the area. I don't know that I've ever received a menu in the Basque tongue, but I have some menus in Catalan.

If I was not clear in my previous post, I think the standard menu items on the everyday Blue Hill menu are among the best food served in NY. I have to say that my initial meals at Blue Hill were all three course dinners selected from the standard offerings of the day. My initial experiences were superb. Each meal made me eager to return and as a frugal man who doesn't like to spoil himself, (too much) I saw no reason to spend the extra $15 for the tasting menu. at some point, we were seduced by the tasting menus and more often than not enjoy an even better meal today, but there are few restaurants that offer what any of us can get off the menu at that price. You do not need to know anyone to eat well at Blue Hill, nor do you need to know anyone most nights to get what I get when I order the tasting menu. While I believe Steve Plotnicki knows how to get the best meal for himself out of most restaurants, it may not be the best meal for everyone, and if it is, he's happy to share the secret which should not be a secret to any experienced diner. When I recommend Blue Hill to friends, it's never with a proviso that they make any special order and always with as much confidence as I've ever recommended any restaurant. There is however, no accounting for individual tastes.

Quite a ways back in this thread now, Yvonne said " I agree there is a feeling of some innovation. The "cautious" part hits the nail on the head, as some of the dishes are neither bold enough nor flavorful enough for me." What I find remarkable is that Blue Hill can stun me with a dish that is essentially very subtle. I hope this doesn't imply I am easy to please. I suspect not. For me it's the bold flavors that are too safe a path for young chefs. I'm left feeling that was good but too obvious to draw me in. Once again, different strokes for different folks. That's the inherent problem with the Zagat guides that give you an average score. I'd rather try the restaurant that really excites a few diners in the hope it's my kind of place. That no one speaks up for the duck won't make it less of a choice for me, although I was glad to see Jaybee enjoyed it too. I think Steve Plotnicki is making a wonderful case for tasting menus in general, but even he must admit that not everyone will be pleased by putting themselves in the chef's hands. Some people have too many favorite foods or dislikes to allow themselves to enjoy whatever the chef feels like cooking and some diners just need the power inherent in ordering. Nevertheless when he says "People who do creative things for a living love catering to those who appreciate their craft. Whether it is a concert hall full of adoring fans, or a restaurant full of people who understand their cuisine, ..." he's on to something. I believe he quotes Robert Brown as calling that something connoissership. I think if one really loves and appreciates something, be it art, music, food, or even some small subset of food such as haute cuisine or hot peppers, one wants to put oneself in the hands of creator and be open for the experience. The chance of the great discovery is far more important that the possibility of a lesser experience as a general rule. Back to Blue Hill and whether that will get you the better or best meal is still a question and the answer is always going to be partially dependant on what sort of diner you are. I like the flow of the tasting menus. I like the smaller size of each course and the greater number of different courses. I like the pace of the meal that results as well. I won't swear the individual dishes are necessarily better, but there are factors that indicate they might be. We're dealing with special dishes that reflect items that caught the chef's eye at the last minute and with dishes that may well be more creatively interesting to the cooks. It's a reasonable question to ask why aren't all the dishes on the menu special, but the answers are simple and many. It's a business. Restaurants need to have that dish that's going to appeal to the person who got dragged to the restaurant by his three foodie friends. They need to have that dish that return diners insist on seeing even though everyone in the kitchen is fed up with making it. In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that I almost always let Dan and Mike cook for me, I think I'd have no trouble with a random selection of well over half the items I've seen on any menu since I've been eating at Blue Hill. Finally, when the waiter says Dan would like to cook for you, sometimes I get something special and sometimes I get the tasting menu as printed. As often as not, when I'm dining with friends I don't always know the extent of their interest in dinner and whether they will prefer a tasting menu or not. At one point my wife and I dined there regularly alone, but it's become my favorite place to introduce to friends lately.

French is still the lingua franca of food. The clientele is international. Once in Lasarte, it was hard for us to find a local who had heard of this restaurant which is outside the urban center. Berasategui is a Basque restaurant more than it is a Spanish restaurant and few people speak Basque. For practical as well as political reasons, French is a reasonable choice.

Having picked up our goose, I have to say I am annoyed that it was quite well frozen. "That's the way they come off the truck" doesn't necessarily cut it. I'm also ticked because we didn't find the liver inside the goose when it defrosted and the liver is a substantial flavor element in the stuffing. Earlier I said to Robert Brown "Robert, I think it's interesting that shops find a place in your shopping patterns and then lose it..." My wife has just reminded me that some of our shopping habits have become habits and need re-examination. Enough said for the moment, but may I need to read, rather than give, recommendations on butcher shops right now. Jason, you are correct. I don't find turkey interesting enough to choose to eat, let alone cook. I haven't been near Fairway in years and didn't realize the store on 74th Street had more than doubled in size since I was last there. It was mindboggling just to stop in for a minute. Kalustyan remains an incredible shop, but it's losing it's Armenian-middle eastern focus although even years ago it was also a good source for Indian spices. They don't seem to get daily deliveries of pita bread. Some days the bread seems fresher than others. Pistachio nuts are a strong point however. Local health food shops can be a very disappointing place to buy pistchios.