Bux

But I agree that Daniel, JG and le Bernardin should be rated higher. I think you're putting words in my mouth. I said"The cooking too is as good as if gets, but it's less intricate and in a way less obviously complex, or shall we say less formal and less recognizably four star." A simple roasted chicken at GT will be cooked as well as a simple roasted chicken at Daniel, but Daniel doesn't serve a simple roasted chicken nor does one normally go to a four star restaurant for a simple roasted chicken. That said, it may be as difficult to roast the chicken perfectly each time than it is to add the very complex garnishes you'd find at Daniel or JG. Perhaps I'm yet clear in my meaning. When I said it's less recognizably four star I meant that few people would rate it with four stars. These stars are man made and awarded on how reviewers (in the case of the Times, it's one reviewer) see the restaurant. I did not mean it was a four star restaurant in three star drag. My point was that in trying to create a four star restaurant (now why did I say that? I don't think Danny Meyer was necessarily trying to create a four star restaurant.) that didn't act like a four star restaurant they created one that isn't recognized as one by most people in spite of its strengths. As for the difference between the tavern and dining room, I suspect it's a matter of personal taste, but the food there, while very tasty, is a step further away from JG.

I think Wlifrid, Lizziee and I have all mentioned Ca L'Isidre, and it was Victor who first mentioned it to me several years ago.

Once again, Can Majo for lunch unless you're afraid the sight of scantily clad young women at the beach will cause a flow of blood from your digestive system. In which case you should have no trouble getting a less desirable indoor table at lunch. Seriously, it's the food that's the draw. But of course the market. Of the three major markets I've been in in Barcelona, La Boqueria was the most exceptional, but it may have been a matter of hitting it during the right season. We were there in the fall one time and the array of game, particularly the wild plumage of the birds was incredible. Barcelona has several covered markets that compare favorably with the central market of Lyon. I'm still a fan of French cheeses, but for fish and meat and particularly cured meats and hams, there is nothing like Barcelona.

Ya wanna step outside and discuss this. I suspect you are correct and the reasons range from positive ones to defensive ones. In terms of service, many New Yorkers are put off by the formality of French luxury restaurants and wish to separate that which has traditionally been the hallmark of a top restaurant from what they see as necessary to have a great meal. In some ways GT has been thoroughly successful in providing the same level of service you may get at Daniel or le Bernardin, but in a manner that's less informal and more comfortable to a greater cross section of New Yorkers. As a result though, those who are comfortable in a four star restaurant do not recognize it as four star service. The cooking too is as good as if gets, but it's less intricate and in a way less obviously complex, or shall we say less formal and less recognizably four star. I don't know how many will support me when I say one should want to fee as if they should dress up to eat in four star restaurant and GT is a place that prefers diners be comfortable rather than well dressed. A four star restaurant has traditionally been a formal restaurant. There's a contradiction in terms when one wants an informal restaurant to be a four star restaurant. To take this a step further, the cooking at Craft may be better than that at GT, but it's further away from providing a four star experience in my mind. Yvonne, I'm a great fan of the tavern room, but I can't agree that either the food or the service is better than in the main dining room. In terms of servers, those in the tavern are as good and knowledgeable as the servers in the restaurant, but my guess is that there are fewer per diner and that their tasks are simpler. Service, nevertheless, goes beyond the actual waiter. There are linens on the table in the dining room and much more space between diners as well as more amply sized tables. None of this may be meaningful to many of us and even less of interest if it means a pricier tab, but it's part of the service that's better in the dining room. As for the food, it's not the same menu. GT cuts costs over all by buying a side of lamb or a whole salmon. The choice pieces, the loin of lamb for instance is featured in the restaurant while a cheaper cut is served in the tavern. This is a trickier area, but a stew or less expensive cut is generally going to command a lesser price than a loin chop. Then again it may be the bargain as it often requires as much skill and greater effort to cook. "Better" can be too subjective for me to argue that the food in either part of GT is better, let's just say the more expensive food is in the restaurant. A reasonable standard might hold that less expensive is better, though I'm not sure all reasonable standards will support the tavern room as serving the better food.

I've told this story before, but when we were at Veyrat's place outside of Annecy, France, my wife took many notes of our long and extroardinary meal. As we were facing the view out a large window, we had our backs somewhat to the room and it was hard to hide the notetaking. We were starting our cheese course and one of us had already made a selection, when a waiter appeared and stopped the cheese service at the chef's request. We had eaten quite a lot already and wondered if we would be up for desserts, when several more full sized coursed appeared one after the other before we were allowed to continue to cheese. Indeed, we consumed so much food that I wondered if it was a treat. Fortunately each course was better than the last and all were more than superb. I wondered if the note taking had anything to do with the comped dishes and if so, did Veyrat think either one of us was a food writer, or did he just appreciate the depth of our interest. I should note that we ordered local wines and thus can hardly have been rewarded as big spenders although we took the gastronomic menu.

I see Lizziee's posted some good recs. We've eaten at Jean Luc Figueras' restaurant and found it most interesting. I think I posted some impressions elsewhere on this board. I suspect Lizziee may have enjoyed it more than I did, but it's certainly a restaurant worth knowing. I suspect it slipped my mind mostly because it's rather more haute cuisine than Catalan. That's not a value judgment. I was just responding to what I thought was a request for contrast to haute cuisine, but on rereading your post, I see you've not stressed that. As for the references to young chefs and new creative cooking in Barcelona, this is something that's missing from my education. I'd love to spend a week just following up on this--and another week recuperating with traditional Catalan food. Three days will indeed be a short time.

I wish I were in a position to criticize you for that. In fact, Esilda wishes I were in that position. I am the procratinator and rejiggerer of our family and see no reason not only why I shouldn't be allowed to replan my trip at the last minute, but why I shouldn't replan it in the abstract after it's over. Ca L'Isidre could easily be a lunch or dinner. I have not eaten at the higher end in Barcelona and over the years have had mixed success at the low and middle ends. Worst luck was when taking pot luck at the low end. Go prepared with destinations even at lower middle range restaurants and Barcelona can be a major culinary joy. Let me repeat my recommendation for Can Majo on the beach for a lunch. Reserve an outdoor table! Where are you staying? The old city has a great draw, but I prefer the area north of the Pl. de Catalunya. Good arguments could be made for either area as well as for others, perhaps. I'd like to recommend a restaurant that's simple and decidedly inexpensive, but rather upscale in terms of decor and interpretation of classic Catalan food. We discovered L'Olive on the night of a general strike in Spain. Most places were still closed and we set out from our hotel with a Michelin in hand and the hope that something would be open with an interesting menu at a reasonable price and, with luck, a listing in the Michelin. We had thought to just eat at our hotel, but they were honest in letting us know they were serving an abbreviated menu of steak or fish. Undoubtedly the fish was frozen and the kitchen was staffed by non cooks--probably management--attempting to serve those arriving or departing on cruise ships who are too clueless to find a restaurant even on a day when there isn't a strike. It was a pity as the regular menu was quite interesting looking and as NH Hotels have displayed such an interest in food by hiring Adria to consult on projects that I wanted to see what one of their chefs might turn out. I digress from what is already off topic from Sant Pau. We were quite ready to accept almost anything after passing one restaurant without a displayed menu. L'Olive had a really interesting Catalan menu, although we didn't expect either the contemporary urban decor or the quality of the food we we were served at that price. L'Olive, Balmes, 47, (corner of Consell de Cent) Good for lunch or dinner--far more sophisticated than Can Majo, but lacking the view of the beach and outdoor terrace. Inexpensive wines--Albret i Noya Chardonnay 20 euros. I've learned I'm not so much a fan of Spanish chardonnay, but Albret i Noya is a good Catalan producer in general. Once you leave the starred restaurants especially, wines have a low mark up in restaurants and prices of Spanish wines seem so much lower there than here. I have their menu in front of me and on the short list of recommended wines, (they also have a wine list) they offer Cavas at 12.63 and 20.05 euros and Tattinger Brut Réserve at 36.10 euros the bottle--2.55, 3.20 and 6.00 the "Copa," respectively. It was here that we had Amanida de peus de porc cruixent, which tasted like pork rinds. It looked as if they had taken the cooked pigs feet, boned it all, chopped it, combined it with onions then made a terrine out of it, froze it, sliced it thin and fried it like a big chip. It was served with thick home made potato chips and a salad. Their normal menu is in Catalan with Spanish subtitles. Perhaps not a starred place, but a find nonetheless if you're looking for local cuisine. For what it's worth, I see they're open from 1:00-4:00 for lunch and 8:30-midnight for dinner, if that gives you any clue as to dining times in Barcelona where I find dinner is later than in France, but earlier than in some parts of Spain perhaps. I think Wilfrid has some good suggestions for dining and certainly a better feel for bars in Barcelona than we have. A bar on the corner of the Rambla de Catalunya and the Gran Via (de las Corts Catalanes) served as a local for us for a few days. the tapas were above average, it had outdoor tables and was convenient. La Rambla de Catalunya should not be confused with La Rambla of which it is a norther extension and if you'll excuse my prejudice--classier. There is also a highly recommended wine bar in the Gothic quarter. I'll have to find the address. It's not so geared to be helpful to tourists. It's not unfriendly, but you have to be forceful to get attention at the bar. It's always easier to get someone's attention when you understand the language well enough to know just when the conversation with the current patron is ending. I am sorry you will not get to Girona, but there's only so much you can do in a visit. If you haven't been to Barcelona recently, three nights will be a treat, I think, but possibly frustratingly short. There are many restaurants in which I haven't eaten but of which I've heard. Scour the threads here and follow links.

No one should ever confuse the tavern and the main dining room at GT. They aim at different markets, or I should say they aim at providing different dining experiences, perhaps for the same audience. Food and service are far superior in the restaurant, although it's the tavern in which I've eaten many more meals. I'm inclined to agree that the dining room at GT is operating at a three star level, in spite of the fact that I think it does so with four star service and cooking. I understand the inherent contradiction in that statement and don't know how to explain it in a satisfactory manner. There are those who have said the food is dumbed down and I don't believe that's accurate. I do believe there's a definite policy of reducing the challenge to the diner and that's why I think of it as a three star place. I go back to one of the most reliable recommendations I have ever had on where to eat and what to order. I was told I "had" to get the chicken by someone who knew I would be unlikely to order a simple sounding chicken dish that night. The suggestion was not based on any belief that I might enjoy the chicken more than say lamb or pigeon, but on the basis that if I wanted to understand how fine a bird was still available commercially in America and how well it could be cooked, this was my opportunity. In "modern times," i.e. the last 20 years, I have only run across three examples of white meat breasted birds offering the same gastronomic quality--from Loiseau at la Côte d'Or in Saulieu and at Blue Hill in New York. Edit: Wilfrid and g.johnson have posted while I was composing my last messages. Both posts are quite apt and in line with what I was thinking, although I suppose Glynn's comments need to be understood in context of some long standing eGullet experience. In fact these dishes may be aimed at the tourists.

We should all be heretics if we're passioned in our interest about food. Of course even a bit of heretical passion will render a set of numbers less useful as an impartial standard. Should we expect such a standard from any list? Is a panel of jurists more likely to come up with an objective list or is it likely, as Frank Lloyd Wright always claimed, to throw out the worst and the best before ranking the accpetable medicority? The NY Times list is a work of fiction in that it's presented as standing NY Times ranking while it is really a collection of individual rankings by at least three different reviewers (Riechl, Grimes and Asimov) over a rather too long period of time. Would anyone care to guess when the earliest surviving star rating on list was awarded? I suspect there are no ratings that go back before Ruth Reichl, but I'm not even sure of that. The list appears to be less than 100% accurate even on that account.

How are you traveling and where are you coming from when you arrive in Girona? I am assumming you will be driving. Plan as much time as possible for sightseeing during the day in Girona, you may want to spend the next moring there before heading for Roses. We spent two nights in Girona and most of the day between those nights sightseeing and walking around the old part of the city. We're not well organized and got tired from our ambling walks before seeing everything. You will want to see the cathedral and the restored are of the old Jewish quarters, that were only fairly recently discovered in the old town. Much of that are has evidently been under rubble for centuries. Can Roca is out of town in a suburban area and the five or six euros for a cab was well worth it for us not to have to drive. Can Fabes and Hispania in one day may be a bit much if you intend to take the gastronomic menu at Can Fabes and do justice to the variety of dishes at Hispanya. I'd certainly focus on Can Fabes rather than Hispanya. Now are you saying you will have lunch at Hispania, then dinner at Can Fabes (or the other way around) and then proceed to a hotel near the airport that night? It's not that far, but it will be very late and I don't know what's near the airport which is south of Barcelona. You have to drive through Barcelona to get to the airport. I certainly might consider having lunch at Can Fabes and maybe staying in Barcelona for the night and having a lighter dinner there rather than at Hispania. We personally find that after a lunch at a three star restaurant, tapas is all we want in the evening. There's a train to the airport that you can get at the Placa de Cataluya or it's a short taxi ride from downtown Barcelona, but if you have a car, you may pay as much to park it as you would for the taxi.

Didn't you start a thread somewhere on adjectives overused in restaurant press releases, or am I confusing that with a thread on restaurant reviews? They are a similar genre at times, ain't they.

James, I'm sorry you took my post personally and that in doing so, you felt the need to make a public issue of it. I would have been happier to make my explanation via private message. There is no exact way to establish credibility. It's not a matter of numbers, it's a matter of perhaps the information we all read into posts over time. I could mention that I find it takes me longer to accept new members who don't post using their full name. Perhaps it's my hangup that I wonder what they have to hide, but it's something those who choose an alias have to consider. I wonder why you raise the red herring about free world and the internet being a place where anyone can say anything about anyone without proof? Why be so defensive? That you meant no harm to anyone is precisely why I felt the need to warn against how some people will view the posts. It's always good avice to enter a discussion site gently and without a chip on one's shoulder. When you read my post, you don't know if I'm reacting to a half dozen private messages suggesting we have trolls in this thread and that I'm merely trying to defuse a potential situation. One of the reasons I felt free to offer my advice here was that the restaurant in question had some solid backing, namely Fat Guy's link and his own word and I didn't want to see that good publicity ruined. In a thread about a more questionable restaurant I might expect my advice to look like an accusation. Here I thought it would appear as good advice to new members. Another truth is that there were a few unusual things in the first posts by new members that should cause a raised eyebrow among experienced users of food site on the net. I happen to have a good deal of sympathy for restaurateurs and on the rare chance there was some shilling going on, I wanted to warn the owners not to let over eager people ruin the good thing they already had here. Still it's not personal and it wasn't an accusation. Welcome to the site James. I hope you continue to share your opinions with us and that you find other people's opinions useful to you. You'll find a wide variety of opinion here.

I had lunch at El Bulli in May of 2000. Driving back to Roses after lunch we picked up a young couple walking back to town. He had just eaten there and she was staging there, for what I thought was the season, but could be mistaken. They had worked together in NY and were on their way as a couple to work in Vancouver that fall. It was exciting to sense their excitement and that was our clue to how important Adria would be on this side of the Atlantic. Adria had left the kitchen by the time we finished lunch, but we spoke with the manager who told us that they looked more to NY and the US than to France for thier ideas, or at least for the inspiration to be creative. Perhaps there was a bit of professional flattery there, but I suspect there was something behind what he said.

I think there's very little corelation between talent and the publicity the talent deserves. So I wouldn't think a lack of turned heads would be a discredit to the talent. And let's give eGullet a little credit for providing a forum for a chef to turn heads his way. I would give Grant Achatz great credit however for the intelligent and forthright way in which he's used eGullet to engage with our membership and I'd like to thank him for the time and effort he's taken to answer questions. I hope this engagement is beneficial to him in more ways than just the publicity. I know it's been a valuable session for eGullet and for its members. Thanks chefg.

The likelihood I would go to the restaurant decreases with every new first post by a new member touting the restaurant. Am I the only member who is suspicious when three new members appear in rapid succession to post glowingly about a single restaurant. in general first reports by any new member are of limited value. It's not until one can get some idea of a member's experiences and tastes that his reviews begin to have useful value to other members. In addition, it's all too often that an owner, chef, or relative of either, will post glowingly about their own place in a naive attempt to garner free publicity. I'm not saying I see anything more than coincidence here. I am advising new members to establish a bit of credibility before touting their favorite restaurant for whatever reason it's their favorite, lest they do more harm than good. Oddly enough, I'm usually quite taken with an interest in visiting a restaurant when someone connected with the restaurant introduces himself. Genuine enthusiasm and a pride in what one is doing is often very infectious.

La Regalade has quite a few fans among the membership and is frequently recommended here, but it is not a brasserie by any definition.

No one is more appreciative than I that a Disney destination is second only to a beachfront offering tea for the British. What I was saying is that they have to leave England to get it.

There's a one star restaurant in the town of Chenonceaux. For some reason the town name ends in "x" while the chateau's name is Chenonceau. I assume it's to trick foreigners. Chenonceau has stuff, but you're correct in noting that it doesn't have Mickey Mouse. I suppose the British need to go to France for that. There is a one star restaurant in Chenonceau. A filet of sandre on a bed of the pig's feet there was excellent. Not many kilometers away are a couple of excellent two star restaurants in superb country inns. My kid hated clowns. I can only wonder what she would have thought about a rat taller than she was. Obviously she didn't get anywhere near Disneyworld.

There's obviously a corelation between smoking and the ability to taste and probably one between the ability to taste and turning out good food, but things are never that simple. It's possible for one smoking chef to have a better sense of taste than another who doesn't smoke. It's also possible that a chef with impaired taste buds might have to try harder, or that his food might be tastier. How good that might be could depend on how strongly flavored you like your food. Beethoven continued to write music after he had gone deaf, so it's possible a chef doesn't have to actually taste what he cooks.

The only contrived course in our menu was the cheese course, but it's haute cuisine and in that sense, not a real contrast with either El Bulli or Can Fabes. I'd be quick to add my support for Ca l'Isidre in Barcelona. Traditional food, but finely done. Closer to funky--I recall having to shell shrimp that were cooked in olive oil, tomatoes and onions to eat a dish recommended by the waiter at Can Majo. It was food well worth getting into tomato sauce up to your elbows to eat. Excellent very fresh shrimp. Good rice dishes here. I'd recommend some simple seafood a la plancha perhaps and then a grand rice and seafood dish. This restaurant is on a corner of the Barcelonetta area and across the street from the beach. It's a great lunch spot. In fact one of the best one two culinary punches I've ever had is lunch here the day after a meal at El Bulli. If you're looking for someplace north of Barcelona and south of Roses (south of Sant Celoni perhaps as well) you probably want Restaurant Hispania in Arenys del Mar. It is, I suppose, the quintessential Catalan restaurant. We had lunch there and the restaurant was full of locals--couples and many businessmen, but more white collar workers enjoying a collegial lunch than what appeared to be business lunches. The menu is too large for a stranger to easily figure out what to order and the owner/hostess was quick to help us. No tourists here and it helps to speak Spanish, but I have a menu from last year and can get you a copy some way. Be very careful of the turnoff from the road here. Make too tight a turn at a point that's poorly marked and you will be on the wrong side of the road and the railroad tracks on a dirt road that leads to abandoned factories and a nude beach. To add to my frustration the beach was all male when we tried to find Hispanya. All of these places should be reserved in advance to guaranty a table.

The most French in feel to the reception and style. For better or worse, it is a Relais Gourmand. Actually, I found the waiter's uniforms a bit over designed and old fashioned and that's the worst of what is a very pleasant place. I never wrote about our meal there, but I have included mention in some post from time to time. Recently I recall mentioning the rice with gambas, a traditional dish, but prepared here with a sauce of memorable intensity. I have a souvenir copy of the Menú Degustació which we didn't have and which is in Catalan, so we'll not mention it again, but I trust it will prove useful in someway to me in the future. Fortuantely I have some notes. Rather than the menu degustació with four savory courses, we decided to choose four à la carte courses and have them split between us. Las tres tapetes servides d'appritiu - On a skewer, cube of John Dory liver, with olive coulis and chopped capers. - Serrano ham with savory ice cream, beets and greens. - Mini pizza - 3" pastry square with sauteed onions, fresh anchovy and a peeled cherry tomato stuffed with a parmesan emulsion. Espardenyes over crushed and sliced potatoes and macademia nuts. The nuts gave it a nice crunch without inflicting too much flavor. The plate was streaked with mint and red pepper emulsions. Sliced pulpo, fresh almonds (again, nuts as much for texture as taste) potatoes, string beans, with a creamy garlic and octopus soup added at the table by the waiter. Gambas in an intensely shrimp flavored soupy rice. . Mosaico de cerdo - pigs feet and meat all choped up and rolled, then sliced in a big chunk it was served with tempura zuchinni and its flower, on a base of vinegared chopped onions and red cherries to give some acidity and cut the gelatinousness of the pork. I had the five cheeses and accompanyments chosen for the month of June. It was also accompanied by a lovely drawing of the dish, but I'm sorry to say that I order these creative cheese courses from chefs, but almost always find them less satisfying that a good cheese tray or dessert. High marks for presentation, but I was jealous. Mrs. B. had the special dessert - a filo dough envelope deep fried and filled with vanilla cream, chocolate ganache, hazel nuts, orange jam, frais des bois, raspberries, and lingonberries. It was an extremely hot day and we noticed the waiter kept the bottled water in the ice bucket with our wine. Also, as if was lunch and we had to drive back some distance to our hotel, we were not drinking the wine very quickly so he kept putting the wine in and out of the ice bucket so it would not get too cold. The main dining room looks out and down, through a wall of glass, to a shaded garden swith four plane trees and lots of potted herbs and plants. Beyond the garden is the platform for the electric trains that go north from Barcelona. The trains are not a distraction. They are silent and lend a kind of time scale to the afternoon. The garden may possibly be a lovely spot for an aperatif later in the evening or earlier in the spring, but the air even by the sea was too oppressively hot at two in the afternoon in June. Beyond the train tracks is a narrow beach and the Mediterranean Sea. From the train platform one can see the restaurant and the kitchen at the garden level below the dining room. I don't know the train schedule, but this is a restaurant that can easily be reached by train. I trust you are also considereing Can Fabes in Sant Celoni, a true three star restaurant and Can Roca in Girona, which I liked as least as much as Sant Pau. Girona is a pleasant city that offers an interesting day's sightseeing. How long are you staying in the area and where do you plan on staying?

Well, aren't all the ones listed in Wilfrid's post currently 3 star restaurants according to the Times? I didn't think any in that list were less than 3 stars. Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant listed as in "when reviewed" and presumably listed somewhere as two, one or no stars. There's a wide variety of places and quality of foods on that list. There are probably a few I'd demote and probably some not on the list, I'd put on the list, but surely this is true of any rating system including the venerable Michelin star lists. I'm not even sure if the committee that reviews for Michelin makes their list any more solildly defendable. That restaurants reviewed by the NY Times maintain their rating, at least until reviewed again is ver peculiar when there's a change in reviewers.

But it's a three star gelateria. I believe Reichl was criticized for distributing her stars on a bell curve. Most restaurants got two stars.

Are there any that you feel should be promoted? Promoted from three to four, or ones that should be promoted to three from whatever they are listed as?

I don't think any of those ever really aspired to be a four star restaurant. Eleven Madison Park is a favorite of my mine and we dined there several times last year, eagerly introducing it to friends, so I mean no ill will when I say it aims at being a very good to excellent brasserie. I also think it is one of the finest restaurant spaces. It's georgeous in fact, and a space that contributes to the pleasure of dining. Its name shouldn't even come up when discussing four star restaurants even though it's hardly the furthest from one of all on that list.