Bux

Victor, thanks for placing Hal and for the info on Atrio. Your comments on Spain's break from isolationism, at least in the realm of culinary matters, is most interesting. Very successful arguments can be made for the ties nueva cocina has to traditional regional Spanish cooking as well as for the creativity and openess. In fact both points have argued here successfully and poorly at different times. I don't think they're opposing views anyway. I don't know Portugal at all and I've never traveled there, but I would certainly say that my impression from my interest and travels in Italy, France and Spain, that Spain was, at one point, the most isolated culturally of the three. They say the only constant is change. Spain has changed the most in this regard, or so it seems. (I think we've also covered this on eGullet.) I may have subjectivly negative reaction to the term "fusion" in cooking. I tend to associate it will an attempt to place disparate items and flavors on a plate in the name of creativity. That's not what I've seen in Spain. Maybe I've just been lucky, but when my "educated" palate has been assaulted, it's generally been by a new concept or experience in taste, rather than two old ones sparring on my tongue.

An interesting point. I wonder if Michelin doesn't pay any attention to Spanish restaurants because the prices are so low, by French standards. There are many inferences one could draw about restaurant prices in Spain, although as a tourist, I'm really not in a position to judge the relativity of pricing in France or Spain, let alone between the two. At the starred level however, the restaurants seem so much more accessible to the average person, or at least to the average tourist person. Wine too, seems a better value and the entry level to a reasonable bottle of wine is lower in Spain than in France. I suppose once could say the Spaniards just don't value that kind of food as much as the French do, but I wonder if those three star places in France survive on the French trade or the foreign tourism. I worry that as Spain builds the gastronomic tourism that has thrived in France, a rise in prices may start to exclude more of the local population. I think I've mentioned before that I sense a disconnect between the food of France's famous chefs and the general population. I'm clueless about how the Spaniards really feel about the most creative chefs, but at least I see more of them in the restaurants than I see foreigners.

Hard work, but someone has to do it. Where's Atrio and who is Fatéma Hal, by the way?

A first rate place with first rate food. Well, that's not to imply she's the best cook in Spain or that it's the top restaurant in Spain. I just mean to say it's a destination place and probably well worth the two Michelin stars it has. My recollection was that it was a bit expensive, but that was because the other two star restaurant we dined in that week, El Celler de Can Roca in Girona, is a real bargain. In fact my only regret of the meal is that I chose the designer cheese course. I always hate those things and as interesting intellectually as this one was, I ate it in complete envy of Mrs. B's luscious pastry. The name "Carme" was unfamiliar to me and I did nort know the chef was a she until we ran across a feature on her in Spanish magazine. I was taken by the way she described the energy and atmosphere that existed in contemporary Spanish kitchens. She expressed the view that contemporary Spanish chefs were very outgoing with their recipes and trade secrets and that as stagiaires came and went, nueva cocina was spreading rapidly through the country. She was not above cooking traditional food either. I had a rice dish that was a simple Catalan wet rice of great intensity and purity of flavor. It served well as counterpoint to the meal for me.

If you haven't been to Versailles, it's certainly worth the trip from Paris. I think you can get there by RER. We haven't been there in a long, long time and I know we had a car when we were there. We've either driven in or out of Paris many times in our life and have visited most places near Paris on one or more of those drives. Thus I have little first hand information about how to get to places by public transportation and tend to think of places to which I can drive. Many people people enjoy an organized overnight or day trip to the Loire. I'm not one of them, but the Loire is a wonderful place. I'd really prefer to spend two or three days, at least, and be on my own. Unfortunately, from what I remember, it's usually not very economical to rent a car for less than three days. I thought I recalled at lest one discussion here about day trips from Paris, but I couldn't find the thread. All I came up with was one with suggestions for a two day trip out of Paris Chartres comes to mind, but it's not worth the trip unless you're guaranteed clear skies and bright Sun. The odds are against that in the winter. Giverny is also accessible by train, but there's nothing in bloom, it's not even likely to be green and Monet's gardens are probably not even open. As I recall, you're spending a week in Paris. A week in Paris is not likely to bore most people, but if you've spent time before, I understand the interest in getting out of town.

I was in Brussels a couple of year's ago and enjoyed it quite a bit, but I agree with menton and lou. We've been to Paris often enough--wait, I take that back, can anyone go to Paris often enough?--Let's just say we've been there many times. We went to Antwerp and Brussels to visit a Friend and spend several days driving through the northeast of France in one of the few areas we've not visited in any depth in forty years. It's really a factor of how well you've seen Paris and the area around Paris. There are day trips in France I might rather make, but yes, you'll find better beer in Brussels.

"rules" like that are just plain silly and best ignored. the dining experience is just that: an experience. appreciate it on your terms, and progress at your own pace, in your own way. you're cheating yourself otherwise. It's hard for me to respond without saying, that in spite of the fact that I, and most of the people whose company I enjoy when eating in fine restaurants tend not to drink hard liquor until after the meal, I don't think it's a major faux pas to have a cocktail before a meal. There are also cocktails and cocktails. A bellini is not the high alcohol drink a martini is, for instance. A bellini is wine based and the sort of thing that's very common in fine French restaurants in France. I can think of many reasons not to order a cocktail and while not wanting to consume too much alcohol might be among them, that wouldn't be my primary reason. I think cocktails are a poor value in terms of enjoying my meal. A few cocktails may be more than the price of a bottle of wine that would make my meal better. If you want to enjoy food the way I do, you might try my advice, but it you want to enjoy food on your terms and those terms include relaxing at the bar, or even at the table, before ordering dinner, enjoy a cocktail and make it as potent as you want. If you feel it got in the way of enjoying dinner, you can alter your habits the next time. I've certainly adjusted my style many times along the way. We all evolve as do our habits and customs. When I know a restaurant will set out a nice assorment of hors d'oeuvres for me while I'm still reading the menu, I will probably have a drink before dinner. My choice then might be bubbly or a wine based cocktail. My take on rules is not so much to ignore them, but to know when to break them on your terms. Maybe that's no so different from what tommy suggests.

One of the problems for an American is that we're as apt to get some really bad information along the way that becomes difficult to unlearn. Another problem is that it's often hard to get a Japanese person to correct you if you say something wrong or if you display poor form. Even westernized Japanese friends are likely to offer the opinion they think I'd like to hear to make me comfortable. Some of the things I've heard are that sushi should be one bite, which of course brings the size into play where Americans love big pieces. I think a poll of Americans a la Zagat would rate sushi the size of a steak hanging over the edge of a plate as "best." The closest I ever got to getting a Japanese friend say anything critical is when one referred to Tomoe Sushi, a NYC sushi bar noted for very fresh fish and larger pieces, as serving Texas sushi, not Japanese sushi. I used to prefer beer with sushi, my wife finds it filling and I've been enjoying cold sake more and more (with and without sushi). I've been told that there's some sense that since sushi is a rice based food, it's considered redundant to drink sake with sushi and therefore sake is not a preferred drink with sushi. It's been a while since I've been in Japan and can't remember what I've seen there. My closest Japanese friend, who unfortunately I haven't seen in ages, answered "yes" to every question I asked over thirty years ago when before we make our first trip to Japan and is someone who wouldn't set a table in his house without at least a half dozen glasses and as many open bottles of alcoholic beverages at the same time.

Rather than respond to the incorrect spelling of "palate" in the thread in which it appeared, I though I would start a new thread. It seemed pretty neutral at the time. It's hard to control the direction of a thread and although I agree with many of the other sentiments expressed, they are not necessarily germane to my point. By the way, I'm a terrible speller and sometimes forget to use a spellchecker when I post, but in the case of homonyms, a spell checker is worthless. If "palate" is so often misspelled, it means that few of us know how to spell it. Thus many are likely to come to the site not knowing the correct spelling and learn the wrong thing here. I don't like to see eGullet setting an incorrect example. I have not been critical of those who use cute language. Whether or not those who spell "palate" incorrectly care about learning the correct spelling, those who do not know how to spell it are owed a correct example. That was my purpose in starting this thread.

I thought so too until I read this (scroll down to section 23)--now you know something she doesn't! Personally, I omit the apostrophe unless it is necessary to prevent confusion, as in ccs vs. cc's. There is one very good reason to be careful about spelling in particular--if I misspell the name of a restaurant or ingredient, the post won't show up when someone later searches the archive (unless they misspell it the same way). Aside from that, there is no real reason to be overly formal or to go back and edit an inconsequential typo or grammar mistake. Unless you are like me and have a reputation to uphold, that is. I think the evolution of netspeak is a natural phenomenon and find some of it useful/charming and some of it incredibly irritating. But I could say the same for the people I meet! I am usually too uptight to use netspeak or omit punctuation/capitalization, but I don't hold it against other people. It's a good use of the medium--form follows function. For the most part I couldn't agree more. This line from the site to which you refer is absolutely to the point. I'm a great proponent of language as a living thing that's constantly evolving. I'm also a great fan of using language for communication. Spelling is neither key not absolutely critical, but I believe it facilitates communication. I certainly had no expectation I'd see the reaction I've seen in this thread where a member threatens to quit if someone decides the word "sammiches" can't be used. I certainly didn't suggest enforcement of correct spelling and the number of users who raised objections to other things were not calling for anything but respect and mutual understanding. We should certainly be able to listen to others and endeavor to communicate our thoughts without feeling threatened or threatening others. I've learned a lot on eGullet and if I don't let others correct me when I'm wrong, I'm going to stop learning here. One of the things I've learned is that some people just want to patted on the back and told they're correct. It ain't gonna happen, but each of us is free to post as he, or she, wants. I've only offered the opportunity for those who came to a site where "palate" is misspelled more often than it is spelled correctly, to learn the correct spelling if they cared to do so. Members are always free to communicate or choose not to communicate as they wish in posts. There's nothing inherently threatening in seeing the correct spelling posted.

My pet peeve is seeing words quoted taken out of context.

I gather you've never ironed a cheese sandwich on a teflon cookie tin. It's best done with a teflon coated iron as well, and with the steam turned off.

You're choice. As I noted, "bistro" seems to be in the mind of the beholder. db Bistro Moderne, Daniel Boulud's third restaurant in NY after Daniel and Cafe Boulud, is very chic in terms of it's decor and the food is very up to date and no simpler than in his other restaurants. He does, however allow himself the opportunity to be less serious and more playful by offering a couple of hamburgers. There's the rather luxurious db burger, stuffed with braised short ribs and foie gras and then there's the truffle burger. If you have to ask the price of the latter, it's not for you. Than again it's closer to a bistro than Cafe Boulud is to a cafe. Who cares unless the question "what's in a name" is more important than "what's cooking."

Damn, that was going to be my answer. Patricia Wells tries to answer this question in both the Food Lover's Guide to France" and The Food lover's Guide to Paris. She does a better job in the latter, maybe because I have a later edition and she's rethought the issue, or maybe just because she only tries to define in within the smaller context of a single city. In the third edition of the Paris guide printed ten years ago, she writes that the definition of bistro has been expanded to include a new crop of updated bistros where one finds waiters in designer uniforms and Japanese inspired raw fish dishes. If there's a fourth edition, I wonder if she'll have the energy to bother trying to define "bistro." By the way, the words "bistro" and "bistrot" are both seen in France, but one rarely sees the final "t" in the states. One NY French chef told me he thought the French are dropping the "t" in an effort to be more consciously modern and even to show American influence. What I think most people in the states, particularly outside of NY where Parisian trends and ways are quickly imported, expect is an moderately priced place with old fashioned food--possibly French food that might actually be considered "ethnic." I think that's reflected in many of the posts here. Brasseries, by the way, were frequently opened by breweries to sell their beer. "Brasserie" means brewery. The food served was generally that which best went with beer. Most of the brasseries specialized in Alsatian food to go with the Alsatian beer they served. Today, wine outsells beer in every brasserie I've seen. Brasseries are often large bustling places, as you might expect from a beer hall. Brasseries often have cafes in the front, on the street and often serve food all day as opposed to traditional bistros which were mom and pop places and which served only at meal times. Brasserie Georges, a nice art deco hall in Lyon, has a nice collection of memorabilia from the brewery that original owned the place--old bottles, advertising, calendars, etc.

I have the impression that it's all about freshness in the US, but in another way. In NYC at least, foodies who may not be dedicated sushi connoisseurs tend to rate sushi restaurants soley on freshness, because an appreciation of the finese invovled is still beyond them. I'm not saying a restaurant with less fresh fish could ever be better than one with fresher fish, but if two restaurants were serving slices from the exact same piece of fish, many New York sushi lovers would rate the one with bigger pieces as the better one.

I think you'e headed for trouble.

Palatte? That's a new one for me. Yeah, and you know I checked the definition lines a half a dozen times on this one. What's really funny is that I think it was the appearance of "palatte" somewhere in a thread that pushed me to post this--or was it "pallete."

What's the perfect bread with Velveeta? (he asks while ducking. At least I hope I have reason to duck and that you're prepared to throw a black skillet at me.) I don't see the can of wild mushroom bisque, but there's a cream of mushroom that looks like a work of art. Will that do? I can bring up the memory of the taste of grilled American cheese on white from my childhood and enjoy the memory, but I can't create the desire to actually taste one now. For a while my favorite was gruyere and ham with mustard on buttered New York rye bread and done in a skillet, although they can be prepared as Jinmyo's sandwich above and they are less greasy/buttery. More recently I've been enjoying fresh mozzarella with either sauteed mushrooms or prociutto on rather squishy little rolls from a local Italian bakery. These are best brushed with olive oil and pressed between two ridged skillets over a burner with the ridges facing inside. Maybe panini don't count. Here in NYC, I can get a very flat sort of focaccia that the Sullivan Street Bakery sells a pizza bianca. They are wonderful topped with sauteed onions and paper thin slices of pecorino romano, but I think it's really cheating to suggest they're grilled cheese sandwiches.

Its, it's, your, you're, their, they're, and there are abused all over the Internet in newsgroups and message boards. Palate gets particular abuse on this site. Palate = the roof of one's mouth, or taste He has a well developed palate for fine wine. Pallet = a simple mattress, or a platform for stacking goods in a warehouse, or for moving goods. He stacked the cartons on a pallet and used a fork lift to load them onto the truck. Palette = the board or tray an artist uses to mix colors, also the range of colors on the palette. The web safe palette has 216 non-dithering colors.

All alcohol served in bars and restaurants including beer and wine in glasses, bottles or whatever, in NYC is taxed at 8.5% as if it was food.

Yes, but this is really an anomaly, possibly done for marketing purposes as has been previously discussed. This doesn't change that fact that they have substantially lowered the average scores of a large number of restaurants that they have been following over a long period of time. Agreed and for that reason I didn't quote your later post about lowered scores. I was following up on Jonathan's comment about Michelin's multiple visits and I thought your reply about objectivity was worth including in my response. GM, if a single visit suffices at the top, is unlikely to make enough visits to be truly objective in any range. Is Veyrat better than Passard or Gagnaire on the average, or just on the specific day GM visited each. The 20 for Veyrat brought them a bit of publicity, but in my opinion, it pointed up their great weakness by publicly announcing the 20 was reward for a single meal.

As I participate in eGullet and other message boards, I'm coming to the conclusion that these sites are primarily about self-expression and interpersonal communication within a community of people with like interests, rather than deriving utility from the actual information and opinions presented, although there is some of that as well. I suppose "utility," like beauty, is where you find it, or in the eyes of the beholder. I find a lot of the communicatin here useful, but perhaps not in the direct utility sense you mean. Nevertheless, I also find that interpersonal communication helps me to interpret reviews as well. The news that's posted here is also informative and we often scoop my other sources.

From my perspective, the reason that I lend credence to Michelin, and hopefully Gault Millau does something similar, is that they follow a defined process that creates some level of objectivity and hence comparability. GM states that they awarded Veyrat 20 points on the basis of one meal.

I would agree that many posts have gone from support of Adam's original post, to an attack of CT and that some of these posts seem to claim they are refuting things that have not been said.

I didn't think that was an issue here, other than that the restaurant's fame will bring more customers, but that's been true as long as there have been restaurants. Has anyone suggested one should pretend to be an experienced diner. I haven't seen a post to that effect. What I've read are the suggestions that an experienced diner will get more out of the meal by being able to better appreciate it. That's an entirely different matter and one that values education and experience in general. I've also read comments suggesting one leave one's pretenses at home and be honest in your reaction to, and communication with, the staff. Here's an example: Advice from those familiar with CT is that one should not pretend anything. In my opinion, the greatest enjoyment of any fine restaurant will come to those who approach the food and service honestly without pretense or prejudice. If a restaurant requires pretense from a diner, it's not a great restaurant.