slkinsey

I agree that the cost of having a kitchen on that level is probably pretty high, so they probably have to charge 14 to 16 bucks a plate no matter what is on the plate. What I'm wondering is what it would do to the bottom line to make the portions of some of these things twice as big. My guess is that the majority of the cost isn't in the ingredients. And, for me, I find the price/value is a barrier to ordering. If two $14 plates isn't going to fill me up, it's not like I'm going to order three $14 plates. Instead, I'm likely to order zero plates. Most of the time, when I've had two $14 dollar plates, I've still needed to eat dinner afterwards. So, at that size, they really are snacks. $14 is pretty steep for snacks. I guess I'm suggesting that some of these places might actually move more food and ultimately make more money from the kitchen if the plates were larger. Maybe I'm completely wrong about that. I don't know the economics. But, for the sake of comparison, you can get a generous plate of bucatini all'amatriciana at Lupa -- enough to call "dinner" -- for 16 dollars.

Not always, though. Here is the back bar at Eagan's in Milwaukee. One of the most impressive collections you are likely to see. Probably the only bar in Milwaukee with Luxardo maraschino. And yet... crap cocktails.

Various treatments of potatoes are the most common uses of rendered duck fat, and that's always a good choice. I have also found it to be very felicitous in combination with beef. I have my doubts as to whether "marinating in duck fat" has any particular benefit, especially if the beef is grilled. On the other hand, I have found that using duck fat when preparing beef in a hot pan (either entirely pan-fried or finished in the oven) makes a big difference. Ironically, the steak seems to come out "beefier" this way, rather than with much identifiable duck flavor. It's also hard to put a foot wrong by using a little duck fat when browing poultry. I like to use a bit of duck fat in the pan when I do pan-fried and oven-roasted spatchcocked chicken or squab.

Julia Moskin has an article in today's NY Times entitled "Drop the Swizzle Stick, Grab a Fork" wherein she discusses the trend for cocktail bars to serve "thoughtful, tasty food beyind the usual burgers, bowls of pretzels and cheese plates." Several top cocktail spots in NYC are mentioned. It has long been possible to get "advanced bar food" while sitting at the bar of a restaurant or at a swanky hotel bar such as Bemmelmans Bar at the Carlyle, but the movement in this direction for stand-along cocktail bars really began in earnest with the opening of Pegu Club in 2005. And Pegu Club's current menu garners some attention from Moskin as "the most elaborate and successful in the city." It's no surprise by now that the kitchen is now under the direction of Philip Kirschen-Clark formerly of wd-50 and more recently of Jimmy's No. 43. They're offering food along the lines of snail-stuffed pancakes with fennel seeds, nigella seeds, Pernod and spicy mayonnaise. Says the chef, "I wanted really bold flavors because cocktails are so explosive." Moskin calls his duck confit, slow-cooked in a paste of ginger, garlic, kaffir lime leaves and cilantro, shredded over polenta and served with pickled cherries, radish and shiso "one of the great flavor compositions of the year." I haven't tried these two dishes, but I've had the chance to sample a number of dishes-in-process at Pegu, and have been quite favorably impressed. It's great to see the bar that started the trend taking it up to the next level. As one could imagine, PDT gets a nice mention as well for taking more traditional, "non-haute" bar food (namely, deep fried hot dogs) and bringing it to a level of "high and low" sophistication with a touch of the modern, unexpected and recontextualized with offerings like their John John Deragon with cream cheese, scallions and everything bagel seasonings, and of course the Wylie Dog with its iconic deep fried mayonnaise. I know that Clover Club and Death & Company are offering interesting and innovative food. Perhaps people would like to post about what they've liked there, and I'm sure we'd also like to hear about the "advanced bar food" offerings at other cocktail bars across the country. If I had one "complaint" about some of the "advanced bar food" on offer, it's that I find much of it portioned too small. Economically, I can understand that they have to charge, say, 15 dollars a plate just to pay for the kitchen to run. I don't mind paying that price. But if I am going to spend 30 bucks on two plates of food, it should be enough food that I don't need dinner afterwards. For me, it's definitely a barrier to ordering bar food if I'm going to spend "dinner money" but still need a meal later. For example, Brandy Library's merguez sausage "lambs in a blanket" wrapped in puff pastry with harissa and dijon mustard is $14 for 8 smallish pieces. Others may know better than I whether food cost is a significant concern in these contexts, or whether they could put more food on the plate.

How do they work? I know that this is probably a stupid question but do they control the temp or just monitor it? http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=pr...&products_id=44

For that money, you could pick up a slow cooker on eBay and rig it with an Auber PID.

I think there's nothing wrong with it, as far as it goes. On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing about it that makes it worth 250% more than Luksusowa -- especially in a cocktail. And don't even get me started on (570% more than Luksusowa) Stolichnaya Elit. In that sense, they and their ilk are all "swill."

There's a thread from 2005 about cost of spirits and suitability for cocktails, wherein I offered the following that may have some relevance to this discussion:

I see what you're saying, Erik. It's always a bit disheartening to see a bar menu where all the cocktails feature the most expensive products available, and yet they are all clearly unsophisticated, poor quality sugar bombs. There's nothing quite like seeing an ingredient listing that calls for both Hendrick's gin and Sprite. The irony is that the best cocktail bars do not use the highest-priced spirits in their cocktails as a matter of course. You will never see a top cocktail bar menu that features Hendrick's in every gin drink. They're not using the lowest-priced ones either, of course. You'll see almost all of the drinks being made with Tanqueray and Plymouth rather than Old Raj or Gilbey's; Herradura Silver rather than Patron Platinum or Cuervo Silver; Rittenhouse BIB and Old Overholt rather than Michter's 10 year or Jim Beam. And in the case where a cocktail is made with Old Raj or Michter's 10 or George T. Stagg, there's a damn good reason why they're using the more expensive spirit: because it provides something that can't be had any other way in that particular drink. And there are some drinks that really demand a certain spirit or certain quality of spirit. PDT's Staggerac is an obvious example, but even something not so spirit-centric can sometimes need a more expensive spirit. A good example of that is the Juniperotivo, which really just isn't quite right without Junipero gin.

I also prefer the Zyliss. I don't think any of the pump types can approach the maximum RPMs you get on the pullcord types.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the bartender should ultimately give the customer what he asks for, if that's what they're selling. But I don't think it's incumbent upon the bar, if it aspires to be a cocktailian bar, to stock 23 different kinds of "superpremium" and flavored vodkas, for example. In these instances, I think it's perfectly fine to say: "We don't have Gray Goose. We have Smirnoff and Ketel One, if that would be okay. Or perhaps you would like something from our menu." Similarly, they don't have to stock Crown Royal if they think it's a crap spirit. So long as they're offering it for a similar price point, they can offer Forty Creek or Alberta Premium to people who want Crown Royal.

I think it depends on your perspective. As a cocktailian bartender interested in spreading the gospel and growing the craft I think there is some "responsibility" to make an attempt to influence customers towards in the right direction. I can't count the number of times I've seen Toby Maloney offer "citrus and juniper flavored vodka" (aka Plymouth gin) to customers who asked if there were any flavored vodkas in the house -- always to good effect. Otherwise, you know... just open a shot and beer place, staff it with surgically enhanced twentysomethings in halter tops and watch the money roll in. Just make sure no one gets overserved. I think there are a number of things going on here. First, St. Germain is a quality spirit. Second, as Phil points out, there just aren't that many high quality modifiers around, and bartenders are enthusiastic about something new. Third, St. Germain isn't nearly as emphatic as many of the common high quality herbal modifiers such as Chartreuse, Drambuie, Benedictine, etc. (which are used a quite a lot as well!), making it an easier mixer for bartenders and an easier taster for drinkers. Fourth, we can't ignore the fact that St. Germain has done a significant promotional campaign since its introduction into the United States, with noted cocktailian bartenders signed up and lots of liquor store displays, etc.

Mmmmm. Anisakis.

Oh! When you said "new" and "report on its state" I got the impression you were worried it would be reformulated or different somehow.

It's not dry. But not too sweet either. The R&W is pretty dry. Think of it as a Silver Corpse Reviver #2 subbing the R&W CdV for the Lillet Blanc. The CdV is only marginally sweeter than Lillet Blanc.

A while back in the thread on sloe gin we had a minor diversion on Mirto. Mirto is a traditional infusion from the island of Sardegna, which is a large but remote and sparsely populated island off the Mediterranean coast of Italy. Sardegna is to Italy as Corsica is to France -- technically part of the country, but not really culturally a part of the country, and with special autonomy under the state constitution. Mirto is the Italian word for "myrtle," and here are two different kinds of Mirto di Sardegna: Mirto Rosso, which is made from the berries (and perhaps some of the leaves) of the myrtle tree, and Mirto Bianco, which is made only from the leaves of the myrtle tree. Both are made by infusing the myrtle berries and/or leaves in alcohol. The rosso type is sweet. Not sure about the bianco type, as I have not had a chance to sample it. Mirto Rosso is a very interesting spirit. Definitely some berry flavors and sweetness there. But also a certain resinous quality that brings to mind fresh, sticky rosemary. As chance would have it, I recently sampled a very nice cocktail including a hint of fresh rosemary prepared by one Mister Damon Dyer at Flatiron Lounge, so I had the idea that a little resin could be interesting. So far I've been riffing on sloe gin drinks. The mirto versions are nothing like the sloe gin drinks, but many of the same principles apply. The best so far have been a Mirto Sour with 1 1/2 gin, 3/4 lemon, 3/4 simple, egg white and a 1/2 ounce mirto float, and a "Tango Sardo" with equal parts Mirto Rosso and Laird's bonded. Argiolas has good distribution in NYC of their Tremontis Mirto, which is the one I've been using (a rosso). And Zedda Piras makes both a Mirto Rosso and a Mirto Bianco. Zedda Piras is part of Gruppo Campari, but I've never seen their products in the States. If you have a chance, pick up a bottle and try it out. It's an interesting spirit that provides opportunities to create cocktails with a new and largely unfamiliar flavor.

What do you mean by "new" Rittenhouse BIB? As far as I know, they haven't changed anything.

Given the cloudiness, I wonder if this might be one where following the instruction to shake would be better.

The more I think about this, the more I suspect I am correct about time-at-temperature. Think about cooking, say, some broccoli pieces in 95C water. After you put the broccoli in the water, how long can it possibly take before the core temperature of the broccoli is approximately 95C? Certainly no more than a minute. And yet, if you pull the broccoli out of the water after 1 minute, it will still be fairly crisp. Leave the broccoli in the water for 5 minutes, and it will be soft. What's the difference? Time-at-temperature. For cooling in ice water versus cooling in air, it may be that the difference in time-at-temperature is not significant enough to make a difference. Which would suggest that cooling blanched vegetables in ice water is a waste of time. As Jack suggests, it should be a fairly simple experiment. Additionally, as Al suggests, there may be no benefit gained in chilling vegetables that have been cooked SV at lower temperatures.

Jack, I don't think you read my post carefully enough. My example of beef specifically mentioned tenderloin because it is a tender meat. There should be minimal difference, if any, between a beef tenderloin cooked to 55C for 3 seconds or 30 minutes. Both will be medium-rare, and both will have the same tenderness. A brisket cooked to 55C for 30 minutes versus 30 hours... yes, there will be a difference in texture. However, both will still be at the same level of "doneness" (medium rare). Vegetables are different. Texture and "doneness" are usually the same thing. I am hypothesizing that a vegetable blanched in 95C water for a fixed period of time and left on a platter will have a softer texture than one which is chilled in an ice bath. I may be incorrect about this, however. Nathan's charts indicate that the vegetable will reach the same peak core temperature regardless of whether the vegetable is chilled in an ice bath or not. So, if it is the case that the unchilled vegetable is softer than the chilled vegetable, then it cannot be due to a difference in core temperature. The only thing that differentiates the two vegetables, then, would be time-at-temperature, with the unchilled vegetable spending significantly more time in the higher temperature range.

This is getting somewhat out of the topic of sous vide, but I would imagine it may have to do with reactions and effects that are both time and temperature dependent. In a piece of beef tenderloin, for example, 30 minutes at the temperature of medium rare is not much different from 3 seconds at the temperature of medium rare. The meat will have the "doneness" of medium rare. In some vegetables, however, there may be some advantage to taking it up to a certain temperature range and then back out as soon as possible. A stalk of asparagus that is taken out of simmering water and plunged into an ice bath will spend not very much time at high temperature. A stalk of asparagus that is taken out of simmering water at the same time and simply placed on a platter will spend considerably more time at high temperature. This may mean that the non-chilled stalk of asparagus will have more cell wall degradation, etc. and a consequently softer texture. This is just a guess.

Absolutely! It's not a coincidence, I think, that many of the centers of cocktail culture in the US right now are cities with a relatively dense urban core and convenient access to decent modes of public transportation. This can take the form of subway, trolley, bus or even a reasonable number of taxicabs (which is what I usually take in New Orleans after an evening of boozing).

Actually, I think there would be a significant difference between a Rittenhouse BIB and a Rittenhouse 23 Sazerac. Whether one would be better than the other is a matter of taste and opinion. But the Sazerac is a cocktail that is comprised almost entirely of the base spirit, so it's not a good example. Not so something like the Last Word. I get what you're saying. . . just a bad example drink. Part of the point I think Phil is making is not only the fact that the special properties of VEP are lost in a cocktail like the last word (it's hard to see how any "special refinement" could possibly hold up alongside an equal measure of Luxardo maraschino), but that a VEP Last Word might even be not as good as a regular Green Chartreuse Last Word. I would think that a good cocktailian bartender in the appropriate setting might advise a customer asking for a VEP Last Word that the drink really works better with regular Green Chartreuse. The other thing I think Phil decries (and so do I) is the gimmickry and appeal to price snobbery implicit in the offer of a drink using the most expensive ingredient available, when that spirit doesn't contribute at least a reasonably commensurate improvement or resonably noticable difference in the drink. We're not talking about offering a Margarita made with $1.00/ounce Herradura Silver instead of $0.64/ounce Sauza. We're talking about a Last Word with $3.48 ounce VEP instead of $1.70 regular Green Chartreuse. Just doing some quick math, the VEP alone would raise the cost of the drink something like 50%. I would argue that an upgrade from Sauza to Herradura in a Margarita makes a bigger difference than an upgrade from regular Green to VEP does in a Last Word. I've had a few VEP Last Words for fun, and while I might be able to tell the difference in a side-by-side comparison, it was by no means a "special experience" one would hope for in a $18 cocktail. Sometimes, however, the upgrade to a superpermium spirit does make a difference and is worth it. PDT's "Staggerac" is a good example. The use of George T. Stagg as the base spirit in a Sazerac abaolutely makes a unique and memorable experience.

I wonder what would be a super-expensive Last Word? Something like: Kensington Reserve XO London Dry Gin Green Chartreuse VEP Luxardo Perla Dry Riserva Speciale Buddha's Hand juice or Kalamansi juice (fresh to-order, of course) Not saying it would be good!!!

The Latest Word is brilliant! I have to say that I agree a bit about using VEP in drinks like this. The ones I've had didn't taste special.