slkinsey
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Posts posted by slkinsey
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The negativity surrounding Aviary's drinks (in particular the Old Fashioned) in this thread hasn't been shown toward barrel-aged and bottle-aged cocktails. What's the difference?!? I may be totally wrong (and if so please correct me), but I'd assume that the only part of the drink that will be prepared in advance is the egg ice-ball*. The drink will then be prepared, funneled into the egg ice-ball, and then served.
As I understand it, the booze is decanted into the "ice egg" and then the hole is somehow sealed, meaning that the booze-filled ice egg has to stay in the freezer for some time after it is filled.
I don't have much of a problem with the fact that the customer doesn't get the same kind of choice in this old fashioned as he would in a regular cocktail bar. That's not Alinea's thing, after all. Presumably they're also not asking how you like your steak. What I don't care for is the overall self-congratulatory presentation of old and largely tired gimmicks in these videos as though they're original and particularly brilliant ideas (people were doing cocktails with melting flavors in them more than 5 years ago). Whimsy for the sake of whimsy is an annoying feature of certain "molecular" types. Of all the ideas featured in the videos, the ice egg old fashioned at least seems like it could be a good drink. It's a minor thing, really, just that I've found myself engaging in a fair bit of eye-rolling when watching these videos.
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I will allow as how my overall impression of these Aviary cocktails is not formed exclusively by their Old Fashioned, but also by stuff like their
. It's formed from my subjective impression of these videos as presenting a self-satisfied "look at this cool modern stuff we're doing" attitude combined with the fact that I'm in a position to know that things like encapsulation "caviar" in cocktails was a tired concept two years ago and, frankly, was always kind of bullcrap gimmickry. I mean, when big companies like Cointreau are selling "Cointreau Pearl" kits, encapsulations in cocktails have jumped the shark. And it's not like anyone is putting a gun to their heads and making them do these videos. The whole put-on-for-video smug discussions about how awesome this already-passé technique is, and how the only reason "those other bars" aren't doing it is because it's just too gosh darn labor intensive . . . it's just a little too self-contragulatory for cocktails that don't exactly make me say "wow." I have a hard time thinking I'd be blown away, or thinking that there's anything particularly innovative or forward-looking about a cocktail comprised of gin, Yellow Chartreuse, citric acid and tonic water with a bunch of cucumber juice encapsulations floating around in it. I could go on, because most of the videos have some element like this. Another good example is where they present the concept of a clear cocktail made using a rotary evaporator... something Dave Arnold and others were doing several years ago.These guys are talented, of course, and I'm sure they will come up with things that are good. I'm being hard on them not because there's anything all that terrible about what they're doing, but rather because it's a bit emblematic of what I don't like about a certain kind of molecular gastronomy take on cocktails. Gus like Dave Arnold manage to use new technologies in drinks in a much better way, in my opinion. But, as I said earlier, what I have seen thus far from the Aviary guys has appeared more whimsical trickery than it has appeared like legitimate mixology to merit that much back-patting. In fact, I'd say that the "old fashioned in an ice egg" is the only one of their videos so far that has struck me as all that interesting. It's a presentation trick, of course, perhaps as interesting as some of the lesser Japanese cocktail ice carving presentation tricks. But at least it's interesting, which is more than I can say for the other stuff. The "painkiller pudding" looks revolting, and represents one of the worst kinds of "transformation for the sake of transformation" that is a constant temptation in the molecular gastronomy game -- this time they transformed it into something that isn't a cocktail.
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You know... I hate to be a hater, but most of the Aviary cocktail videos come off to me as far too self-satisfied about what fundamentally strikes me as somewhere between whimsy for the sake of whimsy and bullcrap mixology. I mean, serving booze and bitters inside of an "ice egg" is a neat trick, but that's what it is: a trick.
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Does anyone have an approximate date for when the Last Word started to be served at Zig Zag? I'm thinking it's not long before it was posted to this thread, but would welcome any additional information.
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As Steven says, in many/most of the professional situations, it comes down to what the supplier carries and what the prevailing trends are. That said, when we look at the base units that most people buy and consider what the units are best known for, it suggests that they have different strengths depending on what you want to do.
From what I can tell, the BlendTec has some clear advantages when it comes to making thick, smoothie-type preparations. The ability to toss a bunch of frozen stuff in there, press a pre-programmed button and walk away is a big advantage. Yes, I'm sure that VitaMix makes some machines that might have some similar functionality, but they're certainly not known for it the way BlendTec is.
On the other side of the debate, I think the VitaPrep has some clear advantages over the BlendTec when it comes to certain applications that a restaurant might typically want to do. For example, I have had occasion to turn blanched/shocked/squeezed arugula into a vibrantly green, perfectly smooth puree so dense you could call it a paste. This was a process where the VitaPrep's plunger and the base's variable speed dial made a huge difference in getting the thick herb into the blades and controlling the temperature. I don't see how something like this could possibly be done in a BlendTec without cooking the green out through friction or adding more liquid. On the other hand, if you make a million smoothies and aggressively rock the container around on the base while plunging like Steven did with his VitaMix, then having the plunger design is clearly a liability.
This, to me, all points towards figuring out what your priorities might be for use. Me? I don't really care about smoothies and I like to do a lot of things that really depend on the plunger, so I have a VitaPrep. On the other hand, if I were going to open a tiki bar, I'd make sure the blenders were BlendTec.
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I think there are far more than 25 cocktail bars worth noting.
Just off the top of my head, thinking of NYC places where people I know work, there's at least fifteen at a very high level: Angel's Share, Brandy Library, Clover Club, Death & Company, Dram, Dutch Kills, Employees Only, Flatiron Lounge, Little Branch, Mayahuel, Milk & Honey, Painkiller Tiki, PDT, Pegu Club. To these one might conceivably add another six: Apothéke, B Flat, Hotel Delmano, Louis 649, Raines Law Room, Rye House. And then we know Julie Reiner's forthcoming Lani Kai is going to be worthy of note, as will be the places Eben Freeman's working on. Meanwhile there are I'm sure there are some I've inadvertently omitted, and a number of other places to come.
Now, granted, NYC is a kind of cocktail mecca at the moment. But I'd be willing to bet there are at least 100 cocktail bars worth talking about in the US right now, and that's a pretty conservative estimate. Look at how fast these things can go: As recently as five or so years ago it was an acknowledged joke that Tales of the Cocktail was convened in a city where a decent cocktail could not be had. Now there is at least a handful of great places down there. And plenty of cities have gone from virtually nothing to having a great cocktail scene in a similar timeframe.
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Exactly. Every bar on the list is excellent, and some of them are famously elite cocktail bars. There are also some excellent as well as some famously elite cocktail bars that aren't on the list.
One can quibble about the rankings and who was/wasn't included. My experience is that these things are almost always written and/or compiled by people who don't necessarily share the priorities of the cocktailians who might spend their time debating the merits of such a list. Just to make an easy example, there are bars on the list that might be judged by most cocktailians as having merely "very good" cocktails, but which are ranked highly by the GQ writers, presumably due to some perceived "coolness factor" that's important to them and their readers. Beyond those sorts of things, there can be all kinds of other reasons why an article might include or highly rank certain establishments and not others. I know to a fact that NYC publications at various times have profiled certain establishments in "best of" or "notable" roundups fundamentally because they were tired of writing about the same interconnected group of people all the time. And, of course, when examining our own reactions, it's always worthwhile to keep the "home court" effect in mind. This was discussed by Alan Richman in his GQ pizza article, where he points out that "a beloved pizzeria is almost always about memories." This all goes a long way towards explaining why we are sometimes just as mystified at those guys from Omaha who think they have a top tier cocktail bar as they are mystified that we don't agree.
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Is that the one that looks like a Cylon head?
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Even more novice friendly than that is the Bitter Elder; 1.5 gin, 3/4 St Germaine, 1/2 Campari, 1/2 lemon. Wish I had a name to credit this one to, I've made hundreds in the past couple of years.
Interesting. As far as I can tell this "Bitter Elder" (there is a different cocktail with the same name from the UK) originated in an anonymous response signed as "Ameture Hour" to this post on the Oh Gosh! cocktail blog. The drink seems to have become fairly popular, so it's a shame the creator isn't known. I wonder if the blog owner might be able to take a look at the IP address information for the post and figure out who it was.
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In my experience: forever.
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My favorite white rhum agricole is La Favorite, beating out Neisson by just a little.
For an aged one, I like Neisson Élevé Sous Bois better than the rhums agricoles with more age.
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New to this SV cooking concept. I am trying to build myself a setup.
I apologize for asking stupid questions:
Is it correct to call it ” Vacuum packed” ?
Water boils in room temperature under vacuum. Shouldn’t it be called “airless” instead?
I don’t remember this, but I think there will be 14 lbs/ sq. in. of pressure on the food if it is under vacuum. Wouldn’t that squeeze all the juice out of food?
This is discussed somewhat extensively upthread, but the long and short of it is this:
The contents of a flexible pouch are under normal atmospheric pressure (~14.7 PSI), or perhaps a bit higher when under the water due to the added weight of the water.
If ~14.7 PSI would squeeze the juices our of food when cooked, then this would be a big problem for all cooking. So, no.
The only way to create a lower-than-normal pressure condition is to have a rigid container and evacuate gas from the container.
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Mess is another count against jiggers and for marked measuring cups in the home bar.
Again, the fact that small overpours will spill out of a jigger, meaning that you don't need to look very closely to measure accurately, is a big advantage in a bar, where (1) speed is important; (2) spillage isn't such a big deal; and (3) someone else is cleaning up. In a home bar, however, the calculus is exactly the opposite.
The fact is that home and professional settings lend themselves to different equipment. There is a certain fetishization of professional equipment, but this doesn't mean that the professional equipment is better in a home setting. Indeed, often times, the home cook or bartender has the ability to use better equipment than the professional. Most restaurants use crappy raw aluminum cookware, for example. Now, a professional cook might still prefer to use crappy raw aluminum cookware in his home kitchen because that is what he is used to using. And I suppose that there might be any number of professional cook wannabes/groupies/friends who would buy a kitchen full of crappy raw aluminum cookware because that is what their restaurant cook friends all insist on having in their home kitchens. But it doesn't mean that crappy raw aluminum cookware is the best tool for the job. I suppose there are those who would are motivated to share the preferences of their friends/acquaintances in the business who prefer jiggers even at home because that is what they are used to using and they mix a thousand cocktails with jiggers every week.
If I were behind a bar jiggering cocktails 4 nights a week, I might come to be so used to using them myself that I couldn't abide a measuring cup. But the conditions in a home bar are very different than they are in a professional bar: speed isn't important; visibility is good; pouring is out of the bottle rather than through a speed-pourer (speed-pourers do not seal anywhere near as well as a cork or screw-top and lead to accelerated oxidation, not to mention the possibility of fruit flies, etc.); waste is a concern; mess from overpour spills and transfer spills is a concern; "one round" of cocktails at home usually consists of a single recipe being mixed and divided into servings rather than many different recipes being prepared individually as single servings; etc. These things all mitigate in favor of measuring cups with a pour spout over jiggers for the home bar.
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I would suggest that DeVoto, while an entertaining author, can hardly be considered an authority on chemistry. Many of the things he wrote were purely for the delight of the prose and the curmudgeonly humor in writing them. It also seems that he envisioned people mixing up pitchers of Martinis and then attempting to store them in the refrigerator not only with the top open but also with the ice still in the pitcher.
I certainly would not claim to possess a better palate, but at the risk of having two active threads referencing the same Cooking Issues post at one time, it's worth pointing out that some people claim you can store a martini in the freezer without harm.To be fair, I don't think they're saying that you can store a bottled cocktail in the refrigerator or freezer with no degradation of flavors, etc. They simply say that there is no difference in the quality of a cocktail that is chilled be stirring with ice and one that is diluted appropriately and chilled by being placed in a cold ambient environment (e.g., the freezer).
The question of this thread seems to be whether one could pre-mix vermouth and gin, and then store that pre-mix for some number of days (either at room temperature or under refrigeration) with no degradation of flavors, etc. It's unclear whether the OP envisioned diluting the mixture with water and serving it straight from the freezer or keeping the pre-mix on the counter and chilling/diluting it with ice as normal.
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There's a difference between aging and storing. Aging a Martini in a cask could be interesting. There historically were some gins that had some barrel age on them. But, again, it's hard to imagine what would be gained over simply aging the gin by itself.
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I imagine it's a lot more simple than all that.
1. Vermouth is much more volatile than gin. You can tell the difference between a vermouth bottle that has been open for a few hours and one that is freshly opened. Gin, on the other hand, stays the same for a much longer period of time.
2. It's possible that some aspects of the vermouth might be lost or changed by being in a high % ABV solution for a long time. This is fundamentally different from mixing two similar ingredients such as sweet and dry vermouth.
3. People are very particular about the amount of vermouth in their Martini, so why be limited?
4. There is always the risk of the mixture picking up odor or flavor in the refrigerator.
6. The mere act of mixing the spirits and putting them into a bottle or other container will oxidize them.
7. The real reason, I think, is probably because it's not exactly complicated to mix up a Martini, so why tie up a bottle of gin pre-mixed with vermouth? All that means is that you can't use the gin or the vermouth for anything else.
There have been companies selling bottled Martinis, by the way.
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I like to steam it until tender and then run it through the coarse disk of the food mill with some softened garlic and onion. If I'm counting calories, I'll keep it as is. Otherwise, folding in some cream or cheese is very nice. It's good under or alongside fish or chicken. Makes a very good WeightWatcher-friendly alternative to mashed potatoes.
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A unique glass design could also be a candidate for copyright protection, with no change needed in current law.
Right. I guess this is where I am going. All the things you mention could conceivably be protected under existing copyright law as sculpture or something like that (or under a technical process patent). Unfortunately, it just doesn't take much to avoid copyright infringement. Change to a somewhat different glass and use a different brand of gin and you're no longer infringing. The reality is that the people consuming the cocktails don't care all that much whether the glass is a little different or a different brand of gin is used. Someone can easily take Eben's Melon Ball Cocktail, make it with cantaloupe instead of honeydew and, an oval saucer with a crackle glaze instead of a white ramekin, use gin jello instead of vodka jello and call it a "Melon Ball Cocktail." No potential infringement there. But someone is clearly benefiting from selling a "copy" of Eben's creative work. Meanwhile, Eben's hypothetical copyright ownership of the Melon Ball Cocktail doesn't do him any good at all. If Eben can't realistically benefit from the Melon Ball Cocktail, it's hard to imagine how extending copyright-like protections into this arena would promote the creation of more and/or better "mixological works."
If someone's goal is to skirt copyright by making minor changes then that's difficult to avoid in several fields. But in a world where cocktails enjoy IP protection if a bar wants to be able to say it's serving the original it's going to need to pay a royalty.
This is just a complete misunderstanding of how bars work. Or even restaurants for that matter. Since when did any non-chain restaurant care the slightest bit about saying that they are serving "the original"?
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We still have to think about what incentive would supposedly be created by extending copyright protection to mixological works. The point of extending it to literary and musical works is that it provides an economic basis upon which artists to create works in these mediums can profit from their creativity, an economic basis upon which to profit from creativity should lead to increased quality and volume of work in the protected mediums, and increased quality and volume of work in the protected mediums is believed to be beneficial to society at large. Benefitting society is the real rationale behind these protections, not necessarily benefitting the creators. The creators are benefitted by the protections only because it is believed that providing the protections ultimately benefits society. The rationale is that the protections are needed because a lack of such protections makes it difficult-to-untenable for creators to profit from their creativity. As file-sharing and such things make certain copyright laws effectively unenforceable, we have seen that the economic basis upon which is was possible to make a living in these mediums has eroded (whether or not this has had a negative effect on the volume and/or quality of works in these mediums is a matter of some debate). Its unclear how copyright-like protections would provide an increased economic basis for mixologists to profit from their culinary creativity. You seem to be arguing that the disincentive of potential punishment for copyright infringement would lead to increased creativity, but punishment is only the penalty that is in place in order to keep the system working so that creators can potentially receive the financial reward for their creativity. The first part of the argument has to be how and on what basis creators of cocktails would benefit from these protections.
What is your hypothetical scenario? For example, Phil Ward came up with the "Oaxaca Old-Fashioned" consisting of reposado tequila, mezcal, agave syrup and bitters. This cocktail has grown to have widespread popularity. How would Phil potentially benefit from owning copyright-like protections for this drink? How would these protections prevent any bar from selling the same cocktail with the same name? How would these protections prevent anyone from walking into a non-Phil Ward bar and ordering an Oaxaca Old-Fashioned, even teaching the recipe to the bartender if he doesn't know it? On what basis could it be determined what kind of royalty is owed to Phil for a bar serving this drink? What parts of that cocktail could possibly be protected? Is there any way to meaningfully assign the sole intellectual property ownership of "a cocktail called the 'Oaxaca Old-Fashioned' consisting of reposado tequila, mezcal, agave syrup and bitters" to Phil, or wouldn't the potential copyright have to be significantly more narrow? If it would have to be significantly more narrow, wouldn't it effectively be worthless, and wouldn't that completely destroy any presumed economic basis for profiting through creativity presumably encouraged by the protection? How, then, would this benefit society?
You've already made interesting arguments that are convincing to one extent or another that certain culinary works "deserve" to be considered works of creativity and protected with some kind of copyright-like intellectual property. But it's very unclear to me how this would work in any kind of real world basis to provide the benefits to society that are the justification for placing these kinds of restrictions on the public's free use of the intellectual property. Maybe there's something I'm not thinking of, though. So I'd be interested to hear about a real-world cocktail, how and what kinds of intellectual property protections would apply, and how these protections would benefit the creators in a way that stimulates increases in the quality, inventiveness and/or volume of cocktail creations above what we see today.
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Granting copyright protection to culinary creations may be one way to shift the emphasis from imitation to creativity, by keeping pace with the reality of the changes in the way cuisine is perceived on the leading edge.
I'd say that's a significantly open question, especially with respect to mixology. You seem to be proceeding from the standpoint that creations like Eben's Melon Ball Cocktail represent a desirable or realistic outcome of this kind of creativity. But not only would I challenge the notion that this kind of creativity and departure would result in the cocktails world if copyright were extended to mixological authorship, but frankly I would challenge the notion that the Melon Ball Cocktail is a cocktail at all. In my opinion it fails the first and most fundamental test, because it isn't a beverage. I respect and enjoy this side of Eben's work, but this sort of thing is not the future of cocktails.
At any level below the level of "re-interpretive whimsy" -- which is to say, at the level where someone is creating a beverage that people drink -- I don't see that any copyright-like protection would even be workable, never mind helping to drive creativity. There is no way, for example, that Eben could possibly meaningfully protect his intellectual property in the Waylon Cocktail even if copyright applied. If I were to sell a cocktail in my bar comprised of house-smoked cola syrup, Woodford Reserve bourbon and soda water, and if I were to call that drink the Waylon, what basis would he possibly have to extract some kind of royalty payment from me or enjoin me from making and selling the drink? There's no way anyone can claim exclusive intellectual property ownership over the concept of a bourbon and smoked cola highball. But let's say that he could claim a copyright for the Waylon. Okay. So I can't copy it. But what is copying, in this context? What might have to change so that my drink doesn't violate his copyright? Clearly he can't own the exclusive rights to the name, or even that name associated with a bourbon and smoked cola highball. So would it be enough if I changed the brand of bourbon? What about if my ratios were a bit different? Maybe I could use a different technique to smoke the cola syrup, or used different woods to produce the smoke? What about if I used a different garnish? Perhaps I could serve it slightly unmixed so it made a layered "sunset" presentation in the glass? Many of these techniques would enable me to sell a bourbon and smoked cola highball named the Waylon that did not violate Eben's copyright. And they're all easy to do.
Another interesting thing to observe is that none of the currently protected forms has a utilitarian use. A written work can be anything. A musical composition can be anything. What you experience them for is the creativity. A piece of fashion, on the other hand, is something you wear as clothing. A work of culinary or mixological invention is something you eat or drink. And because of this, the opportunities for creativity and invention are not the same as they are for written works and musical compositions, etc. Meanwhile, if someone creates a kind of far-out creative work like some of Adria's creations or Eben's Melon Ball Cocktail, it might be possible to protect these creations under existing copyright law as performance art or a kind of "edible sculpture" if the creators would like to go to the trouble of jumping through the hoops and accept the limitations required to maintain the creations' legitimacy as such. But if Eben would like to prevent others from profiting from his idea of making a bourbon and smoked cola highball, this is no more possible that it is for Anne Rice to prevent the makers of Twilight rom profiting from her idea of romantic, good-looking young vampires living in the modern world.
But, again, there is simply no way that even full copyright-like protections would have any applicability to the sorts of drinks and dishes that make up 99.99% of what is served in the world. No one will ever be able to meaningfully own the copyright for something like the Red Hook cocktail (made of rye whiskey, punt e mes and maraschino liqueur) in a way that is useful, or that could possibly promote the advancement of creativity in the cocktails field. The idea of extending copyright protection to cocktails would make every single bartender's gin and tonic an automatically protected work of authorship, just as every crappy cellphone snapshot is an automatically protected work of authorship. But so what? It wouldn't stop other people from making gin and tonics any more than your copyright ownership of the pictures on your cell phone prevents other people from making the exact same pictures with their cell phones.
What I don't see in any of this is any kind of reasonable argument for why and how extending copyright protection to culinary and mixological works would stimulate the creation of more and/or better culinary and mixological creations, and frankly it seems as though it would likely have the opposite effect.
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Like I said, people who don't believe in intellectual-property laws at all aren't likely to be convinced that culinary copyrights are a good idea. But it may be possible to convince those who believe in intellectual-property protections in general that culinary creations are as deserving of copyright protection as anything else. Culinary inventions/processes are already patentable -- Homaro Cantu has dozens of such patents, and the big food corporations have thousands -- so that's not something that needs to be advocated.
Copyright is a peculiar thing. The basis premise behind copyright in the United States is not to preserve the moral rights of the creator or anything like that (this is different from, say, French copyright law which recognizes the moral rights of the artist). The reason US copyright law confers certain rights to the authors of certain works is the belief that doing so promotes "the Progress of Science and useful Arts." So every time one might contemplate extending these into a previously uncovered field of creative work, the question is not whether this will benefit the creators working in that field or preserve their economic or moral rights, but rather whether providing these benefits and rights to the contemplated creators will benefit the field overall and, by extension, society at large by promoting the creation of more and/or better works. Copyright did not originally cover things like musical compositions or recorded works, for example. One reason why copyright has not extended into the fashion field is that closely-modeled design "copies" help to create the fashion trends which lead people to abandon last year's styles in favor of this year's styles, and this is something that not only drives the creativity but also the economics of the fashion industry. Copyrights similar to those existing in prose writing would be detrimental to "progress" in this field, and therefore it seems unlikely that these rights will be extended into this field. There are serious questions as to whether extending copyright protections into the realm of culinary and mixological field would either promote the progress of these fields through the creation of more or better works, or whether any such protections could realistically provide any benefits to creators in these fields.
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It should also work with CO2, but this will carbonate the liquid and contribute some additional flavors and effects that the N2O will not.
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In the process of doing a little research on the relative energy efficiency of different refrigerator-freezer designs, I came across some surprising numbers regarding energy efficiency. For example, according to thisweb page:
Keep your refrigerator's coils clean. Brushing or vacuuming the coils can improve efficiency by as much as 30 percent.Those numbers, if true, are pretty shocking. A 30 percent efficiency boost from keeping the coils clean? I have never in my life cleaned a refrigerator's coils. I guess I'll be starting.
How would you even do this? Modern refrigerators almost always have the coils sealed behind something rather than open like they used to be.
Aviary Cocktail Videos
in Spirits & Cocktails
Posted · Edited by slkinsey (log)
I believe that Craig Schoettler (has a fauxhawk hairstyle in some clips) is the guy running the bar and designing its menu. And I should hasten to add that I'm sure he's talented. This really is an overall kvetch on my part, because the videos really do seem to focus on whimsical trickery rather than mixology. Then again, I'm not sure exactly what background in cocktails he has, either.