slkinsey

With the cold weather upon the City of late, my thoughts naturally turn to warming winter drinks, hot chocolate among them. Who makes the best in the City? NY Magazine lists their six favorites, Otto Enoteca Pizzeria, Vosges Haut-Chocolat, @SQC, Jacques Torres Chocolate Haven, The City Bakery and Lunettes et Chocolat. Of these, I've had @SQC's and City Bakery's examples. Thus far, @SQC's is my favorite. It's made with Valrhona chocolate -- thick, strong and slightly bitter. Especially good in their "fire & ice" which includes a scoop of bitter caramel ice cream.

As mentioned over in "THE BEST: Chinese Dumplings" thread, Florence Fabricant in today's NY Times says Rickshaw Dumpling Bar is about to open.

Nice feature article about Danny Meyer by R.W. Apple, Jr. in today's NY Times that touches on his move uptown with the Modern: In the article, Meyer says he picked Kreuther "because he was established as a major talent but had his best work ahead of him."

From Florence Fabricant in today's NY Times we learn that there may be a new serious player in the NYC dumpling scene: Peking duck dumplings?! I'll certainly be trying them.

According to Florence Fabricant in today's NY Times, rm has closed its doors and Rick Moonen is set to open two seafood restaurants at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas.

A small quote from the review is customary for posterity: The menu is apparently only in Chinese, and English speaking skills are not good. As Eastern Noodles specializes in hand pulled noodles, the following advice is offered.

For me it's not just limited to the third section, either. The abovementioned "siciliana" is actually in the "second generation" section, while the slightly more restrained "melanzane" with tomato, eggplant, ricotta, mozzarella, parmigiano and basil is in the third "Fornino specialties" section. IMO the Siciliana is the more "out there" of the two. That said, I think it's not so bad that they offer some more restrained and less copiously topped pizza choices for people like us while also offering opposite for those with different priorities. That makes it the kind of place where I could go with someone who had pizza priorities opposite to mine, and by choosing appropriately we would both be able to walk away happy. Next time, I might try asking for a little lighter on the toppings. I'd like to talk more with Ayoub about his philosophies for making pizza.

As pizza is much on my mind these days (more on this anon), bergerka and I ventured out to Fornino last PM for a look-see and had a delightful meal. Compared to the other Brooklyn pizza outposts, it is ridiculously easy to reach from Manhattan. Just one stop into Brooklyn on the L train, and Fornino is litterally ten steps around the corner from the subway entrance. I think it may also represent a happy medium between the minimalism of the Neapolitan traditionalist crustophiles and those with more American minded topping-centric approach. It's also a lot closer to Patsy's, et al. in terms of price. One thing no one seems to have mentioned is the oven. After our meal, I went over to have a peek at the oven and watch Michael Ayoub at work. I saw a strange empty space underneath the level where the pizze are baked, and was just about to ask Ayoub what that was all about when a blue gas jet the size of my torso kicked. It turns out that Fornino's oven is actually heated by gas, regulated by some kind of computerized system. I'll have to ask Ayoub more about this the next time I'm there for more details. According to him, they can fire that baby up to 1100 F on gas alone! The wood is only there for flavoring purposes, kind of like putting wood chips in an electric smoker. He also said that the oven took around three months to "break in" and "season up" (which is typical for a pizza oven), and that it's only just now that it's starting to consistently produce the kind of pizza he's truly happy with. I wonder what temperature he's shooting for. This accorded well with our impressions. He's turning out a great product and we didn't fine any of the defects, such as an overloaded, soggy or insufficiently charred crust, that others have mentioned upthread. Most likely this is due to making some production tweaks as well as the evolution of the oven. The pizza... we had three of the smaller "Neapolitan size" individual pizze (they also come in a larger "American size"): A standard margherita with tomato, mozzarella, basil and evoo; a "rustica" with guanciale, shitake mushrooms, parmigiano, tomato and mozzarella; and a "patate e salsiccia" with fennel sausage, fingerling potatoes, fontina and cherry tomatoes. The high quality, flavorful toppings are applied with a more generous hand than they are at Franny's and Una Pizza Napoletana. While this will surely please toppings fans, it does effect the crust somewhat. While Fornino's crust doesn't quite reach the heights of Franny's and UPN, it is thin, crisp and nicely charred, with a raised cornicione. Only the last slice we ate began to suffer noticably from the influence of the wet toppings, but by that time it had been on the table for quite some time. The margherita was excellent, with a slightly sweet sauce and creamy fresh mozzarella. Against this canvas, it was easy to taste the wheaty crust and appreciate all its variations from fully baked to caramelized to slightly charred. The rustica we ordered based on our waiter's recommendation, not that it's rocket science to know I'd pick something with guanciale anyway. This pizza was also excellent, although in a slightly different way. While the margherita allowed the focus to be primarily on the crust, the volume and intensity of the toppings on the rustica shifted the crust into a supporting role. Shitake mushrooms and guanciale are a match made in heaven, with earthy funkiness and funky earthiness reacting to create a synergistic magnified impression of earth and funk. Is it funktastically earthological? Or earthriffically funkaceous? I leave that to the philosophers to decide. It's good, that's the point. Alongside the rustica, the patate e salsiccia, while very close, didn't quite measure up. Due to the less intense flavors, the crust was more of a presence. The fennel sausage was very good (although not as good as Grimaldi's -- where do they get that sausage?), and the cherry tomatoes roasted in the oven made an interestingly rewarding alternative to the usual tomato base. The potatoes... the potatoes were sliced paper thin, and to be honest I'm not sure the pizza would have tasted any different had they been deleted. I'd like to try this pizza with more potato (perhaps thicker slices) and less cheese. Fornino will definitely be added to my pizzeria rotation. In terms of my own personal preferences, I'd rather have them a little more austere with the toppings and a little less busy as well. Some of their offerings -- like the siciliana with tomato, oregano, fresh tomato, anchovy, onion, eggplant, capers and olives -- just have too much going on for my taste. Even the rustica, which I enjoyed very much, I wouldn't mind trying with about half the volume of toppings. But, on the other hand, this is something that could be very attractive to those who find the Neapolitan crustophile approach too austere. I'd call Fornino something like the "Di Fara of the artisinal pizzerie" and would encourage fans of that approach to give it a try. For those who are counting, we had two beers, three individual pizze and a generous dish of pistachio gelato for $45 before tax and tip. That's right around what I spend when I go to Patsy's, and I left Fornino no less full than I do Patsy's.

Cutting fish for sushi is a slicing rather than push cutting task. You place the heel on the object you're cutting and mostly let the weight of the knife do the work as you draw the knive towards you, most preferably in one pass. That's why those yanagi-ba are so long. Well, I learn something new every day. Still, though, you'd want a highly polished edge to do minimal tissue damage.

Generally speaking, I would say this is true. However, there are certain circumstances where a straight gauge design is preferable (reduction pans, fry pans, sauce pans for making temperature-sensitive sauces, any pan that is smaller in diameter than the burner on your stove). Not familiar with them, unfortunately. The main reason this is happening is because a fourteen inch saute pan is way too big if you have a regular residential stove. Even an expensive heavy copper pan would have trouble performing consistently across the base of the pan when heated by such a (relatively) tiny flame in the center. Eleven inches is generally the maxium practicable size for a regular residential burner. It is possible to mitigate this limitation somewhat by using an oversize pan with an extremely thick base (e.g., Sitram Profiserie's 7 mm aluminum) and lengthy preheating. However, this will only really work in situations where you want to do extra high heat cooking (in other words, probably not sauteing shallots, etc.) Ultimately, you're better off frying in batches of using two pans. A 7.25 quart coquette! That's a lot of flirting, my friend! Okay, bad joke. Seriously... I think Staub is the best, and the 7.25 qt cocotte would be a wonderful choice for braising. The prices among the top brands of enameled cast iron are similar enough that I don't think there is a significant bargain to be had one way or the other (except for the Le Creuset "seconds" sales, if you happen to live near an outlet). Some people don't like a dark interior because they think it's hard to see levels of browning, etc. I don't find that to be a problem, and I do think Staub's dark interior is better at browning. But this will be a matter of personal preference. Ultimately, if you're making a reduction you're probably better off using a pan that is designed for reductions. I wouldn't want to reduce something down to a thick, syrupy consistency in a big enameled cast iron casserole, if for no other reason than the fact that the diameter will be too large (and thus the layer of liquid too thin) for the final stages of the reduction.

Be wary of seemingly great deals for Mauviel. Some web sites advertise 2.5 mm but, then you look at the shape they are selling and it's a shape Mauviel only manufacturers in 2.0 mm. This acitydiscount.com offering is a perfect example. It appears to be a curved sauteuse evasée with a rolled lip. They describe it as "extra thick," saying, "features include: 2.5MM thickness. . ." However, if we look around (e.g., here, we can see that Mauviel doesn't make a curved sauteuse evasée pan in 2.5 mm, and furthermore that none of their 2.5 mm pans have a rolled lip. But when we look here, at Mauviel's 2.0 mm pans, we see rolled lips on most of the pans, and among them we see a 2.0 mm curved sauteuse evasée with a rolled lip that looks suspiciously like the pan acitydiscount is saying is 2.5 mm. You may draw your own conclusions. I will only say that my own personal experiences with acitydiscount's people (which is a matter of record on Usenet for any who care to look) has not inclined me to give them any of my business.

Both Falk and Mauviel have the traditional flat lip on the sauteuse evasée. Mauviel, afaik, uses a traditional flat lip on all their 2.5 mm copper cookware (which probably works better with the traditional long-handled flat cover).

Just a reminder: Let's keep the discussion in this thread on the subject of ADNY, and the review as it directly touches on ADNY. For discussion of the Bruni's reviewing chops and general criticism of the review itself, please take discussion to the "Bruni and Beyond: NYC Reviewing (2005)" thread.

Performance-wise it's a wash, as they literally use the same exact metal (make sure you get the 2.5 mm Mauviel). The rest is looks and personal preference as to looks and minor design variations. I prefer Falk because I like the brushed finish and because I like their American distributor (who happens to be an eGS member, by the way). So, for me, it's worth a little more money for Falk if it comes to that (often it does not). For the 11 inch size, I think the curved sauteuse evasée can't be beat. It's the single most versatile and single most used pan in my kitchen. For a smaller reduction pan, I actually like the regular sauteuse evasée, because the sides slant all the way up whereas the sides of the curved version go vertical about half way up. Mauviel is by far the oldest and most respected of the traditional French cookware manufacturers. It says "depuis 1830" right on Mauviel's web site. You will likely find more Mauviel copper in top kitchens than any other brand. de Buyer also dates to 1830, but started off making sheet metal rather than cookware. Bourgeat is a relative newcomer at 1913, and Falk Culinair is not old at all. Bourgeat, I am given to understand, no longer manufacturers its own copper cookware. This is incorrect, unless there was some other process that was in use before the current one. Falk Culinair and the University of Louvain developed the current process by which a thin layer of stainless steel is permanently bonded to a thick layer of copper, and afaik Mauviel and Bourgeat buy their stainless steel/copper bimetal from Falk.

My knives are made with a very hard steel (as are many/most custom knives), so perhaps that is why I didn't consider this. However, along with extra hardness comes extra brittleness. A more brittle steel along with a more acute sharpening angle = recipe for chipping the edge if you're not careful.

Perhaps it would have been more clear if I had used the correct terminology, which is really push-cut and slice (not "saw"). I used "saw" because I thought there would be some confusion of terms, since what is typically called "slicing" in a kitchen is actually a combination cut (more on this below). Maybe this helps: With a pure push cut, the edge addresses the material 100% perpendicularly. There is no sideways motion of the blade. A good example of this is shaving. Tests show that a fine grained steel and a highly polished edge are best for push cutting. With a pure slice cut, there is minimal perpendicular pressure in the cut. The length of the edge is drawn across the material in a sideways movement. Tests show that a fine grained steel and a highly polished edge are not optimal for slice cutting -- a relatively coarse edge is optimal. Most cuts, of course, are a combination of these two elemental cuts, and a combination cut has much more cutting power. This is one reason most kitchen knives have a curve. "Flat" blades, like the currently popular santoku shape, more or less force the cook into using a mostly push cut action (which, I think, is one reason these knives don't perform up to expectations so often). How a knife is best sharpened will largely be determined by the kind of work the knife does. I can see how someone who cuts sushi, for example, would want a highly polished edge. This is a largely push cutting task, and a major concern is doing minimal tissue damage to the flesh. For an "all around" kitchen edge, however, it strikes me that a highly polished edge will not usually be optimal. Many tasks in the kitchen depend on a fair amount of slice cutting in the action of the knife. While it is true that the advantage of a coarser edge can be mitigated somewhat by a super sharp polished edge and a greater reliance on push cutting in the cutting motion, it is also the case that edge retention at this level of sharpness is not good (this is one reason a straight razor is honed so frequently) compared to a coarser edge and does not respond to steeling the way a coarser edge will. This is why highly polished edges need to go back to the fine grit stone with such frequency, whereas a coarse edge needs only a swipe across a steel. I don't think it's worth getting into specific brands, because that inevitably brings up counterarguments along the lines of, "well you have to try this brand, not that brand." Suffice it to say that I've tried a number of Japanese knives at a variety of price points. I think they're great, and they have their uses. I just happen to prefer a heavy, Western style knife. That's what works with my style of use and in my kitchen. FWIW, my main knives are custom made out of cast dendritic steel, which means, among other things, that they have extra large carbide crystals and an extra-aggressive "toothy" edge by the very nature of the steel. I wouldn't want to shave with them, but they fly through just about anything the second there is even the slightest hint of sideways motion. Eventually, I'll pick up a skinny fine grained knife for mostly-push-cutting tasks. I wonder what would happen if you were to have your Western knives sharpened to 15 degrees. I'm not suggesting, by the way, that Japanese knives are no good. They're clearly very good. I'm just suggesting that there is no clear way to say that one is definitively better than the other. Anyone in the market for a new knife should indeed check into the Japanese-style knives, because many people like them and there are many advantages to the Japanese style. But there are also many advantages to the Western style. For me, I like having a heavy knife that does a lot of the work for me. I like having my 10 inch chef's knife thin at the tip for fine work and thick at the back for power work. I like having a knife I can bang around on the board and hack through chicken bones without worrying about chipping a thin fragile edge. I like the fact that I only have to sharpen my knives a few times a year and swipe them across a steel when I use them to keep them in optimal condition, instead of polishing them on an 8 zillion grit stone once a week. I like the fact that a thick blade feels better in a pinch grip than a thin one. But, of course, I understand that there are plenty of reasons on the other side of the coin to prefer a Japanese style... or a Chinese cleaver. I'm just not willing to say that one is definitively better than the other. It's definitely a fact that Japanese style knives are here to stay. But it is also a fact that they are very trendy right now, and I have little doubt that another trend will come along in ten years that will leave us all saying "remember when everyone thought Japanese knives were the end all/be all of kitchen cutlery?" Of course, by that time the success of Japanese knives may have influenced the traditional Western makers (as Western knives influenced the most used Japanese styles) into, e.g., sharpening to a more acute angle at the factory.

If we don't have a consensus and we don't have to agree, then the jury is indeed still out. What I am attempting to do is inject a bit of balance into some absolutist comments. I am quite confident that we will never be able to say that one style of knife is definitively "better" than another. You know that your Japanese style knives are far superior to your Western style knives for you. This could have to do with your preferences, or it could have to do with the fact that you're spending around 500% more for your Japanese knives than you are for the Western knives. Either way, others may just as certainly know that their antique French carbon steel knives are better than their Japanese knives, or that their custom extra-heavy Western-style knives are better. Where I think you will agree is that everyone has to find the style of knife that works with their hand, with their habits of use and with their preferences in a cutting tool. I have been given to understand that a finer grained, more polished edge makes it more likely that the carbide at the edge will "pop out" of the matrix, thus dulling the edge. I occasionally use a ceramic steel because the main action of the steel is to straighten the edge. To the extent that any polishing occurs, it is to portions of the edge that in some microscopic way are less likely to respond to steeling. Any time you deviate from a pure push cut -- which is to say, any time there is any sideways motion of the blade at all relative to the direction of the cut -- you are making a sawing motion. It is one of the two fundamental kinds of cutting motion: push cut and saw. I find it extremely hard to believe that you employ push cutting exclusively (in fact, I think this is imposible in most kitchen situations other than a few highly specific tasks).

Definitely Irish oatmeal with butter swirled in at the last minute. Changes the entire dish. Also, what about compound butters? A nice steak or pork chop with a knob of anchovy butter melting over the top...

I'd say the jury is still out on this one. After all, everyone was saying the same thing about Chinese cleavers when they were in vogue a while back, and they are hardly ever seen these days. I don't dispute the fact that Japanese knives are very good, and even the best solution for certain tasks. But I also believe that the Western style hasn't been such a success for no reason. Right. To expand on this a bit, and restate it: If you have an edge on your knife, you do not need to sharpen it. All you need is to steel the knife and bring the edge back in line. I'd also add that the occasional use of a very fine ceramic steel (along with the regular use of a smooth metal steel) with a light touch can extend the time required between sharpenings by "micro sharpening" as it straightens the edge. In re to polished edges: I am not sure it's the best edge for all applications. A highly polished, very fine grained, acute angled edge is important when you want to do the minimum amount of tissue damage... like when you're shaving or performing surgery. If one is push-cutting very delicate fish for sushi or something like that, I can see how this could make a big difference. However, minimal tissue damage is not necessarily a priority when you're cutting up a chicken or dicing vegetables -- especially if you're using a sawing action in addition to the push-cut action. In these cases, my experience is that a coarser edge has a much more aggressive "bite" and actually does the job a little better. This kind of edge also seems more durable and responds better to steeling. That's my experience, anyway. ymmv.

The most obvious difference was the absence of white pies in the Brooklyn places we visited. Our local visits include basic red and white pies to taste the crust. cheeses, seasonings and red sauce without any influence from the extras. That's odd. I'm not sure whether Di Fara offers a white pizza, but Totonno certainly does:

I think Di Fara's square pizza is significantly thicker than a regular pizza crust, but since we in NYC trend towards a thinner crust than the national standard, maybe it wouldn't be considered all that thick. But I think you're probably right about the "doughiness." Some people, myself included, just can't get past the underbaked crust. To illustrate what I'm talking about, here is a (not very well focused) side view of an L&B slice: That darker area just under the sauce is a big soggy stripe of not-quite-baked-through dough. For something more in line with the real Sicilian model (sfincione, they would insist, not pizza), I like these from the Sullivan Street Bakery. Anyway... getting away from that, did you guys notice any characteristic differences between NYC pizza and Philly pizza? You guys seemed to go much more towards ordering multiple (and therefore heavier) toppings than we usually do here.

Since you're baking the pizza in an oven, you don't really need the long handle of a traditional peel. One option that offers you more versatility for your Looney is a large rimless cookie sheet, like this one. Used for pizza, it functions more or less like a metal peel with no handle. As for the dough sticking to the peel, there are a few tricks. As others have pointed out, a sprinkling of cornmeal can help. But in my experience (I use a very wet dough) the most important thing is to have your mise all set up so you can get the pizza built and off the peel as quickly as possible. If you watch a professional pizzaiolo at someplace like the East Harlem Patsy's, the pizza is built in around 60 seconds once the dough hits the peel. If you're really stuck, try dragging a string between the dough and the peel just before you go to the oven.

I think Spumoni Gardens gets the short end on PIZZA surveys because (despite the 24 ovens) it's more of an Italian restaurant that happens to serve pizza. The Sicilian (or square) pie there was an excellent example of it's type, and again, I thought the sauce was really good. Interesting. Our overall reaction was that L&B didn't make a particularly good example of "Sicilian" (e.g., thicker, square pizza) -- especially compared to Di Fara's square pizza, which I think is the best of that style in the City. And we weren't all that fond of the sauce (which, like their canned mushrooms, comes out of big #10 cans of "pizza sauce"). But, of course, part of this is a matter of preference. I can understand that some people are fond of L&B's undercooked doughiness (they do huge business, after all), it's just far removed from the things I personally value in a pizza. Anyway... sounds like you guys had a great trip!

Sounds like an awesome time was had by all. Just to clarify on the above: The cheese in slices is low moisture mozzarella (not fontina); next comes a few dabs of the fresh stuff; then comes some parmigiano (not pecorino). Di Fara is a special place for sure, and Dom is a real artisan. For those who are interested in comparing, there is a clickable index at the top of the NY Pizza Survey thread that will take you to the various places we've visited as a group. I'll be interested especially to read reactions to L&B, which seriously underwhelmed the NY group.

Here's the thread. I'm still not totally convinced about mixing the soup into the pork -- although it makes a bit more sense to mix cubes of gelatinized stock into the pork as opposed to liquid soup (the recipe you found says "use before it gelatinizes"). We should get someone to ask Cecil at China 46 what he does to make his.