[Are cooks underpaid?]

So in other words, if you're willing to freelance, life is just jim-dandy.

[Are cooks underpaid?]

You know who's really underpaid?  Food writers. And that leads to all kinds of corruption.

I made a hell of lot more when I was working as a chef.

Did you know that going in? If so , why the switch?

As an employee of a major newspaper, do you not get benefits that you would not get as a chef (assuming you didn't work in a unionized environment)?

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

Jersey 13, not to get too off topic, I'll PM you. 

Thanks Lesley. For a minute there I thought you didn't want an amateur diluting the professional programs.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

Let me see if I understand this:  People who would like to participate in learning the skills and obtaining the knowledge one can get at  culinary schools merely because they have a genuine passion for the subject are somehow less worthy than people who want to learn because down the road they can earn money?

Very interesting.

Welcome to eGullet Arlene!

And yup, that would about summarize several pages of arguments up to this point. However, it seems now that people are coming around to the idea that amateurs are soemwhat acceptable in the professional vocational milieu, so long as they don not comprise more than a certain percentage of the class and are not an impediment to those pursuing a career in the chosen subject.

I can go along with that, but I also believe that under the circumstances I mentioned above, the onus is on the instructor to keep the class moving at the "professional" pace.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

Lesley, where in Montreal do people go to become professional pastry chefs?  Are there separate programs or are they all rolled in with professional cooking?

Does this mean you don't wish to tell me?

[Best Pastry Chef/Desserts in Montreal]

We've had threads for the best coffee, seafood, pizza etc, so for all the sweet toothed eGulleters out there, where are the best places to get great desserts? I'm not talking bakeries and we all know about Kilo, Calories and Second Cup (if you consider Second Cup to have great desserts. Personally I can't even stand their coffee, but that's another story ) It just seems that the existing dessert spots all buy from the same supplier.

Soooo.....I'm looking for either restaurants that allow patrons to just order dessert (that's I tough one, I imagine)or establishments designated for the dessert and coffee crowd.

Let's hear 'em!

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

slkinsey is right. If I was condescending or arrogant I wouldn't have lasted a week as a teacher.

The worst aspect of teaching amateurs is the lack of time and continuation. You just can't get that much done in a three hour class.

Soba, the big difference between school and work is the way you spend your day. When you're in cooking school the program changes every day. At work it's the same routine day in and day out. Right after school, I started working in a terrific pastry shop. It was great at first but I soon realized we were just making the same things over and over and over again. After about three months on the job I knew my life would be wasted working in such conditions. The word tedious hardly begins to describe the life of a pastry shop commis. The learning stops real fast and then it becomes routine. I used to watch guys have cake icing competitions because they were so bloody bored. You know what it's like to spend every Tuesday of your life icing hundreds of birthday cakes, every Wednesday making hundreds of Fraisiers, every Thursday brushing corn starch off liqueur centers, or every Friday filling thousands of mini quiches, baking hundreds of tuiles, or rolling tens of thousands of cheese straws. I do, and that's not learning. That's torture.

Lesley, where in Montreal do people go to become professional pastry chefs? Are there separate programs or are they all rolled in with professional cooking?

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

But she does have a point, though: people who take couses for kicks are a completely different animal as compared to the serious amateurs.

Every job has it's pitfalls.

Point well taken.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

Makes sense Beans...

But she does have a point, though: people who take couses for kicks are a completely different animal as compared to the serious amateurs.

Bux: Your last paragraph about sums it up for me. Well said.

[Soto]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's a location out near me but if I've seen 10 people in there since it opened over a year ago, that would be a generous estimate. There is already a successful sushi biz in this neck of the woods and I don't believe that there is such a huge demand for it, that the area can support more than a few. Plus, Soto was pricey in comparison. Katsura offers much better prices and they're great for freshness.The last time I stopped in at Soto, my sushi wasn't quite right and I vowed never to visit that location again.

Interestingly enough a new sushi place (can't recall the name) is opening a mere stone's throw from the WI location of Soto. Go figure..

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

I grew to loath teaching amateurs because I couldn’t be honest with them. They paid to be in class, so how dare I tell them their tart looked like crap or their piping skills were laughable. You make comments like that to professional students all the time, in fact it’s essential to their progress. But with amateurs I felt honesty was often the worst policy.

Ugh. How about coaching their dismal piping skills instead of telling them that their technique is laughable? Why lie? After all they are paying you to teach them how to do x, y or z.

When I enroll in a "professional" culinary school, I'm paying them too, they better tell me if I suck. My law professors didn't hold back if something was flimsy at best.

I think you said it best -- you loathe teaching amateurs. That's fine.

I loathe arrogance in teaching.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't think Lesley's intending to be arrogant. Having taught adult learners and kids alike (different subject mind you) and participated in continuing education programs, I noticed that there tended to be an "I came to get what I paid for, so you just keep your negativity to yourself" type attitude among what we've been calling the "hobbyists" in the groups.

While their reasons for being in the courses may well be completely different from those with the passion for the subject and I will support their right to participate, I found that some lacked the courtesy to allow others to get what they needed out of the courses too, or weren't disciplined enough to check their egos at the door.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

When I went to cooking school I thought I'd be surrounded by privileged kids like me who had already traveled quite a bit and had grown up reading Gourmet magazine. I was shocked to see my class was full of kids who knew nothing about white truffles and extra-virgin olive oil but who decided they wanted to cook for a living because hospital cooks make a starting salary of $15/hour. I was soon to learn that kids like me were in the minority and the reality of the profession was people who saw cooking as a job, not a calling or a passion.

welcome to real life?

You got it Tommy.

My background is in Marketing/PR. Not too long ago I saw a job posted for cafetiria kitchen help at a major pharmaceutical company near my home. Convenient hours with benefits. Given that I enjoy cooking, etc, I told myself if the money was right, I would apply. Turns out it wasn't, but, had it been,my life would have changed pretty drastically.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

...I still think the hobbyists have the right to attend if they are paying the dies and doing the required work.

Of course they do... unless the school decides they do not want to admit them. Then they don't. No one has the "right" to attend a private educational institution.

But I think here we are discussing institutions that ARE allowing them. Obviously it would exclude the ones that don't admit them.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

I fail to understand why a for-profit organisation should go to such lengths to discourage people who have both the qualifications and the means to attend their classes.

Sure, a class can sustain a small percentage of hobbyists without interfering substantially with the educational mission -- with the quality of the product being sold by the for-profit organization. But there's a limit, and as a paying student with professional aspirations I would consider my own investment to be devalued by the presence of a large contingent of hobbyists.

I don't understand how anything would be devalued if the hobbyists have to endure the same courses and meet the same standards to achieve the end result of a diploma.

If you have a class of 100% hobbyists and they don't cut the muster, then they fail. Plain and simple. Just like any other degree. They get the same opportunity. If they choose to screw around, then that's their problem.

One of the things that gets devalued is the reputation of the school as a serious educational institution. This in turn jeopardizes its placement rate -- the percentage of graduates who go on to work in the field. To someone who wants to be a cook this is a big factor in the decision to attend a particular school. So it's placement rate suffers, and it attracts fewer would-be professionals. Eventually, the school will have to decide whether it is going to be a school for hobbyists or professionals, and market itself accordingly.

Edit to add: among some educational accreditation boards, placement rate figures significantly in the equation for accreditation itself. Without accreditation, a school cannot offer a recognized degree, and its students are ineligible for most forms of student aid.

True. And 100% was an exaggeration on my part just for the sake of argument. On that note, I don't imagine you would get 100% hobbyists consistently enrolling in these programs. It's sort of like auditing, I guess you can allow a certain percentage of those in a course, but the rest of the spots are reserved for those pursuing the degree. But I still think the hobbyists have the right to attend if they are paying the dies and doing the required work.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

I fail to understand why a for-profit organisation should go to such lengths to discourage people who have both the qualifications and the means to attend their classes.

Sure, a class can sustain a small percentage of hobbyists without interfering substantially with the educational mission -- with the quality of the product being sold by the for-profit organization. But there's a limit, and as a paying student with professional aspirations I would consider my own investment to be devalued by the presence of a large contingent of hobbyists.

I don't understand how anything would be devalued if the hobbyists have to endure the same courses and meet the same standards to achieve the end result of a diploma.

If you have a class of 100% hobbyists and they don't cut the muster, then they fail. Plain and simple. Just like any other degree. They get the same opportunity. If they choose to screw around, then that's their problem.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

If I remember right, Julia Childs was one of those "housewives" who attended Le Cordon Bleu. I guess she should of not gone and given that spot to someone else.

Yes, but Julia Child never worked as a professional chef. In fact, that is her forte, that is what made her JULIA CHILD.

Well I guess there's a point for the amateurs.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

QUOTE=jersey13,Jun 30 2003, 11:22 PM] How do we :

B) Ensure that it will not change after the completion of the program?

Not particularly relevant to the determination.

Sure it's relevant. If we're saying that these hobbyists shouldn't be sharing the same programs as the potential pros because they are not pursuing the program as a career, then I think it's definitely relevant.

And, how can we determine that a "hobbyist" won't develop the "pro/vocational" mindset during the course of study?

That's a good time to transfer from the hobbyist program to the vocational program.

And which pro will be yielding his/her seat to make this happen? What you're saying make sense, but now the logistics are a problem.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. How do we :

A) Determine the student's true motivation

b)Ensure that it will not change after the completion of the program?

There are pains in the ass in every class regardless of their true motivation to pursue their education.

And, how can we determine that a "hobbyist" won't develop the "pro/vocational" mindset during the course of study?

I'll be the first to admit that most students don't have a friggin' clue what their needs are, but what stops them from flat out lying?

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

But then that brings us back to the question of admittance based on motivation. Do we accept these people on a trial basis and then turf them for asking one too many "self indulgent" questions?

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

Sometimes middle agers and seniors who audit courses are more on the ball than the room full of undergrads surrounding them.

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

You don’t have to be poor or struggling to be a chef, but professional cooking should be a profession open to those who might not have the funds or grades to attend university. These elite schools are off-limits for that group. 

And I have news for you, most Michelin-starred chefs are working to pay the astronomical bills they face in their restaurants. I’d go so far as to see these guys have to work even harder to pay the bills.

You can learn a great deal with a good teacher. But the technique gained through practice makes a great chef. Talent can only get you so far. Unless you are catering through your home kitchen, I don’t see how you would gain that kind of technical experience and practice.

Inner city neighborhoods aren’t filled with people who have time to spend in a 30 week program learning to cook. Inner city neighborhoods are filled with people who could use excellent government-funded culinary schools to teach them how to cook professionally, not for personal, but professional gain.

I agree that everyone deserves a great education, and that is precisely why I’m against elite schools like the FCI, CCI, CIA and LCB that feed off people who are forced to cough up thousands for a culinary education. (Sandra, you still haven’t told me how much LCB’s Grand Diplome costs.)

The French apprentissage system is far superior, where a student goes to a state-funded school for a few weeks and spends an equal amount of time in a professional kitchen. These kids (some as young as 15) aren’t just there to learn to cook, they’re there to learn their future métier.

Anyone can enter the professional world of cooking. No one is taking that away from you. I just don’t understand why a school like LCB would cater to amateurs and professionals at the same time. Sure, give the amateurs a kick-ass 30 week course with great teachers and fine ingredients. For the money you’re forking over, that should be a minimum. I’m all for it.

But for the kids who don’t have a choice and who don’t have the money, open more public-funded professional schools with good teachers that focus on rigid rules, discipline, hygiene, management, food science, accounting, and cooking everything from hospital Jello to beef Wellington. Oh and there should be time spent in the dish pit (you learn a lot in the dish pit).

Okay, general question here: Are there no student loans in these programs? If not, how about regular loans? The majority of university students graduate with a debt because they couldn't afford to finance their education with their $8/hour summer jobs. Why does someone who wants to cook instead of teach or design bridges for a living have to be treated differently? Elite schools in any discipline are off limits to all but a minority of people who can either pay out of pocket, get loans or earn scholarships. I have friends in their mid thirties who are still paying off school debts and I'm not talking Harvard or Yale. Plenty of people can't "afford" their education, but there's a remedy to that if loans, etc aren't available: work, then enter school.

As for the the Michelin starred chef he/she may work harder, but he/she chose this life.

I can certainly agree with the idea of opening more publicly funded programs, but let's face it, if the program is so superior at a private institution, then that's why people are spending the money. And so long as people are willing to spend the money, these institutions will continue to thrive.

Overall I don't think you can discriminate based on motive because you don't know that the people who claim at the beginning that they aspire to be professional chefs, will in fact pursue that goal at the end of the program. If a candidate demonstrates the necessary skills to be accepted to and successfully complete a program, be it physics or baking, then what that person does with the knowledge is his/her own business. Just ask yourself how many people get undergraduate degrees in one discipline only to wind up doing something completely different after graduation.

Even those who have the fire in their belly at the start may realize along the way that they can't hack it , but I can't see how to weed them out from the get go.

[office food]

Back when I had my very own office:

A bag of President's Choice lemon Crunch Cookies

A box of teabags

A small jar of honey

[Are professional schools for amateurs as well]

I have never met an amateur pastry chef who even comes close to professional abilities.

When I read this, what jumped out at me were the memories of all the restaurants I've eaten at in the USA , Canada, Europe and Australia where the desserts were just appalling. And I thought of many desserts prepared by very competent amateurs which were stunningly good.

In the final test (that is - the actual product) there is not such a stark contrast between most ordinary professional pastry chefs and very skillful, well-practised home cooks.

For some odd reason, professional abilities among pastry chefs don't always result in consistantly fabulous desserts.

I'm with you on that jango. Some of the worst desserts I've ever had have been made in restaurants/cafés, etc, by what I presumed would have been "professionals". Some of it would leave you begging for Betty Crocker to appear and save the day.

[Rosalie Restaurant]

I'm not sure exactly when it went live, but the Rosalie website is up and running. It has clips of the interior and the menus are posted. I find the scrollbar at the right a little sticky and I guess it would load much faster on cable but it's a very elegant site. Kudos to the web monkey who designed it. It's impressive

Oops, I missed something....

Thanks for adding the link docsconz. I guess I forgot the obvious.

[Au Pied de Cochon --Website problems]

Okay, so "sucks" may be too strong a word (especially for something I haven't seen ),although you wouldn't know it from the tone of VM's post(yikes!) .So how about if he "airs his concerns about its timeliness and accessibility" while he has them on the phone?