cabrales

John -- Below is a summary of the section on cheese in Emmanuel Rubin's book (my copy is in French) "Paris des Envies Gourmandes 2002" (Paris of Gourmand Desires 2002"): -- Androuet Sur Le Pouce, 49 rue Saint-Roch (1st), 01.42.97.57.39: There is some type of counter (?) there now. Around 100 FF. -- Cloche des Halles, 28 rue Coquilliere (1st), 01.42.36.93.89: A bistro. The owner offers chacuterie as well as cheese, including camembert, saint-marcellin, grand saint-nectaire, sometimes livarot. Around 120 FF. -- La Ferme Saint Hubert, 21 rue Vignon (8th), 01.47.42.79.20: Famous fromagerie. 160 FF. -- Grand Vefour -- not the context sought. -- Montparnasse 25 -- previously described. -- Pain, Vin et Fromage, 3 rue Geoffroy l'Angevin (4th), 01.42.74.07.52: More than 46 types of cheese in a cave. Offers raclette and also some fondues. Around 150 FF. -- Le Verre Bouteille, 5 bd Gouvion-Saint-Cyr (17th), 01.47.63.39.99. Or 85 avenue des Ternes (17th), 01.45.74.01.02. 150 FF. -- For Stilton, Timbre, 3 rue Sainte-Beuve (6th), 01.45.49.10.40 -- For Camembert, Repaire de Cartouche, 99 rue Amelot (11th), 01.47.00.25.86; also Chez Rech, 62 avenue des Ternes (17th), 01.45.72.28.91 -- For Comte, Arpege (not the context sought) -- For Cantal, Maison du Cantal, 1 Place Falguiere (15th) -- For Brebis, Carre des Feuillants (not the context sought) -- For Munster, L'Alsaco, 10 rue Condorcet (9th), 01.45.26.44.31 -- For Cabecous, Au Trou Gascon, 40 rue Taine (12th), 01.43.44.34.26 (Dutournier's bistro; not the context sought) -- For Manchego, Casa Alicade, 117 bd de Grenelle (15th), 01.47.83.39.71 -- For Tarmicoton (a camembert cooked with herbs and white wine), Taverne Henri IV, 13 place du Pont-Neuf (1st), 01.43.54.27.90 -- For Belgian cheese, Bouillon Racine, 3 rue Racine (6th), 01.44.32.15.60 -- For "Hauts Plateaux" (high plates?), Elysees du Vernet (not the context sought) Note I have not sampled cheese at most of the places indicated. Please call to verify prior to reliance.

Very generally, I am willing to pay any price demanded by restaurants I have visited for food (except for certain very large abalone which are extremely expensive in Asia). I find that, if I am careful about wine expenditures, I can usually do alright budgetwise. Unfortunately, as I am beginning to learn a bit about wine, I am also becoming tempted by certain bottles on wine lists.

This thread is prompting me to go try Haeberlin's truffle one of these days. It's one of the dishes on my list to sample, right after the Bresse chicken in a pig's bladder at Bocuse, Henrioux's chicken F Point style at Pyramides, and the chicken in a bread crust (volaille en croute de pain) at Grand Hotel du Lion d'Or. **I'd be interested in members' input on any of the above dishes.** Oh, the Haeberlin truffle would also be below Truffle in Cabbage 'Michel Lorain' and Senderens' Lobster with vanilla. My personal goal (a stretch goal) is to have sampled three of the above five signature dishes by the end of the year. Separately, I recently sampled Pacaud's pastilla of tuna with dried apricots -- poor.

John -- Why wouldn't principle and profit sometimes yield the same decision? For example, if the objective is to have the freshest possible ingredients, the desire to use fresh ingredients is appropriate from a cuisine quality perspective. However, better ingredients are generally more expensive, so prices have to go up for the same profit level to be maintained, all other things being equal (artifically). Or take a restaurant's choice about the number of services, perhaps a place like la Regelade. Perhaps the number of turns a night for tables reflects the restaurant's desire to be inclusive and serve a large number of customers. That is entirely consistent with profit increasing. Viewing money as a necessary evil is not a perspective that I had thought about before, I'd have to admit. If one likes strawberries, for example, fraises des bois and gariguette strawberries are more expensive than regular strawberries. How is one going to purchase better strawberries without financial resources? Even if an individual actually preferred regular strawberries, money gives him the option of picking fraises des bois. Just like I might prefer to eat Joe Shanghai tonight. But I wouldn't want to feel like I couldn't have dinner at Daniel (leaving aside the question of reservations) if I felt like it. Not that I could have dinner at Daniel every night, but I wouldn't want to feel like I couldn't from time to time as appropriate. Also, I'd like to add that it could be more painful to be without an appropriate amount of financial resources if one had been exposed to certain things and would have to experience an affirmative decline in one's childhood/teenage standard of living as an adult. What if one had sampled Restaurant B as a young adult, liked it, and then could not go to resample the cuisine as a adult? Could one imagine how disconcerting it might be to have identified restaurants that appeal, and then be unable to return to them?

marcus -- Not that the NY restaurants mentioned are necessarily the restaurants I prefer, but I would choose to eat at Le Bernardin, Bouley or Lespinasse over Trotter's. I would eat at Trotter's over J-G. For Daniel, it's a bit unclear.

John -- That's an interesting statement. What if one really enjoyed dining at restaurants in France (including relatively expensive ones) and one needed money for plane tix, hotel rooms and, of course, the cost of the meals? Wouldn't money then become necessary to do what one wanted?

Katy -- Please check your e-mail as well.

On Saturday night, I sampled a "diver" sea scallop item at Charlie Trotter's. http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?s=...ST&f=36&t=11291 The idea of line-caught fish and/or fish from little boats (petits bateaux) (I am not addressing scalllops here, about which I have limited knowledge) is reasonably seen at at least a few French three-stars. The idea is, among other things, that fish caught from little boats stay on the boat for less time, and can be delivered to the applicable restaurants more quickly after they are terminated on the boat. Also, while I am not entirely certain, there might be notions that smaller suppliers have more of a stake in the integrity of the product delivered, somewhat along the lines of artisanal producers of such things as cheese. Here is a report from Steve P on line-caught sole (note the spelling of the island should be checked with respect to geographical information): http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?s=...ST&f=10&t=11232

Sorry -- duplicate post.

John -- When you have a chance, please discuss why someone cannot both be interested in money and love their work? For a chef like that, why would being interested in money diminish the quality of what he could accord to his clients? I guess, if a chef did not love his work, but produced excellent cuisine, that would not bother me. I imagine that toiling in the kitchen has its advantages and disadvantages, like any other occupation, and that a chef could produce excellent cuisine without necessarily loving his work. I'd have to think a bit further about that. Also, charging more does not, of course, equate to being motivated principally by money. Price, like other criteria, can be a means of allocating products/services that are sought after.

magnolia -- Yes, that's the chef. I don't know how involved he is supposed to be, but he does not appear to be actually particularly involved.

Michael -- This was my first visit to Trotter's. I believe it was the first visit for all diners involved. I did not care enough about the cuisine to ask the name of the apparently sous-chef. That individual was a man with brown hair, and he did not appear to have a French accent when speaking English. He was busily applying blue, yellow, pink and green highlighting to different orders as dishes were presented before him. He did not even say hello to us once. I would have expected at least some sort of welcome from the man, given that he was standing literally quite close to our table. The cuisiniers did not play a role in presenting or explaining the dishes. I would say there were about 12-15 or so cuisiniers, with 3-4 patissiers included. The expediting station was closest to our table, which was right next to the vacuum packing machine. Behind was the garde manger, then the patisseriers were in the final of perhaps 3 "rows" as one entered the kitchen. To the right of the kitchen table were the plongeurs, separated by a little metallic cabinet. Further along, next to the plongeurs and adjacent to the sous-chef, but still on the right hand side, was the meat station. I am uncertain where hot fish dishes are prepared. The saucing chef appeared to be operating between the plongeurs and the meat station. I'd say no, since I have visited many kitchens in France after meals. My subjective expectations were not particularly high with respect to Trotter's, and also with respect to many restaurants in the US. So I wouldn't say that my expectations were not necessarily met. My companions might have judged differently because preferences are subjective. For me, restaurants in France generally have better cuisine. I apply much more stringent standards to such restaurants than to restaurants in the US. On French tasting, it's hard to define. I'd have to say that, at Trotter's, things did not taste "French" in general cuisine style (that is not objectively a negative, but it is a significant subjective negative). I would not place Trotter's among the top three or five restaurants in the US, but my tastes are quite quirky. For example, I would place Blue Hill in that category, and clearly French Laundry. Also, I do not like to arrive at a conclusion regarding a restaurant's cuisine unless I have sampled it several times. Thus, the Trotter's report is a preliminary one, and I would resample the cuisine when an opportunity presented itself. I am unlikely to travel to Chicago specifically to visit the restaurant, as I did on this occasion, though. On FL, I have only eaten there once.

John -- When you have a chance, could you describe why you would prefer a chef not to be in part, at least, motivated by a desire to earn money? Why shouldn't a painter with exceptional skills sell all paintings at a high price, if there is demand for them, instead of donating some paintings to a museum for widespread consumption? A chef, like a painter, can have (note the "can" part) special talents and those talents should be rewarded, just like the abilities of those who excel in other endeavors. Also, as you know, a chef who wants to make a profit can readily harbor a desire to provide wonderful meals for his clients. I don't believe that the two objectives are even in tension necessarily. Separately, I'd like to point out that I would rather have dined at Blue Hill than to have eaten at Trotter's, in hindsight.

marcus -- The reason that I was not entirely happy with Trotter's is the food was not compelling. I did wonder why there were no amuses, but I did not dock the restaurant for that fact. I noted it because (1) I was curious about why a high-end restaurant had no amuses, and (2) I wondered whether the first four "courses" (so-called by the restaurant and so counted by the restaurant) were in fact quasi-amuses substitutes (with their portions being so small). I also wondered whether the restaurant might have been eager to push out the dishes, but that was not a likely explanation. We sat around for a while before the bento box with the first four "courses" arrived. I never expect additional dishes, in the sense of feeling entitled to them. One can hope for something, knowing that it might not occur, and/or be happy when something is provided, without there being an expectation or a feeling of entitlement. I am not saying I am necessarily the typical diner, but whether I had received freebies would not affect my likelihood of return to a restaurant. Either the restaurant's cuisine is worth a return, or it is not. I appreciate that other diners' assessments of a restaurant might emphasize factors other than cuisine, but for me, it's a question of that -- no more and no less, and quality not quantity. For example, it wouldn't necessarily bother me if Veyrat were gifting extra dishes to all adjacent tables (which he frequently does), without gifting any to me. I dislike his cuisine, so why would I want his "gifts"? Even if hypothetically I liked his cuisine, why would I expect him to give me dishes for free? By the way, I think some gifts are better omitted. Like Ducasse's bread. What makes the restaurant think I would like bread from the place if I dislike the food there? I think menus would be a very nice gift from many restaurants. The nicest non-food and non-wine gift I have received from a restaurant was a box of four different-colored napkins from Troisgros. This was so unexpected, and done at the very last minute. It was snowing outside after our lunch meal, and we had moved the car to the front to facilitate the loading of our luggage. M Troisgros came out of the kitchen, bearing a menu with a nice message and a box that I believed initially were petit fours. As we were driving away, I opened the box and saw these brightly colored napkins -- I believe, a bluish purple, a magenta, an orange and some type of olive-like color. The colors were in such sharp contrast to the whiteness of the snow enveloping us. The next visit, Troisgros gifted a magenta apron to match one of the napkins and a see-through bag of clementines tied with a pretty ribbon. Nice gifts, but they did not push me towards returning to the restaurant. I like the restaurant a lot, and will return periodically. Another nice feature of Troisgros is that they write notes for guests purchasing rooms, and sometimes they note that they welcome your return. I am sometimes happy to receive non-food and non-wine gifts, but never swayed.

marcus -- Your description of a single supplier providing a product (it is not critical that the product be essential) that has some demand and that is non-standard (i.e., for which there are no meaningful substitutes) and of some customer set (the customer set need not be large) is a good example of a monopolistic situation under basic economic theory. I am not saying that simple models apply to the three-star restaurant context, but just that these models suggest that the quantity of the product offered should be below the quantity that would apply if there were multiple suppliers of a standardized product (one of the conditions for perfect competition). Again, at the risk of being repetitive, my point is merely that there is an undue focus on whether a restaurant is at its capacity. That does not necessarily guarantee profit maximization. A restaurant could very well (and legitimately) choose to price higher, earn a greater margin per customer and serve fewer customers (in absolute number, regardless of restaurant size). Separately, I would like to take issue with the notion that restauranteurs should be "generous". It is nice if they are, but an absence of gifted dishes and low pricing relative to demand should not be held against a restaurant. Why should chefs not charge what the market supports, including prices that might dissuade some diners from visiting the applicable restaurants? We never ask Prada why dresses are priced relatively expensively, nor JP Todd why its bags are not more reasonably priced. Why demand that a chef provide more than what the diner ordered, or provide low prices? A restaurant has to maximize profits, like any other business. If a chef chooses not to select that as his goal, the more power to him. However, to expect anything other than profit maximization is to demand more of chefs than from any other segment of our products/services sector.

I would rather fast than dine at Gagnaire again, unless dining companions ask me to accompany them. A recent visit has not changed my views with respect to Gagnaire's misguided cuisine

As I have mentioned previously, profit maximization does not necessarily require that a restaurant be full. For example, using even rudimentary economic principles, where a restaurant is not facing perfect competititon, but is in oligopoly or monopoly mode (the latter, if one assumes that a cuisine can be unique), the profit maximizing price is determined under different criteria than if one were under perfect competition. Even under perfect competition, the number of covers that is ideal may not match the number of seats available in a restaurant.

Steven -- Taillevent is the *only* three-star in France where the chef is not as important as the owner/dining room supervisor. Even at Grand Vefour and Ledoyen, with their histories, there are significant chefs. And Le Squer of the latter and J-G Klein of L'Arnsbourg are only less well known because they are relatively new three-stars. That many two-stars have better cuisine than Taillevent only suggests that Taillevent should be demoted, like many other three-stars. It does not suggest that two-stars should be elevated. Obviously, a chef cannot rely on obtaining three stars -- see Dutournier, Roellinger to date, Chibois -- from Michelin, as your earlier post so directly suggested. As to your reference to talent, that is in the eye of the beholder. And your reference to there being "tons" of two-stars chefs who would be sufficiently talented is amusing to me. You appear to have a more generous notion of who is talented, with respect to culinary matters, than I do.

Steven -- Obviously, a chef has to have a certain cuisine before he has a chance to receive three stars. It's hardly as though new entrants into the three-star arena can *choose* to play there.

Andy -- I'd agree. I do not have a sense that Gallagher is known to too many NY diners. It's sad, but my suspicion is that not that many NY diners know even about Roger Verge, affiliated with Medi in NY (level of cuisine not yet evaluated).

The James Beard Calendar newsletter for October 2002 notes the following: "Dublin's original celebrity chef Conrad Gallagher -- who managed to lose his entire restaurant empire in his native Ireland due to a panoply of problems -- has set up a kitchen in Midtown[, New York]. His new spot, Traffic, is an upscale lounger that attracts a velvet-rope crowd. Expect classic cuisine like foie gras terrine."

I am uncertain whether this has already been reported, but the James Beard Calendar newsletter for October 2002 notes that H Keller is opening a large brasserie on Townsend Street near Second Street.

James Beard recently released the menu for the Delouvrier/Deutz dinner. Note that many of the pairings do not involve Deutz champagne, but relate to Delas Freres, a Rhone producer also owned by the Roederer group and supervised by Fabrice Rosset. Note tickets have sold out. (Having been frustrated with the regular membership level and the early sell-out to fellows and other members paying higher dues, I am a fellow member and was able to secure a ticket. ) RECEPTION Bluefin tuna tartare with yellow, green and red peppers; smoked tuna, olive oil and red wine Patagonia shrimp with vinaigrette of pea shoots, romaine and garbanzo beans Fillet of Atlantic rouget with salad of haricots verts, black olives and tomato Hot tourte of duck and foie gras with green salad Served with Champagne Deutz Brut Classic NV DINNER Sauteed Hudson Valley foie gras with reduction of verjus and shallot confit, Cuvee William Deutz 1995 (This will be interesting, as Michel Guerard also has a verjus-based foie gras preparation) Lobster in a ragout of butternut squash, cepes and chestnuts, Delas Freres Crozes-Hermitage Les Launes Blanc 1999 Brittany sole goujeonettes with fumet, tomatoes, fennel, and white mushrooms, Delas Freres Condrieu La Galopine 1999 Wild duck roasted on the spit with galette of potatoes and onion, red wine and cornas sauce, Delas Freres St Joseph Francois de Tournou 1999 Braised lamb shank with grilled leg of lamb, cranberry beans, flageolets, fava and yellow beans, haricot verts, and jus naturel, Delas Freres Hermitage Marquise de la Tourette 1999 Patrice Caillot's dessert selection, Deutz Muscat de Beaumes-de-Venise 2000

Hmm -- We tipped rather well, I believe, too.

Jinmyo -- Trotter trained "extensively" in kitchens?