Pan

I'd like to thank all of you who helped me pick a place for my birthday dinner yesterday. The food was very satisfying, the service was gracious and helpful, and a good time was had by all. It was good that I called to reconfirm the reservation the night before, as the reservationist had misheard the number of people as 12 the first time (it was supposed to be 20, though 19 showed up, in the end). Almost everyone had some trouble finding the place, although my directions were accurate. They tended to walk to the north side of the street, for example to Kum Gang San (contrary to my directions) or just walk past the place all the way to 5th Av. and back, sometimes more than once. But though some of the party was pretty late, everyone made it, in the end. We were given a private room upstairs which seated all of us, though only just (and that was sufficient and much appreciated by me). The appetizers were much appreciated by the crowd, though they really weren't the main event. Among the starters we ordered were scallion pancakes and seafood pancakes (good though not exciting compared to the mains), crab salad ("Western-tasting, not Korean-tasting," according to my father [i didn't try any]), shrimp salad with avocado (somewhat more interesting), fish pancakes (pretty simple fried fishcakes), and assorted dumplings or pancakes or whatever (it's the thing that's a special assorted thing near the bottom of the 2nd page; one - a brown minced meat patty [beef, perhaps pork] with minced onions, nicely seasoned, was delicious), some kind of rice with various things in it which reminded me of a risotto without cheese, and shu mai (at the other end of the table). The mains were simply great. We split 3 orders of bulkoki (their spelling) between us. We did have to cook it ourselves, but we did a good job with the excellent ingredients they gave us. I ordered a spicy broiled squid dish which was delicious (I ate the remnants of it for lunch today). My father was happy with a simple boiled ox feet soup he ordered. Various other dishes were ordered, but I didn't try all of them. The highlights of the panchan were two kinds of kimchi and some tasty stringy stew beef; little fish pancakes were also pleasant. Waitresses were available to bring clean plates for the pieces of bulkoki when they were needed. Some members of the party arranged for some ice cream (green tea, brown-colored red bean, strawberry, and banana) to be brought with a candle on them, and a violinist friend of mine - dressed in concert clothes because he had played a recital that afternoon - played "Happy Birthday" for me. It was a lot of fun, and much more successful than my party at Nyonya last year, where the food was nothing special. I may well book Kang Suh for my birthday next year, too.

You're welcome, even if the information is a bit hazy. I do remember eating there when I was in my Freshman or Sophomore year in high school, I think. I don't remember much about the meal: I think it was pretty typical north-Indian cuisine (though, in this instance, from a part of the Subcontinent that is now in Pakistan). But there was one unusual feature: Their firni literally had a layer of rose water on top. The rest of it had more or less the consistency of custard. It was very good. As for my grandma on my mother's side, she was a bit of an adventurer (adventuress?) herself. Her widowed mother brought her from South Africa, and upon her arrival in Brooklyn at the age of 7, she spoke nothing but Afrikaans, so she said (but perhaps some Yiddish, too, as _her_ mother spoke Yiddish but never learned English). At the age of 18, she hitchhiked cross-country to San Francisco with her sister. She often liked to talk about that. Imagine those two intrepid young women hitchhiking across the U.S. in the 1930s! Her sister liked SF so much that she stayed, but my grandma eventually made her way back to Brooklyn. You might also be interested to know that my grandpa on my mother's side was a vegetarian, and a Rosicrucian who had powerful spiritual skills. Reading auras was simple for him and not worth noting. Just for fun, he would tell my mother over the phone what she was wearing, even though she was thousands of miles away and was wearing something she had just bought and he had never seen. I know some of you will find these things hard to believe, but to me, all it means is that some people are more talented in so-called "extra-sensory" perceptions than others, and some people cultivate those talents more than others. He also believed in reincarnation, and so do I. But this is getting too far off the topic of this thread.

It was fun to write this, Suvir. The only thing I can say about my parents (and my grandmother) eating Indian food is that it was something different and unusual in New York at the time. I really can't remember with any certainty the name of the man who used to run the Karachi Rice Shop (not called "Karachi Restaurant"). I'm thinking Massoud, but I'm not sure. He took over from his father. The restaurant closed some time in the early-mid 80s, I believe.

My mother and father frequently do this. Sometimes, it's as simple as a "No good" on a dish that turned out to taste weird in a bad way. Other times, they cross out amounts of things and put in other amounts (such as increasing the urad dal in Madhur Jaffrey's Chettinad Chicken recipe - which we like to quadruple), and sometimes they add steps omitted in a cookbook. My condolences to you on your loss, and I'm glad it is somewhat assuaged by a gift that will always remind you of the life your grandparents led together.

Yes, my parents are both good cooks with gastronomic impulses. The Bulgarian chicken with chestnuts and the potato-yogurt-pepper casserole both came from the Round-the-World Cookbook. Some of you no doubt remember the book. It was put out by Pan-Am Airlines and featured dishes from various countries Pan-Am flew to. Many of the dishes weren't particularly interesting, but enough of them were to make the cookbook worthwhile. (Parenthetically, someone in my building threw away a copy in good condition, and I snapped it up, but have yet to cook any of the recipes.)

I see I've never posted in this thread, so though my reply is late, what the hell? I guess eclectic would be the best way to put it. My mother was responsible for most of the cooking during my childhood, though my father also cooked. Typical meals were roastbeef and creamed spinach or/and broccoli; pasta (often ziti or rigatoni, my favorites) with tomato sauce with or without meatballs, or with meat sauce (based on recipes from Il Talismano della Cucina as put out by Ronzoni in English translation); pot roast; meatloaf; and roast chicken with potatoes and sweet potatoes. Cucumbers were sliced for my vegetables, or/and broccoli was boiled (later, steamed) for the whole family; there was also a dish of sauteed zucchini or/and yellow squash slices with oregano, onions, sometimes tomato or/and mushrooms, and sometimes little bits of bacon; my brother preferred creamed spinach. Other dishes my mother cooked in my childhood included goulash, coc au vin, boeuf bourguignon, Swedish lamb (cooked with carrots, onions, etc., and coffee and cream [she used milk instead] - surprisingly delicious), beef stew with quinces and flat beer (boeuf a la flamande), Bulgarian chicken stew with a tomato base and chestnuts, which she always accompanied with a casserole of potato slices with yogurt and pepper, and Tandoori dishes such as could be approximated in an old gas oven. In those days, my mother still ate pig, and it was not unusual for us to have ham with canned pineapple slices for a main dinner course. My father cooked eggs and bacon or fried eggs for quick breakfasts, but on weekends, he cooked a "special egg" dish based on an Italian recipe. It had a lot of butter in it, and also anchovy paste, and my brother and I liked it a lot. He also flambeed kidneys with brandy and served them over toast, and cooked calf's liver with red wine and some kind of herb (dried basil?). Later, my mother got better and better Chinese and Indian cookbooks and added dishes like Hot and Sour Soup, Ma-Po Tofu, Chicken with Chestnuts Chinese style (Cantonese, I think), Chettinad Chicken with urad dal, spinach with mustard seeds, etc. My father gradually took over more cooking and has cooked almost every meal for the two of them (and guests when they come over) since 1992. He cooks mostly Indian and Chinese food. Yes. We were to eat at the table and had to turn off the TV. Yes. I don't recall. I remember people saying not to put elbows on the table, but I'm not sure who said that or whether my parents ever did or not. I sort of dimly remember them saying that and then putting their own elbows on the table, so that I called them hypocritical. I think I'll ask them the next time I remember to think of it. They occupied sort of a middle position between those two extremes, I think. We ate dinner at home most of the time, but going to a local Chinese restaurant or to the nearest Jewish deli, Gitlitz, didn't necessite dressing up and didn't have to be "justified" as a celebration of something or other. No. My parents noted other families that did that and sometimes warned us that if we didn't behave, they'd be forced to make us eat after they were finished, but I can't remember them ever following up on that. They really didn't approve of that practice. Probably at a Seder. I suppose I may have been about 12. Usually there wasn't. We weren't that religious, though a Sabbath service was often done on Friday nights, and that included prayers for wine/grape juice and food. I don't think it was that simple ever. I live by myself now and eat out and get delivery constantly. My parents don't eat the same foods they used to, in great part because my father can't, with his various dietary restrictions, but also because they like Indian and Chinese food very much. But they also still like pasta with tomato sauce and still typically make the tomato sauce themselves, as always. I think that the way I'm continuing in my family food culture is that I have wide tastes in food just like my parents did. They told me that when they were courting each other, they frequently went to a cheap Greek restaurant, and they also went to one of the two Indian restaurants in Manhattan at the time. My mother had previously gone to the other one, the Karachi Rice Shop, which still existed when I was in high school (on W. 46 St.), and briefly dated the son of the owner. My parents have travelled widely and explored different foods, and so have I.

Thanks for the recommendation, LESider. It would be great to find a dependable bistro in my hood. But my judgment is that this thread has been inconclusive in terms of what place in Manhattan might be better than Kang Suh, so what I think I'll do is get the complete list of people I need to get reservations, try Kang Suh first, and if they don't have room at the time I want, call Woo Chon. But as for the rest of the restaurants people have recommended in this thread, I plan to try all of them eventually.

Thanks for your report, LESider. I may be wrong, but I would tend not to order what I think of as specifically Japanese things, like sashimi, at Korean restauarants. But I'm not a big raw fish guy, anyway, and I can't speak for the rest of a party of what may be about 20. At this point, it seems like I may stick with the safe choice of Kang Suh, a place I know and always like but don't consistently love, though I wanted to try another place. But some of this may be decided by which place I can get reservations at. I hope to know by tomorrow exactly how many people I need to make reservations for.

Oh yeah. The review of Spicy & Tasty is coming back to me. I'll have to check those places out.

You don't have to be a Chinese food maven for me to love ya, Nina. You're a person of good taste. I also like Yeah Shanghai, New Green Bo, and Joe's Shanghai. Where are Spicy & Tasty and David's Taiwanese?

Which Chinese places do you like better, Nina? I'd love a list, and feel free to include Flushing. In Flushing, on balance, I probably prefer Laifood because it's got some interesting Taiwanese dishes I haven't gotten elsewhere, but it's really a different kind of place, as Congee Village is Hong Kong style. There's a Hong Kong style place called Wonderful Chef on Kissena near the library where I had a good dinner, but I haven't been back since, as of yet.

No doubt, the peasants have normally used meat sparingly and ate mostly rice: They were poor and couldn't afford more meat. But I can tell you that I ate jiaozi several times in Beijing, and that was a typical working person's lunch. A big, filling plate of jiaozi - dumplings filled with pork and a wonderful fragrant green herb (mint?) cost 80 fen (.80 Yuan) in ordinary dumpy-looking places in 1987. And baozi and jiaozi filled with pork were readily available in typical workingpeople's eateries right across from train stations in cities like Wuxi. Duck was the second most-eaten meat after pork at the time, it seemed to me. Cheap noodle soups could also be had in places like Suzhou that included pork or duck. So I really doubt that one can make a general statement that Chinese use meat sparingly. I might add that when I lived in Malaysia in the 1970s, I observed that Chinese people there - being less poor on average than those in China 10 years later - ate a lot of pork in local inexpensive restaurants like the one we loved in Kuala Terengganu. So what do the rest of you think: Do Chinese typically eat pork a lot or not? And if the peasants didn't (or don't), is that much different from the poor French peasants who used to have trouble getting even a crust of bread in the bad old days?

Foodboy: Sorry about the service. I'm sure it was mobbed tonight, as it always is on Saturday nights - not that that's an excuse at all. I, too, love the beef with bitter melon. As for turtle soup, I prefer mock-turtle.

Thanks for your responses, everybody! LESider: I really look forward to your meal report on the Manhattan branch of Woo Chon. By the way, I'm convinced that the Manhattan and Flushing branches of Woo Chon must have the same owner, because a review of the Manhattan location is up in the Flushing restaurant. Has anyone been to both branches of Woo Chon, so that they could compare them? Also, does anyone have recommendations of other (even better??) Korean places in Flushing, especially at locations close to the area between the library, the LIRR station, and the Main St. subway station? I won't be going to Flushing for my birthday, but I'll be there soon enough because I'm teaching two courses at Queensborough this semester.

All you fine folks have the opportunity to help me choose a place to celebrate my birthday next Sunday. My mother's Koreanist friend's favorite place is Kang Suh, but she has never been to Woo Chon. I like Kang Suh and have been there several times, but I had a delicious meal at Woo Chon in Flushing, so I was thinking of going to their Manhattan branch, at 10 W. 36 St. So what do you all think? Which Korean restaurant in Manhattan do you like best?

Yes, Nina, I've been to Mamoun's, but I don't get there that often. I like the place, though I don't like the lines there.

If subsequent visits are disappointing, I will change my mind. But Rainbow is at 17th and what? Do you like any felafel place that's closer to where I live (7th St. between 1st and 2nd)?

ranitidine: "Pan--Thanks for correcting my thpelling." [laughter] Daffy Duck was my favorite cartoon character when I was a kid. I still like those old Warner Brothers cartoons.

Some of you may know Habib from his previous place, which I believe was on 9th St. I didn't get a chance to go before it closed. He's on St. Mark's Place just west of Av. A now. I went for the first time today, with a friend. I don't think it's a place to ride 30 minutes on the train for, but I'm definitely glad it's in my neighborhood. I started with Shorba, a vegetable soup including pieces of carrots, zucchini, and various other vegetables, with nice seasoning - just the right stuff for a cold night like tonight. I then ordered a merguez sandwich. Sure, it wasn't as good as Zaytoon's on Smith St., but their merguez was very nice and flavorful, and the whole thing was tasty and satisfying (though without those great pickled turnips we talked about in the chicken shawarma thread). I washed it down with some mint tea which was subtle and seemed to be toned down in sugar content, relative to other Arab teas I've had. For dessert, I had semoule. It was an excellent rendition, with a caramelized bottom. The entire time we were there, excellent jazz recordings were playing, most appropriate since I was with the guitarist in my jazz trio and we had just had a rehearsal. Pictures of famous jazz musicians are on the walls, and Tony was identifying some of the artists I didn't recognize. Here's the kicker: The entire dinner cost $11.95. I will be a regular at Habib's place until further notice.

That's gotta be "We're all tho thophithticated I can't thtand it!" Well, for Daffy Duck, anyway.

Foodboy: Shun Lee Palace was still good 2 years ago.

compared to? I don't have much in the way of a chinese restaurant model to compare it to. However, the dining experience (bar, coat check, greeting, table, service and food) was...well... excellent. I think that you may exemplify the target clientele of the Shun Lee restaurants: people who wouldn't want to eat in any restaurant that isn't fancy. I couldn't care less. Coat check, shmoat check. I'll put my coat on a hanger or on a chair myself, and do that happily, for good food. And if you're willing to dispense with such superficial luxuries, you could experience some real Chinese food in Flushing or Chinatown, at a small fraction of the cost of a meal at Shun Lee West, let alone Shun Lee Palace. Maybe Congee Village would be pleasant enough in terms of decor for you. Expect to pay about $15 per person for dinner, and expect delicious food you'd never get at Shun Lee.

Yes, it used to be really good, and dependably so.

I used to eat at a Mauritian restaurant in Nice in the summer of 1992. It was more expensive and fancier than my typical dinner, so it was a good date restaurant, and the food was wonderful - a unique type of tasty, Indian-influenced cuisine that used a lot of coconut milk, citrus, and spices! Imagine my disappointment when I came back the following summer to find that it had been replaced by a pizza place!

Congratulations, Gary! I know you'll have a wonderful honeymoon in Paris.