Pan

Full disclosure, David: I don't think I've ever spent more than $130 for two people at Lupa, INCLUDING tip. There's no doubt I'd judge the restaurant very differently if I paid $100/person there, rather than $55-65/person, inclusive of tip.

Our waiter said that Wondee II makes their food too sweet. I think the Thai-language menu is more extensive than the "secret Thai" menu in English, and I don't know whether the pork special was on any menu (we don't read Thai).

I went to Wondee for the first time tonight, and I had possibly my best-ever Thai meal in Manhattan, almost certainly my best in the last 15 years or so. I told the waiter that we like not very sweet and Thai style. We got an excellent Yum Talay (seafood salad), the day's fish special (deep-fried red snapper with sweet/chili sauce), and a generous appetizer portion of pork with fresh turmeric/lemongrass sauce, an enthusiastic recommendation from the waiter (he said it was awesome, and it was in fact great). My only slight criticism is that the red snapper wasn't entirely fresh, but hey, it's July 4, so they couldn't have gotten it fresh today. The seafood in the salad (squid, scallops, mussels) tasted very fresh, which I presume is because it was frozen or on ice (a good thing). Everything was sneaky spicy - moderate at first, but ended up buzzing our mouths. The lemongrass was very fresh and all easily edible. Just an excellent meal, with delicious, balanced flavors. We parted with the waiter on friendly terms, with him telling us he hopes to see us soon and will recommend more Thai-style dishes for us. We told him we will indeed see him soon. One word of advice: Our waiter told us that if you want Thai style, you need to say that right away when ordering, because they cook very differently for Thai style than for non-Thai style. 792 9th Av., between 52nd and 53rd (212) 582-0355 It's a small restaurant, so no reservations. Cash only.

I haven't been to Co, but go to Keste on Bleecker. Very good Neapolitan-style wood-fired pizza at gentle prices.

Now that's information I can use. Specific comparisons are great.

Little Italy has an allure that NYC natives sometimes fail to grasp. Most U.S. cities do not have anyplace like Little Italy, and most cities do not have a restaurant anything like Peasant or Lupa. To the visitor, Little Italy is fascinating, and many of the restaurants there execute the Italian standards competently—which often is precisely what the visitor is looking for. I have taken visitors to dinner there on numerous occasions, and not once has anyone been disappointed.When a visitor asks to visit Little Italy, it is not a ridiculous request, and if you dine there they probably won't be disappointed. The fact that NYC has better Italian food elsewhere is utterly beside the point. So next time a visitor asks you to take them to Little Italy, you should indulge them. You might be surprised to find that they actually like it. ← I get your point of view, and when I went to Il Cortile several years ago, it was perfectly OK, though overpriced. That said, I think that nowadays, several blocks of Bleecker St. feel like a small and possibly realer Little Italy, lined as they are with one Italian restaurant after another. And on that street (though west of the most Italian-restaurant-heavy blocks) is a genuine and very good Neapolitan pizzeria - Keste - though they don't know how to make a decent salad, while Lupa is less than a block south and Arturos is a block south. Maybe we should have a side discussion about any other Italian restaurants on and around Bleecker St., because I do think that there's a kind of mini-Italian strip on that street now.

This is what I wrote after a visit three years ago: ← If I ever have an experience like that there, I'll revise my opinion of the place.

I should probably add that I showed up at Lupa on Wednesday night around 9 PM and was given an estimated 45-minute wait time for a 2-top (we went to Keste instead and were given a table almost right away). I'm wondering if weeknights are more popular there in the summer, but in any case, if you show up without a reservation, have a Plan B (and possibly a Plan C) as backup.

I've never gone to Pastis except late at night. I'd never wait on line for a table or spot at the bar there.

FWIW, I agree with this. In fact, Pastis would be at the head of my list of "Restaurants That Don't Need To Be Good But Nevertheless Are." I think it speaks volumes for Keith McNally's integrity that he maintains the quality he does at a restaurant that would be a cash cow even if it served nothing but steaming plates of pigeon shit. ← That's hilarious, and I agree with you.

You make your point clearly, and I think many people would agree with you. But I really appreciate this thread, because it constitutes information. What anyone does or doesn't choose to do with the information is another question, but do you agree or disagree that it's good to know these things?

I'm unconvinced that Pastis is overrated, though I'm certainly willing to hear some explanations of why. However, every cocktail or food item I've had there has been quite good, as has my service, so to me, that constitutes fair value. It's pricey, but that's because of the location and ambiance. I think there are a lot of overrated or at least overly patronized places in the Theater District, for obvious reasons. For example, John's Pizzeria on 44th St. is mediocre and really not worth going to. Another pizzeria that could almost define the word "overrated" is Lombardi's. Major tourist spot, because of its claim to being the first and best. To be fair, after a pretty worthless meal there with the eGullet Pizza Survey, I saw no reason to ever go back, so there's a (probably vanishingly small) chance that things have greatly improved since then. Meanwhile, Arturo's, nearby, has continued to put out consistently good New York pizza in a place with equally "old New York" ambiance plus good live jazz - though I'd have to say that, given the crowding there, it's certainly properly valued in that respect. The fact that anyone still goes to Wo Hop and that a fair number of extraordinarily misguided people (most of them not "foodies," but a surprising number posting to food boards like Chowhound) think it's the "best in Chinatown" shows that it's overrated. The only way for it to be properly rated would be for it to close or be considered merely the province of "guilty" nostalgia.

But how does this qualify as an undervalued restaurant? Was it empty? Was it significantly different in price from, say, Congee Village? I think what the OP is looking for is restaurants where you walk in, have a meal, and then lean back and say, "why isn't this place packed?" ← It's packed at peak times, with Chinese people. Few non-Chinese people seem to know about it. Its price point is lower the Congee Village, because the quantity of food is greater, and its quality is way better than Congee Village.

Just FYI, aside from the Dessert Bar, there is also a more informal Chikalicious Dessert Club, directly across the street, which serves cheaper artisanal desserts and $8 glasses of wine and does a lot of takeout business. My girlfriend and I went last night and shared a chocolate mousse cupcake and a glass of tempranillo. I would love cupcakes if everyone made them like that. Excellent chocolate cake with delicious icing on top, and the wine pairing (the counterman's suggestion) was interesting, because the tempranillo was not the least bit sweet but had an earthy taste that did interesting things to the chocolate. That was some of the best $10.75 I've paid in some time.

Has there been any press for Cantoon Garden? I found out about it because of coverage on Chowhound, and it's the best Cantonese banquet restaurant I've been to in Manhattan since at least the heyday of Congee Village several years ago but probably better. You know the soft shell crabs at Great NY Noodletown that got such good press years ago? The rendition at Cantoon Garden - not salt-baked (actually salt-fried) but fried with a great sauce - blows them to smithereens, even when Noodletown was more consistent (in recent years, they've been too greasy and salty too often for me to keep ordering them). They also make the best equivalent to "House Special Chicken" (they call it "Crispy Chicken" or "Crispy Fried Chicken," I think) I've ever had in New York; a wonderful circle-cut carp with a complex, scallion-laden brown sauce; possibly the best Beef with Orange Flavor I've ever had; wonderful fried rice with lots of stuff in it; excellent seafood and tofu casseroles; etc. Not everything there is great, to be sure, but I've had a bunch of really wonderful dishes there. Meanwhile, it probably hasn't had a facelift in 30 years and is the kind of place you'd never walk into if someone didn't tell you about it. Banquets only; their portions are way too big for individual dining. Thank me later.

Well, there's a bit of good shopping in Little Italy. Di Palo's on Grand and Mott is worth a visit. Otherwise, it's really a place to walk through, if that (I find the restaurant touts rather bothersome). There's one pricier restaurant in Little Italy that Fat Guy liked, but I forget its name. I like Lupa very much and haven't been to the rest of the restaurants that Daisy recommends, but I can also recommend some inexpensive, good Italian restaurants in the East Village/Lower East Side. My list would start with Supper, on 2nd St. just west of Av. A and Frankie's Spuntino on Clinton St. a bit south of Houston. I also like 'inoteca on Rivington and Ludlow, but always go there late at night and tend to have a panino or otherwise light meal there. They have very good cheeses and salumi, as well as salads, etc. and a good and well-priced wine list. Supper is basically a trattoria with an open kitchen and something of a Tuscan aesthetic for excellent, fresh ingredients and relatively simple but tasty cooking. I've been to Frankie's Spuntino only once so far but found it similar to Supper in that respect. There's also a good Sicilian restaurant, Cacio e Vino, which has very good schiaccati - two pieces of very flat bread with filling in between - and pizze and an excellent inexpensive wine list. I really like Lupa best of the relatively affordable (to me) Italian restaurants, though; my only problem with it is that it seems almost impossible to get reservations at reasonable times, but if you're going on a weekday and they won't give you a reasonable reservation, just show up, and you'll probably have no more than a 20-minute wait, if my experience is any guide.

For those who are interested, here's their website. The restaurant is at 31 W. 17th St. and open for dinner only except Sundays (closed). Petiscos ("small bites") $6-9; charcuterie $9-15; appetizers $10-15; meat mains $19-27; fish & shellfish $23-27; desserts $8-10; cheeses $12. Their wine list is also online and looks extensive, including a fair number of inexpensive bottles and glasses.

The photos of food in that restaurant are making me salivate! I'm surprised by how neat that alley is. Are alleys usually that neat in Seoul?

I misunderstand your turn off. I thought you were implying you knew the traditional recipe; thin yellow noodles fried with onion, tofu, chili, vegetables, tomatoes, and egg and why would we waste our time on it? Hence my reply that Rhong’s interpretation differs from the classic. Either way I’m usually curious to try a restaurant’s interpretation of another cuisine’s dish. To e/his own on Vong of course. But you have to consider that if it was not such a huge success his empire might not be what it is today. ← I'm not opposed to other people trying Malaysian food at a Thai restaurant; I just normally wouldn't do it, because my initial assumption is that I should get Thai food at a Thai restaurant. It sounds like this place may be an exception. As for the ingredients in Rhong Tiam's mee goreng, I'd say that they are totally normal in Malaysia. My main point was to indicate the meaning and spelling of "mee goreng," though. And just as fried rice ("nasi goreng" in Malay) is of flexible composition, the same is true of mee goreng; there is no one traditional recipe. It's true that some kind of tomato-chili sauce is a commonality in Mamak mee goreng recipes, though; I stand to be corrected, but I'm guessing that the list of ingredients in Rhong Tiam's mee goreng isn't exhaustive, and that they probably use chili paste or/and a bit of ketchup in the dish. I get your point about the Jean Georges empire, but I would also say that Jean Georges was fairly well known and definitely putting out some great food at JoJo before Vong was opened. I actually had a false memory that JoJo was my family's favorite restaurant in the 80s, but from the horse's mouth, he opened JoJo in 1991 and Vong in 1992:

Peter, you really had 10 sojus? How bad a headache did you have later, and how can you remember anything after all that alcohol? I admit I'm a lightweight, but I can tell you, when I have a couple of glasses of soju, I feel a bit unsteady upon standing up. No way could I have 10!

I'm not sure what $100 meal you're thinking of. To my knowledge, the 10-dish tasting is still $75. It's certainly a very substantial meal, but not insane. I couldn't tell you about the $50 5-course tasting, because I haven't tried it.

Eatmywords, wasn't it evident from my reply that I know very well what mee goreng is? My problem is with it being on a supposedly "Thai" menu. I don't know Thai, but I know there has to be a generic Thai term for "fried noodles." By the way, based on not only the name but the description, they are serving Mamak (=North Indian Muslim) style MALAYSIAN fried noodles. So is Rhong Thiam a Thai or a Malaysian restaurant, and where are the owner/manager/chef from? I stand by my viewpoint that Vong's savory cuisine was never an interesting form of fusion food. Chacun 'a son gout.

Two questions: (1) What do you think accounts for the supplement on the halibut? (2) Did you object to being charged for a dish you sent back? (I would have!) If not, why not? OK, maybe that's three - <Monty Python mode>no four, four questions!</Monty Python mode>

I like Pam's Real Thai but don't think I want to go there tonight. I guess you like Passon, Kathryn? I'll see what I can do. Their menu looked inexpensive and somewhat interesting.

It's been quite some time since anyone posted to this thread. I'm thinking of trying to book a 7:30 dinner for two at Roberto Passon tomorrow (well, technically, later today, though I realize it may well be impossible to get a reservation at such short notice), based on mainly positive press for the place on Chowhound, but I'd love some feedback from some of you. My girlfriend's other idea is to go to a Thai restaurant that has a secret Thai menu that she's tried (sorry, I don't remember the name of the place).