vivin

The last I spoke about the matter of butter chicken with my dad about the origin of Butter Chicken was a few years. But here goes. The butter chicken hails from the part of Punjab that is now part of Pakistan. The recipe called for melted butter being poured on roasted chicken and there was no cream or tomatoes involved. The original Moti Mahal in the old part of Delhi (a mere 1/2 km from Red Fort) kept the name but transformed the butter chicken with its tomato based sauce. The main flavors were the tanginess of the tomato sauce, sweetness of the heavy cream and the butter and the heat of green chillies finished off with cilantro (just garnish). No methi as far as I remember. The chicken used was a not completely done tandoori chicken. It was NOT a way to use their left over tandoori chicken as suggested here, I am pretty sure. Incidentally, the original butter chicken survived as what is now known at the Moti Mahal/Mughal Mahal derivative chain of restaurants as Chicken Dil Pasand - pulled roasted chicken in a butter sauce (all butter and chillies for heat). Very tasty, very purist.

My take on WD's food was that it was intellectual AND a pleasure on the palate. The desserts fell short in my opinion. Also, the wine pairings were so so. His comments on the skate were right on. So "Ignore Grimes" - I agree somewhat. But I will vote with my wallet and go again soon.

My few times at Mesa Grill have not been any better than mediocre. However Bolo was decent. If it has gotten that much better than when I visited a couple of years ago, I will try it again.

Had a very good meal at WD50 last night. Foie Gras was everything described here. Monkfish poached in bonito broth was sublime. Very very nice. Wife had the artichoke soup that she described as much better than both my dishes. However her skate was average - oily (clearly a case of heightened expectations after the soup). Desserts were good but not great. The service was very good, especially for a new place. WD was in the kitchen on Mem day, toiling over the sweet cooking range he got custom made in the south of France. Took out a couple of minutes to talk to us. The place was humming. My advice - GO.

Malik, I had a very similar experience to yours. I was surprised given all the praise heaped upon the place in these quarters. I am afraid of going back a third time and striking out.

I have had two OK meals at Diwan recently. All tandoori fare (thanks to Hemant) was first rate. Roomali rotis were very good too. Everything else, including Chicken Makhani (butter chicken), Vindaloo, Chick Peas etc etc were uniformly sub par. Kind of watered down in taste and spicing. The butter chicken had good chicken (tender) but the sauce could not keep up. Service was friendly and very good all around.

I have two new experiences to report. First, last month, we were seated downstairs and experienced the lack of attention and not so good food. Second, this past Saturday, was delightful. Seated upstairs. Had grilled quail as my main course. Perfectly grilled, soft and moist on the inside and crunchy on the outside quail was complimented by sweet balsamic marinade and grapefruit (fresh and grilled) on the side. Other good dishes included red beet salad and sweetbreads. I am amazed at the difference in service upstairs vs. downstairs.

I second Bux's recommendation for talking to Louis. Been to DiPalo's. Excellent. Also try their Piave. Very good, especially with a good earthy red.

I have had more luck at lunch than dinner at Bouley. Two times when I went for dinner, (once the chef's menu), everything was only ok. Nothing bad, just not very good. On the other hand, the lunch I had there (45 prix fix) was an excellent.

I have seen some items on the pasta tasting change about every three months or so. In my opinion, desserts are Babbo's weakest link.

Suzanne, nice report. your experience mirrors my experiences with the pasta tasting menu. vivin (more than a dozen yummy trips to Babbo, and still counting...)

mikec, thanx for the update. I agree with you that four butter based sauces are too much. I am surprised that the reserva wine pairings were not that good. I have never gone that way. I usually ask him to just pick out whatever he pleases - usually with good results. How do you compare this meal with other tasting menus that you might have had in other top places in NYC. I am not asking you to compare Italian vs. French meals. Just the totality of the meal (satisfaction with taste, complexity, creativity etc) balanced with price. cheers..

Charles, That has happened with me at Babbo a bunch of times. The last time, my wife ordered the white truffle special and the sommelier picked out a special wine (not offered by the glass) and poured us a glass anyway. He then came over a bunch of times, steered us toward the cheese plate and the coach farm cheese in particular. These little touches are there at Babbo if you show interest in food. No less than any other good restaurant in NYC.

I have never felt that I was getting less than very good service at Babbo (and I have a large sample size). Not when compared with any of the other usual suspects. I am not a VIP and my treatment at Babbo vs. other good places in NYC is similar. Having said that, I still consider the experiences there to be very very good. Maybe I do not know what I am missing (in terms of special treatment). However, I am pretty sure that I am not missing good food. Others, who might be addicted to special treatment at other places might feel they are getting shortchanged at Babbo. But then this will apply to any place they are not instantly recognised as VIPs. Why single out Babbo? In the end, it seems to me the question being asked is the following - How do you attain VIP status at a place like Babbo without being a celebrity/billionaire/family etc. I think the question should be whether you can get really good food at Babbo or any other place without being a VIP.

Steve, I think you might be out of luck at Babbo if you can't have pasta. That is there forte. That is where they show their creativity. As I said, the meat dishes are hit or miss. On getting better treatment - I might be wrong on this but I get the feeling that everyone who works there is proud of the establishment (rightly so) and does not take criticism well (nothing justifies that). I have found that flattery works well with them at getting better treatment out of them. I would suggest going to Lupa instead. vivin.

Steve P wrote: "But in this long thread about Babbo, not a single person has come along and said, here is the key for eating better at Babbo. " Steve, I suggest you read my thread with the following in the text: "In my opinion, things to remember while dining at Babbo - " The question of people's palates being biased by what kind of food they like best is of interest to me. My palate has certainly undergone changes over the years. I used to think that my palate was partial toward Italian more than other cuisines. However, over time, I have gravitated toward French food more than any other. In the past 3 months or so, I have been eating more spicy food than normal. I am sure this aspect will keep changing.

Things I like on the Babbo menu (in no particular order) for whatever it is worth: Beef cheek ravioli goose liver ravioli tongue salad pumpkin lune mint love letters goat cheese tortelloni pretty much the whole pasta tasting menu - pasta with bolognese and tagliatelle with squid ink being my favorites venison off the main tasting menu scallops marinated steamed cockels (sp??) with Thai basil about a dozen items off the specials including a killer linguini with uni and green chili sauce the current pasta special with white truffles the coach farm cheese with spicy fruit marmalade is very good Forget it, it is making me hungry ... I also had a really good meal at Lupa about two weeks ago. Those looking for REAL Italian food might want to try Lupa instead. I agree that Babbo is a derivation (but not a bad one as derivations usually are).

Interesting thread. I have been to Babbo about a dozen times in the past year alone. And I have not had a completely disappointing meal ever. In my opinion, things to remember while dining at Babbo - 1) Desserts are mediocre save for the cheese and biscotti plates. dessert wines are good; however the choice of dessert wines by the glass is small. 2) I now know the sommelier - he is consistently able to put together good wines with our food selections. You can ask him to do the same. 3) The meat dishes on the main menu have been hit or miss (more miss than hit). Remember, they let you order things off the tasting menus - they are consistently excellent. 4) The specials are consistently excellent. 5) Appetizer and pasta sections are all pretty much very good. This restaurant has been more consistent than most other high end places in NYC in my experience. It is high on yumminess - a rarity at the high end. And the price is significantly less than its uptown bretheren. I will continue to vote with my wallet and go there. Keep up the debate if it deters people from going there. It is hard enough to get in as is.

I saw a small Tandoor (maybe 2ft tall, 1.5 square at the base) at Khalustyan's (sp??) on 28th and Lex. It was made of aluminum (or some other galvanised metal) on the outside. think it was in the 200 range. I do not have space for it or I would have bought one.

Someone in the thread used the term jaw-dropper. I think it is appropriate and describes precisely what I expect when I go in ready and expecting to drop 3-400 dollars per person (or more at ADNY). Whether or not this is too much to expect is open to question. Having said that, THE ONLY jaw dropping meals I have had in New York over the past two years - My second trip to Nobu My first trip to Sugiyama (benefitting from the shock factor) One out of 3 trips to Babbo (the sample size is pretty big) Second meal at Bouley I think Nobu and Sugiyama are out now for various reasons. I do expect consistently excellent meals at Babbo and Mr. Inconsistent Bouley to sock me in the belly once in a while. Places like JG, Gramercy Tavern and Daniel do not excite me at all. And there is nothing akin to Passard's cooking in NYC to make you drool over the subtle. I look to travel to have jaw dropping meals. Whether or not my experience is representative OR is significantly different than the NYC high end scene from ten years ago, I do not know.

It has been about a year since I went to Lespinasse (and did their tasting menu myself). I liked most of the dishes. However, one comment did strike a note with me - For 3 dishes in a row (all meat), I felt like I was eating the same heavy meat in a red wine reduction thickened with blood. Not very good. But I dismissed it thinking it just wasn't my thing. Desserts were ordinary. No cheese course was included. It is indeed a shame for such a fine restaurant.

That makes sense to me. I think I did have the more expensive menu both times I had kobe beef not knowing that it differed in only that one respect. Thanx for the info on Makato. I will try and go next time I am in DC area.

Gullet, thanx for the report. Good to know Nao Sugiyama is hitting the high standards that he himself has set. Would you care to compare the meal to some other great kaiseki meals you have had (specifically where). vivin btw, Gullet, you spoke of a surcharge for the Kobe course. When I have been there, at least twice the Kobe was included without a surcharge as part of the omakase (which is the only meals I have had there). Would you mind telling us (or emailing me directly) how much was the meal?

My meals at Sugiyama have been extremely good to not very good (last I went was this spring). In what I have heard from other people (and experienced myself). it has gone from one of the best kaiseki places to just good. Hopefully, it was an off night. Hope you have better luck. Please report back if you do go.

Bean, nice report. I can't have too much of Babbo. I go there at least once a month. The specials keep changing and are almost always very very good. This place is hard to beat. I rate it above most other restaurants in NYC, including the usual suspects on all lists out there. vivin