Scott

I however have found the service on a par with mcdonald's.

I ate here when it was QC, and the food was pretty good. The space is dire, and I can't beleive that much has been done to solve the cavernous space that eats ambience.

careful moby. the owners of shumi might be reading. we don't want to give them any more ideas. sage words

He has already been replaced, some 2 months ago if I recall accurately.

Moby, bare with me here, I am being serious when I say I think this also might be part of the problem. I agree entirely what you have said BTW. But in France they have deconstructed the aesthetic of dining, in everything from Michelin chefs going grass roots i.e. Regalade; to a radical new concept restaurant in L'atelier Joel Robuchon. If our efforts to reshape our lifestyle/dining relationship can only come up with the bastard child of a bistro and a pub, then we're all f****d. Perhaps we just don't understand it well enough, or more like it's just not that important - it's not in our bones the same way.

I think, for me, that's the problem. there is often little difference between a gastro pub and a restaurant, except the gastro uses it's context to take liberties with things such as: price, comfort, service, amongst others.

it's gone up

Now they come out of the woodwork

Scott, The society meets twice monthly will expect to you see you there

Good point. These things are always relative though, aren't they? When you get to that 250gbp per head level I think I think value for money goes out of the window. Does that sound completely terrible? No it just sounds like we should spend more time at lunch, and more evenings in Nandos.

Matthew you're relationship with this restaurant is surely an illicit love that dare not speak it's name in case you want to consumate it, I have it on very good authority that this restaurant is up for sale, either freehold or taking up the lease.

Tarka, You went for dinner at sketch and lunch at Le Manoir. I did it the other way round and found Sketch better value for money. Neither seems too concerned with relative value for money.

they do indeed. £50 per bottle

Opson, so many axes to grind, so few threads...

went along with the wife to le manoir on saturday night, and had the menu gourmand. A snip at £95. the evening was a contrast between what was right and what was wrong for me. First off it is a very good restaurant, but slightly below what it thinks of itself. we were led into the lounge for an aperitif prior to taking your table, I get the impression this is mandatory. This would be fine if it did not have the atmosphere of a library. we were eventually given menu's - after about 25 minutes. all looked good, and we ordered the 7 course degustation. perusing the wine list, I noted 2 things: 1. there was a lot of pages, but a lot less real choice. 2. the wine list has the highest gp I think I have ever seen. ever. there were no bargains, or good choices just ridiculous thievery. Few bottles under £35 and those that were, barely worth the effort. I am going to go off now, so bare with me It was a special occasion so I needed to order regardless, I couldn't use my fall back of "f*** you, bring me water", so I made the best of it: A half bottle of Rully - £23 (retail £6). When opened had a strange fungal, autolytical note, I commented that I didn't think it was corked, but neither did it strike me as correct. Our waiter came back and informed me the sommelier agreed that it was probably oxidised and proceeded to pour the wine. Any other time, I would not have accepted this - The wine was below par, take it back - but not tonight. A half of sauterne I accepted a recommendation a 96 half, I hadn't noticed the bottle but the bill showed a different not so good (and more expensive) one. I had thought it lacked richness, and when I saw the bill I realised why, it wasn't what we ordered. what the hey, it was only £43 for a half of wine obtainable for less than a tenner. then a bottle of Burgundy, just basic Givry - £49 for a £12 wine. rock and roll people. enough of that, but I was not impressed. Whilst we sat in the overly coiffured lounge, a small plate of canapes was presented to us which were delicious. I was annoyed to recall on the menu, they were considered a 'course'. That always rankles with me, a pre-desert is not a course, an amuse is not a course, and f***ing coffee is not a course, here there was nothing served that was not listed on the menu as a course. Having moved to a beautiful table in the dining room looking onto the gardens I noticed that the dining room was much more romantic and atmospheric in the evening than the day. I don't have the menu in front of me, so please bare with my rough recollection ~ Gazpacho this didn't have the customary richness I expect from a first rate gazpacho, but it did have impeccable balance and hinted at a complexity of flavour trying to burst through. This was a lovely refereshing start. ~ Pan fried scallop on sauce vierge this too had a lovely sweetness, well complemented by cannellini beans in the sauce giving a nice satisfying meatiness and texture. ~ Poached cornish Brill in lemon verbena beurre blanc the brill was cooked perfectly, and the sauce reminded me of a delicate thai green curry sauce. Substitute verbena for grass... this was complex and interesting. My only complaint was the shape of the bowl and the fork provided didn't allow me access to the remaining sauce in the bottom. ~ Roast anjou squab with a capuccion of white beans ungenerous as the squab was the size of a single frogs leg. The meat was a little overcooked and tough. Uninteresting flavour combination and the textures didn't press any buttons either. dull. ~ Poached peach in sauternes absolutely lovely, supremely well balanced, and less than a mouthful. it was a pre-dessert. pity as it was far superior to the actual dessert. ~ Chocolate fondant with amaretto ice cream perfectly acceptable and slightly dull choc fondant with blanched almonds and pistacchio's. could, and have, had similar in any number of restaurants. Had a better, almost identical dish at Aurora in the Gt Eastern Hotel 2 weeks ago. now was waiting for the birthday cake I had ordered. waiting waiting waiting ****'s have forgotten waiting let's call it 20 minutes. We ordered coffee, and asked if we cared to retire into the lounge. No, I thought perhaps if we stay it will remind them they we are still waiting for something. Another 20 minutes passed and the coffee arrived with the cake. hooray. by which time I just wanted to leave, and they boxed it up. Seeing as they charge plenty for these cakes, and they have to be ordered days in advance, I was not overly impressed. could you guess? This was just another example of the service not really being up to snuff, not bad, not great, just not quite. there were at least 3 proper service faux pas. the bill was horrendous, the food was good to very good (which is not good enough), the service erratic, the wine criminal. It just wasn't nearly enough. As this was grand prix weekend, and BAR Honda had hired out half the place, I thought they might be on their toes. sadly not. Perhaps this was why on such a busy weekend, the restaurant was only about 3/4 full at most. I think they are in no more danger of gaining a 3 star, as they are of losing one. I would not return, except maybe for lunch.

was there on saturday night, was less impressed. will write more soon.

Tarka, I kinda get where you're coming from, but isn't that a bit nebullous? I guess I am not really sure what all that means. For me, a gastro pub, is: 1. a pub - i.e. oriented around drinking and convivial gathering. 2. serves good food to pub goers 3. does not have pretensions towards being a restaurant or bistro. 4. no there certainly isn't linen As an example, the Earl Spencer mentioned above, is a nice little venue - but it's not a pub. put my 2 cents into the egullet piggy bank.

Scott, Just be aware that there are those who believe St John to be the high temple duke of gimmickry. You may well love it, many do, I myself hope to stand for president of the "st john is pants, wake up you fools, honorary society" Some place I think are interesting: Pied a Terre - 2 * characterised by modern bold flavours. Hakkasan - my word the food here is cracking. Mju - Also modern fusion, much better than providores. they often do deals, watch for them. Foliage - lunch. great value classical french. here tomato is king. Latium - great value, contemporary italian. Andrew Edmunds - cozy feel good romance palace. food not bad. One o One - best seafood in britain without exception. superb haute seafood cuisine, in case you can't make it brittany. rooms sucks, but some of the best seafood you could hope for. Eric Ripert take note. Nahm - drink water, but the food is super charged thai. Rotiserrie Jules (South Ken)- great roast chicken, and allows your wallet time to breathe. Racine - bloody good french bistro. Am thinking of ditching the wife, and betrothing myself to the fish soup. hmmm as it's her birthday today, forget I said that. Tsunami - nobu esque but cheaper and more fun. there are lot's of interesting places in London to eat, I am sure you'll do well whatever choices you make.

whatever indeed sir.

so true it's petrifying.

is there any reason other than a clumsy adria reference to think the Fat Duck is Spanish?

You sir are a selfless humanitarian

Gav, just had another look, and it's enough to make strike it off my list. If I can't find something I want to drink, at a price I'd be prepared to pay, then they've not tried very hard. For this reason I'd make a couple of recommendations at the lower end of the spectrum, because I see no value in 'upsizing' as it were. whites: 2001 Gruner Veltliner Hardegg £32 spicy, full wine, with some sweetness and an earthy edge that matches truffle very well. not miles dissimilar to a fatter spicier riesling. good acidity. 2002 Mt Horrocks Watervale Riesling £32 full aromatic new world style, cleansing acidity, underneath pungent lime flavours. If you like oz riesling, this has weight, and is still finely balanced. Red: 2001 Perregrine Central Otago Pinot Noir £39 a nice mid weight kiwi pinot. strawberry & cherry scented perfume, not an overly complex style, but it has some roundness in the mid palate, with further black cherry and cinnamon. 2000 St Nicholas de Bourgueil fondis £28 not familiar with producer, but style should suit. Mid weight cabernet franc wine, usually a little leathery, meaty, chewy style. can expect good bright acidity, and enough flavour to complement meat & cheese courses. don't know if that helps, but if it does - great.

sure, what sort of thing/style do you normally like?

I'm afraid I disagree but a discussion on the topic is probably off-topic for egullet. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ Ian, why am I not surprised. which part do you disagree with?