blackp
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With regard to which torch to get I agree with Nathan's suggestion. I have been using a Bernzomatic propane torch to great effect.
The important thing is to get the outside of the meat very hot very quickly without taking so long that you start to heat up and therefore cook the interior. Obviously the hotter and bigger the flame the quicker you can sear the outside.
I may be one of those who cannot discern the taste of propane, but needless to say none of my dinner guests (and there have been many) have observed any taint. I have yet to try MAPP gas, but when I need a new bottle I'll give it a go.
Regards,
Peter.
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I also agree with e_monster's recommendations.
Just one additional piece of information:
The rough "rule" about food safety (see Douglas' guide) is that if you cook anything below 55C or 131F (or is it 130F / 54.4C - but you get my drift) you should not exceed 4 hours.
Given I like my steak on the rare side of medium rare I mostly cook it at 52C / 125.6F so I never exceed 4 hours.
Mostly I use Douglas' tables to ensure I get the centre of the steak up to temp, but so long as I cook for at least that time and do not exceed 4 hours all will be well from a food safety perspective.
The net of this is that I have never had a steak which didn't turn out fantastic.
If on the other hand you are cooking something really tough like short ribs set your temp at 55C or higher and cook for days if you wish. I recently fed some sceptics 48hour beef ribs (meat off bone) cooked at 55C. They were amazed at the excellent taste and texture and appearance.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Pedro,
I have cooked chicken breasts @55C and the result was very good. I was cooking some beef ribs @55C for 48 hours (deliberately low to maximise the "rare" appearance) for a presentation a couple of weeks ago and decided at the (relative) last minute to give the audience a sample of chicken breast as well. I had a couple of fresh free range breasts in the fridge which were to be that night's dinner. I bagged them with a sprinkle of white truffle salt and white pepper using my normal SV pressure (97%) in my chamber machine.
I cannot be sure of the exact vacuum which is pulled at that setting, but I find it is sufficient to extract enough air so that the bags easily sink. Interestingly freezing using that vacuum level tends to allow ice crystals to form in time whereas holding 99% for a few seconds does not. (Note that my machine only has a 2 digit readout so 99% really equals the maximum it can pull. Once you pull 99% you get an option to hold that pressure for a programmed number of seconds whereas at lower pressures there is no hold option).
I found a digital pressure gauge which would let me know the exact vacuum pulled but at >$700 I can't quite see getting value from it.
Anyhow I cooked the breasts for about 4.5 hours. The texture was a little softer than chicken from the same source cooked @58C for 2 hours, but it was still "al-dente" and not at all mushy. As for colour it was slightly pinker than the 58C breast, but it was not at all undercooked.
The neophyte tasters all thought it was brilliant!
Cheers,
Peter.
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OK - I get it!
First rule: Before expressing an opinion one should consult ones available references: page 168 of Heston's "In Search of Perfection" explains the goal admirably.
After reading the recipe I'm more worried about my ability to actually perform the task than any food safety issues which may be involved.
Most ovens found in a domestic situation may not even be able to hold 50C let alone be able to actually do it within 5C (given no PID control most domestic ovens have a wide oscillation around the set point).
My oven will hold 55C within 5C and I consider that pretty good for a semi-professional oven.
Maybe with a Rational oven or similar this recipe could be done with some precision, but for the home chef Sous Vide is an economical way to get to the intent of some of the master chefs without massive investment.
I can't help thinking (no proof of course) that SV steak then pan fried or quickly roasted very hot would not be equal to Heston's recipe. Because I do not have an oven which will hold a constant 50C - I'll never know.
Cheers,
Peter.
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I can't see exactly what you are trying to achieve.
It is easily possible to keep well within the food safety guidelines AND have excellent Sous Vide results.
The rough rule of thumb I use is for tender meats cook at the temp which gives you the level of doneness you like. For me this is 53C (127F) which gives rare-to-medium-rare on my scale.
For any SV cookery times should be kept to below 4 hours where temps are below 54.5C (130F). This is not a problem as already tender steak is fantastic with only an hour or 2 at the doneness temp you select.
For tough meats on the other hand - pick any temperature you like and so long as it is 54.5C (130F) or over cook for as long as you like.
I really like the meat on beef short ribs and generally cook them at 56C (133F) for 48 hours. The meat is still pink, juicy and flavourful - but most of all tender and succulent like rib-eye.
Cheers,
Peter.
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This document by the entertaining Dave and Nils from the French Culinary Institute promises to be a great reference for SV enthusiasts.
Part 1 was published today.
http://cookingissues.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/sous-vide-and-low-temp-primer-part-i/
Enjoy
Peter.
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This is exactly the behaviour that the PID controller allows you to tune for your specific environment. Increasing the P value will help reduce overshoot by slowing the heating more as the set temperature is approached. This is often enough, but in some cases it can slow the response time down too much. In general the better insulated the pot is the slower it recovers from overshoot. It is increasingly difficult to stabilise a pot the better the insulation is. In a completely uninsulated pot (like a stock pot with an immersion circulator) tuning the PID is fairly simple as any overshoot is neutralised fairly quickly by the normal heat loss.
Increasing the I value can also help to reduce overshoot. In general it is better to start experimenting with a high I value and to slowly reduce it until oscillation is detected - then increase to the point of stability.
While there are differences in the way PID controllers are implemented, the general theories apply. The Auber 1500 A/B/C models will behave in the same way as the FMS models, but as far as I am aware the 1500D is unique to FMS.
The temperature spike after adding cold food to the tank can be explained by a too small D value. Assuming that you have achieved stability using P and I, for normal ramp up and hold operation if you get overshoot after adding cold food try increasing the D value to make it's action weaker.
All this is explained in our guide.
Hope this is helpful,
Cheers,
Peter.
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For the torch, I haven't tried that yet but am afraid as well that you can taste the gas. I used a small creme brulee torch once, that was fine but that thing is way to small to sear a steak quickly.
I have seen quite a few comments about the virtues of Butane over Propane in these pages. Some say that Propane leaves a taste whereas Butane does not. I have both kinds of torch and I've not been able to taste any off flavour from the fuel from either.
One of my Christmas presents was Thomas Keller's Ad Hoc at Home. Interestingly while there are many slow cooked recipes in this book there are none cooked sous vide.
There is one recipe called "Blowtorch Prime Rib Roast" (page 56). In the introduction to the recipe Keller says:
"Propane torches are inexpensive and easy to use. Available at most hardware stores, they usually cost less than $20; replacement cylinders are usually less than $5. Avoid the smaller butane-fired torches sold at gourmet shops; propane torches are more effective."
It is interesting that one of the major proponents of sous vide comes out in favour of propane.
FWIW I use a heavy Le Crueset cast iron pan when the shape of the cooked food allows (like a steak) and the propane torch for irregular shaped items like beef ribs on the bone or chicken legs where getting the food to touch the surface of the pan is not possible.
Peter.
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I must agree.
During the time I was trying to validate my purchase of a rice cooker and a Sous Vide Magic I did many temperature experiments using rice cookers ranging from 3.5 litres to 12 litres controlled by the SVM.
Using a wire rig to hold my temp probe in a fixed position and then repeating the test with the sensor in different positions I could not detect more than 0.5C variance at different places in the tank. I suspect that the reason for this is the fact that rice cookers generally have their heating elements below the tank coupled with the fact that they are cylindrical in shape gives them the best chance to allow natural convection to work well.
One thing I have noticed is that a perforated false floor about an inch above the real bottom of the tank helps the natural convection.
I cannot understand why any home sous vide cook would not use a relatively cheap rice cooker and a Sous Vide Magic. The cost is far less than any alternative I have found so far and the results are excellent.
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The dishes we cooked and their location in the book were:
Fried Chicken & Squid Rice Noodles (Page 298).
Prawns with Glass Noodles (Page 294).
Siamese Watercress Stir-fried with Shrimp Paste (Page 258).
Hot and Sour Soup of Snapper with Oyster Mushrooms (Page 274 - although the recipe in the book uses prawns instead of Snapper).
Fried Rice with Crab (Page 134).
I guess that's 5 not 4 - I never could count ;-)
While I enjoyed all of the dishes my favourite and the one most likely to be repeated at home was the Prawns with Glass Noodles. It is a fairly simple dish to make and was absolutely delicious.
The only dish I probably wouldn't make was the fried rice. It was OK, but not at all special.
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I think that the naysayers are missing the point of this book.
I've just come home from an all day cooking course with David Thompson in which the 4 recipes he prepared (and later we prepared and enjoyed) were all from his new book. He opened the session by saying that those of us who've done his courses before will find that the approach of today would have been heresy by his former principles and that he has found that while there is still an important place for classical Thai cookery there is also a place for Thai street food - a part of the food culture he had shunned for many years. He said that he and his partner spend around 4 months of the year in Thailand and they almost never cook. They nearly always eat on the street.
He gave a good explanation of why much of the street food is not traditional Thai, and that is because Thai food is designed to be eaten in company and street food is generally made for one person - something which never happens with traditional foods.
The net of all this is that the new book is a great compliment to his original. There is no overlap and there are many interesting things to cook. Not all of them completely ethnically Thai, but all of them reminiscent of eating in Thailand.
While "Thai Food" is THE reference - I expect to cook many more recipes from the new book simply because they are more approachable and able to be interpreted and adapted to the ingredients you have on hand. In chatting with David after the class he emphasised this point. He said you can change the recipes around to make them your own and that doesn't make them wrong.
Have a look at the book. It is big, heavy and expensive, but I think it's a winner.
Peter.
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It's a bit of a shame that the first article on Sous Vide I've seen in my home town is probably more misleading than informative.
The idea that meat becomes tender because the vacuum in the bag lowers the boiling point is just nonsense, and the suggestion that brisket can be cooked for 18 hours at 65C and still be medium-rare is a bit off by my standards. (No wish to re-open the doneness vs temperature debate ;-))
The idea of infusing strawberries with strawberry juice is interesting though!
I've written to the editor of the Good Living section of the SMH and I have received a response that they've forwarded my mail on to Catharine Munro the writer of the article. If I get any meaningful response I'll post it here.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Getting my hands on some Activa to experiment with has been an experience so far.
I requested some samples on the USA web site and received a confirmation that they would be sent.
Next I received an email from Ajinomoto in Japan saying that because they only market one of the types of Activa (TG-B) in Australia that they would only send a sample of that. Fine with me - I don't understand the difference properly anyhow.
Yesterday I had a call from DHL saying that the Australian Quarantine Service (AQIS) has impounded a parcel sent from Japan addressed to me.
It turns out that the paperwork accompanying the parcel just says it's contents are "Enzyme Preparation" with no further explanation.
I contacted Ajinomoto's Australian distributor who very kindly provided me with their specification of the Activa so that I can explain to AQIS what is in the parcel. We'll see how that goes.
They also sent me a PDF of a brochure which describes the use of Activa in some detail and has some interesting information about it's reaction times and the relationship of temperature to those times.
Now if I could only figure out how to post a PDF on this forum I'd be happy to share it!
Cheers,
Peter.
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FWIW I too agree with e-monster. I find that in order to get anything cooked SV which resembles rare steak cooked conventionally I cannot exceed a core temperature of 48C/49C. At 54C any beef I've cooked is what I would call medium - i.e. uniformly pink throughout with no red/raw appearance at all. Cooking at any temp higher than 54C the beef starts to lose it's pinkness and becomes increasingly grey as the temperature is increased. For me any "greyness" at all starts to get into what I describe as well done.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Looks delicious. I need an Australian translation though. Tri-tip I can figure out, BBQ sauce in many variants are available, as is liquid smoke but I have no reference point for the Chaka's Mmmmm sauce. What is it and what do you think is in it?
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The piece I cooked was just over 500g about 100mm in diameter and 140mm long. It was an experiment to try out the recipe. Next weekend I'm going to do a whole pork neck (about 1.5kg, 100mm in diameter and roughly 400mm long) for a dinner party now that I know that it works.
All I would do differently is to increase the amount of marinade ingredients proportionately.
cheers,
PB
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Pork Neck Recipe
I have made Macella Hazan's "Drunken Roast Pork" (from "The Essentials of Classic Italian Cookery") many times and it is a very good recipe. Essentially it is pork neck larded with strips of carrot and pot roasted with aromatics in red wine after browning.
Tonight we had the Alcoholics Anonymous (ie no wine) Sous Vide version and the outcome was outstanding - better than the original!
As was my practice for the original recipe I tied the pork neck at about 30mm intervals to keep it round and I then larded the neck with strips of carrot about 1/4 inch or 5mm square (not all were square - some were triangular....)
I made some "Prickly Ash" which is equal quantities (by volume) of Szechwan Pepper and Sea Salt roasted in a dry pan until it is well toasted but not burned and the salt has taken on a golden colour. It is then cooled and ground to a powder in a mortar.
I dusted the larded pork with the prickly ash. I used about a teaspoon of the ground powder for a 500g (1lb) piece of pork.
Then I made a mixture of a little over a tablespoon of Hoi Sin Sauce, a little less of Soy Sauce and the juice of 1/4 of a white onion - bashed up in a mortar and pestle then I squeezed the liquid out using a piece of muslin.
I added a small knob of young ginger (about 15mm x 25mm) peeled and sliced finely.
I turned the pork in this mixture to coat the whole surface then I bagged the pork and added all the marinade to the bag.
Vacuum & seal.
Into the bath @ 60C for 24 hours.
I then drained the juice from the bag to a small pot and put it on the stove. When it came to the boil I strained the protein gunk from the jus and returned the jus to the heat to reduce to about half. I had been thinking of adding some Madeira to the jus, but after tasting it I was afraid of over gilding the lily!
While all this was happening I nuked the outside of the pork with the blowtorch (sides only, not the cut edges) and held it in the oven while the jus was reducing.
I served it with some steamed new potatoes, green beans and zucchini.
The meat was very flavourful, tender and the carrot while cooked still had a little crispness to it. Excellent!
This recipe is in the "MUST DO AGAIN" category - as voted by "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (SWMBO).
According to SWMBO this is my best SV experiment since starting on this mad adventure....
Funny that the rice cooker is now not taking up valuable space....
PB
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New Article for SV Newbies
I've written an article as an introduction to SV. It has been published on a friends Australian web site.
I thought that some eGullet members might find it useful. A lot of the information came from this forum.
The link to the article is:
Sous Vide @ Home article on Australian Gourmet Pages
Cheers,
Peter.
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Just added Big Fat Duck to the collection - should count for more than one book either by volume, weight or price. New total = 739.
Cheers,
PB
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Sodium alginate doest not dissolve to methanol, ethanol, acetone and chloroform; dissolve to sodium hydroxide liquid and water; monatomic base alkali salt, such as soduim salt and sylvite, as well as ammonium salt, magnesium salts and mercury salt all dissolve to water and become into thick liquid. Multivalent metal salt of algin does not dissolve to water, except magnesium salts and mercury salt.
Yikes! should we eat it???
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OK, I am back home, so please find the reference:
Sous-Vide: Garen Im Vakuum
Viktor Stampfer
2009 Matthaes Verlag GmbH, Stuttgart
ISBN-10: 3875150279
ISBN-13: 978-3875150278
"The correct temperature for cooking sous-vide"
Chapter by Bruno Goussault pp.14-15
Noteworthy, the author cites microbiological studies performed at CREA.
Hi Mike - I have the Stampfer book and have just read the pages you cite. If one keeps reading to page 17 the following information is recorded:
"Conclusion
...............all vegetative forms of pathogenic bacteria are destroyed by thermal treatment, when the last phase of heat application is at around 56C and a core temperature of 54C has been achieved. After cooking at these temperatures, only the spores in products that have to be cooled rapidly after cooking and then stored at between 0C and 4C in order to avoid germination and further development........"
The author concludes by stating:
"There is a good deal of research to be done in order to progress beyond our present position of merely acknowledging and measuring the phenomena to the point where we will fully understand both the technical and scientific details. We will continue to study the subject."
This sounds far from conclusive, and is consistent with the advice from Douglas Baldwin and Nathan Myhrvold. Mr Goussault also discussed the lack of knowledge about the bacteriostatic and bactericidal properties of many flavour and aroma enhancers. This subject hasn't even been discussed here as far as I can see.
About the only thing I'm sure of is that there is more work to be done before we fully understand this interesting cooking technique.
Regards,
Peter.
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Hehe!
My advancing years are enough for me not to remember what I put in the freezer a few weeks ago, let alone several years before.
One thing I've adopted as a great adjunct to freezer storage (after the vacuum packaging machine) is a Brother QL570 label printer (You need a PC or Mac as it is a USB connected printer and not a stand alone device). The best media to use is the continuous 62mm wide tape which will cut off at the length you need.
When I freeze anything it is easy to make labels to accurately describe what is in the bag. I usually put on the label what the content is, where I bought it, the date I packed it and if I added anything else to the bag - what that was.
I find that the labels do not deteriorate in the freezer, and after cooking some Salmon portions in the Tiger/SVM contraption the other day I found that the labels did not deteriorate in the 50C water either.
The big advantage is that when you cut up a big piece of meat like a whole rump or scotch fillet (go figure what the US equivalents are) it is no problem to create the 10 or 20 labels you need. We all know if we are required to write them out we will leave a lot of detail out as the time taken to fully describe each package is longer than we want to spend.
As a result my freezer has well labelled packages in it with all the info necessary to decide what to do with the pack next.
Now I'm using SV more often - I will pack some main protein items with flavourings before I freeze them - so the ability to make more verbose labels easily becomes more important.
Hope this is useful to some.
Peter.
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Thanks for the input Douglas (And Rob).
Given that the bags were still sealed (ie from raw to cooked), and that I chilled them prior to freezing I guess they should be pretty safe.
Not being a mathematician I'm having some difficulty in understanding the info in the Safety section of your guide.
There is a sliding scale ranging from 2.5C to 7C with a corresponding time line of up to 90 days to less than 5 days.
How should I interpret this information given my freezer is -20C? Will any of the spores still be "alive" at temperatures so low?
Thanks,
Peter.
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Bob, I read Thomas Keller's advice you referred to just now.
The ribs I cooked for dinner last night were too much for 2 people so given I'd bagged them into small parcels I took those I was not going to serve and immediately plunged them into an ice bath. After about 15 minutes in there I dried the bags off and put them in the freezer.
If the advice referred to above is correct I should throw them out!
I remember reading something in this forum about botulism (I think written by Nathan) and the fact that the spores are not killed at SV temperatures and indeed thrive in the anaerobic atmosphere. I couldn't find again it just now.
What do folk think of the safety issue of chilling then freezing meat that was cooked at 56C for 48 hours? I'm sure that MikeTMD will tell me not to eat them, but I would appreciate a wider opinion.
Thanks,
Peter.
Sous Vide Supreme and other home options: 2009-10
in Kitchen Consumer
Posted