mickblueeyes

Thanks!

Bvus, for everyday drinking try W.L. Weller 7 summers old, you'll like it better than makers.

Drinkboy, I think I love you.

This is going to be fantastic! I read about this a couple of years ago and, frankly, think that the S. Africans are doing the liquor world a great service. Hopefully, some arrangement can be made to ship raw agave to Mexico instead of making 'tequila" there, but time will tell!

Man, you guys are hard-headed and wrong. Jaz, it is therozied that Russians and Poles began extremely crude distillation in the 12th century. By the latter 15th century, they were in full production. By the way, any unaged spirit, watered to proof, spirit is vodka. And in a greater sense, prior to aging, every spirit that has come fresh from a still is vodka, whether it is cognac, bourbon, brandy, or tequila. If any of the spirits of the world were bottled unaged, they would be classified as vodka, regardless of mashbill. slkinsey, 1. I am glad you feel you can speak for all Europeans. Try Norway and Sweeden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovaka, Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia, Italy, Georgia, Armenia, Iceland, Romania, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Moldoavia, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Lithuania, Albania, Bulgaria--all of whom produce great quantities of vodka. So I guess you have only been to England (produces no less than 45 vodkas), Spain (only 1 imported to the US), Portugal (only 1 imported into the US), Scotland (1), Ireland (3), France (7), Germany (10), Austria (1), Denmark (4), and Greece (1) or else you have no clue what you are talking about. As I said, most of Europe drinks vodka straight. 2. Straw arguments? Yours is the straw argument. Ask any vodka enthusiast how to drink vodka and most will tell you straight from the freezer or -1 degree celsius. However, you will find that in Eastern Europe and Nordic countries, they often drink very high quality vodkas at room temperature, as do I. Just because a majority of Americans drink bourbon with coke, doesn't mean I should to taste it. They are doing it incorrectly, not I. Just because a majority of individuals in the US are unaware of vodka's pristine state at room temperature, doesn't mean I have to be. You are the one drinking/tasting incorrectly, not I. 3. I do assert that higher quality NON-US vodkas are stronger in flavor with much more complexity. If you cannot agree to that, then you don't even know enough about vodka for me to waste my time. I suggest the following books for you to read before you try and argue a point you know nothing about: The Vodka Companion, Desmond Beggs; Classic Vodka, Nicholas Faith and Ian Wisniewski; Vodkas of the World, Gilbert Delos. When you have read these books and tasted well over 100 vodkas, come back and talk to me. However, I will be a nice guy and explain this to you. Vodka produced in the US puts a high concentration on purity, hence the legal restriction requiring it to be distilled to 190 proof (which would leave roughly 30 milligrams per liter congeners--still enough for the human chemoreceptors to detect). This is often considered high-quality vodka, but it is not. People in the US regard vodka for its "smoothness", which is in essence for its flavorlessness. This is not the case elsewhere in the world. Every other country in the world has the choice of what proof to distill to; most choosing to distill between 110-160 proof. This means a probable 2-3 distillations. Most vodkas produced in the US are overdistilled and lose flavor. Vodkas produced everywhere else in the world contain as much as 2500 milligrams per liter of congeners--a vast difference. Stolichnaya, which is the number one selling vodka in the world, but certainly not in the US, is only double distilled wheat, which means it has a great deal of congeners left in the spirit and it has a good range of flavor. This is NOTHING like US vodkas. The less distillation, the more flavor, get it? Vodkas produced in the US have to be OVERDISTILLED BY LAW. Hence, premium vodka is not made in the US. Premium vodkas are not meant to be distilled 6-50 times, anything that claims it is premium and is distilled more than 5 times is a marketing scam. You compare Stoli to Glacier and you will get the vast difference you are looking for. I guarantee that a gas chromatograph or even photometry will show a vast difference. 2500 mg vs. 30 mg, um, yeah, there's no difference at all. To address you grappa vs. vodka statement: I know of no vodka produced solely from the must. Grappa, however, is, which gives it the sticky, stemy, brambley taste. Vodkas produced from grapes are usually a product of wine. Your statement regarding vodka is very incorrect however. I am going to try to explain this to you one more time: THERE ARE NO INTERNATIONAL RULES FOR THE PRODUCTION OF VODKA. They only exist in the US. Why can't you understand that--I have said it no less than 10 times on this thread. Vodka can be distilled one time or 50 times, filtered through dog dung and aged in tupperware. It can be flavored with anything and everything. Your insistence on making up information about vodka is baffling. You clearly need to do more research on the subject before you debate. To address your "flavored vodka" argument. Flavored vodka is a traditional method of manufacture. However, most flavored vodkas are marketing to the US. Flavored vodka originated from the crude distillation methods of the 12th century which left mostly congeners and evaporated a great deal of the EtOH. Hence, the distillate was flavored to cover up negative taste. It became traditional. Also, many herbel medical remedies were mixed with vodka to enhance the potency. Most Eastern Europeans still to this day consider black pepper and a shot of vodka to be a good remedy for an ailing stomach. Oh, and just so you know, Starka is produced in Poland, so the US laws don't apply to it (once again). To address your final, very poor, argument. Let me explain this to you once again slowly. There is vodka made from 100% peat-malted barley, double distilled in pot stills. It is unaged. Do you know what it tastes like? Unaged scotch. There is corn based vodka with wheat and barley added, triple or quadruple distilled. Do you know what it tastes like? Unaged bourbon. There is 100% grape based vodka using Ugni Blanc, Colombard and Folle Blanche. Do you know what it tastes like? Unaged cognac. There is 100% sugar cane and 100% molasses vodka. Do you know what it tastes like? Unaged rum. Your argument is ridiculous. These spirits benefit from the wood, but the majority of the flavor comes from grains, water and distillation. That is the point. You drink aged vodka every day. That is vodka's versitility. It can be made from anything, using any method of distillation. If you can't see that, you are a lost cause. Fat guy: Regarding the Polish definition, it is far too broad. Let's use this definition: Vodka is the distillate of anything, typically, though not always, unaged and potentially flavored with any substance. That is the industry definition. For our purposes though, let's use the definition of "If it says vodka on the bottle, it's vodka". The Polish definition you are using is a common definition though, not an official one. Like Southerners calling every Carbonated beverage "Coke" or Midwesterners calling them "Pop", just FYI. You still haven't clarified your argument regarding the European vodkas, so I will have to guess what you mean again. I am guessing that you mean that European vodka is flavorless and you believe I am arguing that the microdistilleries have much to offer. You are incorrect. Most European vodka that makes it to the US is very flavorless, why? Because that is what appeals to the US palate. Grey Goose, for example, is a poor excuse for vodka. However, Volganaya is a wonder, full-flavored vodka that can be had at $10 a pop. What I am trying to say to you is this: don't believe the hype and marketing. To you and all: What you have to realize is that the American palate is terrible. We drink box wine and Arbor Mist. The top selling vodkas in the US are Smirnoff, Popov and Burnetts. The top selling whiskies are Crown Royal and Jack Daniels. The top selling rum is Bacardi. The top selling premium tequila is Patron. We are being marketed to on a daily basis. Do you realize how much money is spent on liquor advertising in the US every year? Billions. The liquor industry is the most powerful industry in America behind the porn industry and the Oil industry. You are told that X is a premium product and believe that it is, while the fact remains that it is not. Canadians scoff at Crown, Mexicans scoff at Patron, Russians scoff at american produced smirnoff and burnetts and popov--we are dupes. We have been lead to believe that Grey goose, Absolut and Skyy are cream of the crop, when in fact they are not. Beans, you have been lead to believe that Glacier Teton is the way vodka is supposed to taste, when in fact, it is not. Everywhere else in the world, vodka is judged by its taste and flavor. Only in the West is it judged by smoothness and mixability. Believe me or not, that is your choice, but I encourage you all to try and find the out-of-print books I mentioned to slkinsey. Unfortunately, you are all very uneducated with regard to Vodka. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it is the truth. Do some research and stop parroting the same thing everyone else does or what you heard from your liquor reps (who never know anything) or the clerk at your local shop. If you spend some time reading and tasting, you will find that not only every expert in the field agrees with me, but that I am indeed right.

[knuckles cracked] Alright, you guys didn't pay much attention to my post. Lets start this from the beginning. 1. Distillation is the purification of a substance through evaporation and condensation. Specifically, for consumable alcohol, we are dealing with Ethanol (EtOH). When any starch/sugar bearing substance is fermented into beer and distilled, it produces EtOH and Congeners, which include acetyl aldehydes, esters and fusel oils. While esters and acetyl aldehydes actually lend pleasant flavor to distillate, fusel oils lend a negative taste. It is still important, however, to minimize both components in the distillation process, so they don't overpower the flavors of the grain and to create balance. All spirits are created through distillation. 2. The Still. There are two types of stills utilized in distillation: pot and continuous. The pot still is shaped somewhat like a Hershey kiss, while the continuous still (also called column) is a tall column. A simple pot still is only capable of distilling to about 70% abv, but by adding two retorts, a pot still can go as high as 85% abv. A column still is much more efficient and is capable of purifying EtOH to the highest possible level of about 96%. The addition of organic acids can allow for further distillation, but it renders the alcohol unconsumable. 3. The sugar source. There are hundreds of sugar sources used in distillation, but several comprise the majority of distillation: Molasses, sugar cane juice, sugar cane syrup, malted barley, rye, corn, maize, wheat, every variety of grape, agave, potatoes, beets, and just about any type of fruit. The sugar source is combined with yeast and water and allowed to ferment. Sacharomyces cervisiae is typically the species utilized and the sub-special proprietary strains are closely guarded. Fermentation is an anaerobic activitiy and produces CO2 (carbon dioxide) and EtOH, our desired product. This "beer" will be distilled to extract the EtOH. Now that the basics are out of the way, we can begin discussion of the topic at hand. All spirits start with a mash of some sort, whether it is rum or vodka. This mash is composed of the grains/fruits/sugar source used to create said spirit. The grains in the mash determine the flavor of the spirit. If I distill 80% corn, 10% malted barley and 10% rye in a pot still to 70% abv and taste the "white dog" or "new make spirit" fresh from the still, it will have loads of flavor. Often sweet corn, bananas, butterscotch and malt come through on the palate (when tasting "white dog" made from that mashbill--I know, I have tasted several batches fresh from the still). If that spirit is watered down to proof and placed in newly charred oak barrels it becomes bourbon. If it is watered down to proof and placed in a bottle, it is vodka. Master distillers taste whiskey off the still to ascertain its flavor, with vodka, you are given that opportunity. However, that isn't true of US made vodkas. This brings up an important point regarding the production of vodka. In the US, vodka must be distilled to 190 proof, which by definition of alcohol distillation, means that it will be as close to pure as it can get. Hence, the flavor components (congeners) will be almost completely removed. Vodka in the US, by law, must be tasteless and odorless. When distillation reaches its limit, the sugar source will have very little impact on the flavor, if any at all. A potato vodka distilled to 96% abv will taste very similar to wheat distilled to 96% abv. There will be a nuance of difference, but it will fade, as all you are tasting is EtOH. However, vodkas made elsewhere in the world don't have to follow US regulations. Stolichnaya (the number one selling vodka in the world--60,000,000+ cases) is double distilled wheat. This means that it probably leaves the still at 80% abv. There is plenty of flavor left in that spirit. It is not odorless or tasteless. To answer slkinsey's questions: 1. I assure you, you are incorrect if you think the "mixed drink" is as popular in the rest of the world as it is in the US. Most countries in the world distill and most drink their local beverages. In Scotland, they drink Scotch, in the Phillipines they drink Tanduay rum, in Brazil they drink Cachaca, in Peru Pisco, in Greece Ouzo, in Italy Sambuca, Amaro and anisette. Yes there is lots of crossover, but I assure you, most of Europe and Asia drink vodka straight. 2. So I guess we should all drink bourbon with coke in it to ascertain its true flavor? Or gin with tonic in it? Or tequila with margarita mix in it? Or any other ludicrous statement? An absolutely absurd argument. 3. The goal of vodka distilling IS NOT to make the spirit as odorless and tasteless as possible!!!! I dare you to say those words to ANY non-US distiller. The vodka distillers of the world take great pride in making their vodka as flavorful as possible. And NO we cannot all agree that premium vodkas have less taste and odor than lower grade vodkas. IN FACT, the very opposite is true. Premium vodkas have ten times the flavor that gut-rot vodkas do. Most cheap vodka available in the US is made in the US so it has to be flavorless and odorless. Most top shelf vodkas are made outside the US so they don't have to follow asinine congressional regulation. 4. No, we cannot agree that there is far less difference between premium vodkas and any other liquor. To assert so, is ridiculous. The flavor wheel for rum, cognac, tequila, bourbon, gin, armagnac, brandy, etc is pretty simple and occupy a simple range of flavors. However, with Scotch (due to water source and environmental differences) and vodka (due to plethora of options for mash) the flavor wheel is all over the place. Just because you don't know how to appreciate vodka, don't slam those who know how. Your assertions are weak and unjustifiable with fact. To Fat Guy: Real drinking conditions vary. Many Eastern European countries drink vodka warm, but only if it is good vodka. I personally enjoy warm vodka, as do many connoisseurs that have any knowledge of the subject. With instruction, you could learn to distinguish pot stilled from column stilled, corn mash from wheat mash, or any mixture thereof. Any master distiller will tell you that that is a great skill. No, you won't use it frequently, but it is a great skill none the less. I assist in and put on professional tastings, so it is important for me. Heavily advertised vodka is a poor excuse for vodka. Grey goose--mediocre. Absolut--terrible. Skyy--mediocre. You don't see top shelf imported vodkas advertised much. There is a reason for that--they sell based on taste. And vodka distillers do differentiate based on ingredients and water source. That is the most important thing in vodka: ingredients, ingredients, ingredients. It is naked spirit and it is easy to taste imperfection. We don't take our cues from Europe, we take them from creators of industrial alcohol. I am not sure of the connection you are trying to draw here, but I think you are trying to say that US vodkas are just like European vodkas?? If so, you could not be any more incorrect. European distillers are some of the best in the world and have been distilling for hundreds of years longer than many other countries. Our vodka is made in an industrial process, theirs is handcrafted. A.J. Liebling may subscribe to his Freudian idiocies all he wants, but I assure you, as I have several Eastern European customers, that there is nothing further from the truth. That may be the case in the US, but nowhere else. You need to do some serious studying regarding vodka before you have the minerals to call it a drug. Your argument was at least engaging to that point, but you showed your true bias there. You, like everyone else on this thread, wish to view vodka as an insignificant spirit when, in fact, it is the forerunner to most every spirit on the planet. It is the lack of education in this country that causes people to buy vodka because it is on sale and then proclaim with their proletariat voices that there is nothing better and to spend more is to waste money. Once again, the American populace shows its lack of education in the liquor arena.

Prepare to be shocked then, because we can. Vodka's point is not to be tasteless and odorless and those regulations only apply to vodka PRODUCED in the US. To the American palate, vodka is supposed to be tasteless and used in mixers, but I assure you that everywhere else in the world that is not the case. Vodka should be tasted both at room temperature to grasp the true viscosity and aromatics of the spirit and then directly from the freezer to get a feel for the body and finish. This commonly perpetuated myth that vodka has no flavor and is colorless, is not only false, but absurd. If the point of vodka is to create tasteless spirit, then all vodkas would be distilled to neutrality (about 96% abv) and if that were the case, there would only be need for one vodka. However, I am sure the 1000+ distillers in Poland alone would disagree with you.

I personally like the Serpis Red! Really nice herbal and anis flavor with a superb louche.

Drinkboy, I don't know how we missed this in our discussions, but we are both numbskulls! The law which you are in reference to regards the production of vodka in the US, not the importation. So, this certainly would apply to every vodka I have seen made in the US, which attests to the poor quality of US made vodka (with few exceptions, most notably, Tito's). This is also the reason to purchase imported vodka, which doesn't fall under these regulations. Distillation at that proof causes a loss of all the good flavor along with the bad, which is why industrial, column-distilled vodkas taste. . . industrial. Examples of mediocre to horrid US vodkas include Tvarski, Skyy, some Smirnoff, Burnetts, Barton, Popov, Kamchatka, Gilbey's, Gordon's, and a few others. Clearly, these are industrial alcohol that water has been added to. One final note to add to the list of sub-par US vodkas: Teton Glacier. Though touted by beans on another thread to be a fine American product, this product is a disgrace. First, the brand makes the outlandish claim that 99% of vodkas are grain distillates and that only 2 other potato vodkas are distributed in the US--two outright lies. The true numbers are probably closer to 85-90% grain distillates and there are many potato vodkas distributed in the US: Zubrowka, Chopin, Luksusowa, Mor and many others. Glacier claims its vodka is distilled greater than 50 times on a column still. This is bragging??? That is like bragging to a guy driving a Ferrari that you drive a Pinto. In fact, on Silver Creek distilling's webpage, they sell industrial ethanols!! Anyone who buys Teton Glacier has fallen victim to a great ploy and the greatest myth: that the quality of a vodka depends on how tasteless or odorless it can be. Teton is a watery, flavorless sad reflection of US vodka producers, just like all the other industrial vodkas.

Drinkboy I will send you a message with a site to help you out. As far as good vodka goes, there are lots: Belvedere, Chopin, Mor, Kremylovskaya, Krolewska, Stolichnaya (#1 selling in the world), Stoli Gold, Cristall, Hangar One (Best Flavoreds, IMHO), Zubrowka, Jewel of Russia, Tanqueray Sterling, Rain, Vox, Ultimat, etc., etc. There are about 200 importers of vodka into the U.S. with 600+ brands. Some of the cheaper, but very good brands include: Svedka, Volganaya, Tito's, Luksusowa, Denaka, Finlandia, etc, etc. The problem with some top shelf brands like Absolut is the method of manufacture. Absolut distills to the maximum of 98.6% abv (highest you can go without the addition of organic acids) and then adds rectified spirits (poorly distilled) for so that the spirit has flavor. Contrarily, Stoli is double distilled wheat, which allows for the presence of a great deal of pleasant congeners like acetyl aldehydes, diacetyl and esters (head of distillation), which add pleasant flavor and a robust body while eliminating fusel oils (tail end of distillation) which contribute the nasty taste. Good vodka takes advantage of the delicate balance between purity of spirit and flavor, whereas great vodka maximizes the balance. I challenge anyone who doesn't think much of vodka to take a fresh hit of "white dog" off of a pot-still and then tell me it has no flavor. Master distillers of bourbon and scotch do taste some whisky from the barrels as it ages, but they taste EVERY batch that comes off the still. That's how they determine quality and flavor. The taste of vodka comes from the grains and you can find every mashbill in the world in vodka. It ranges from 100% beets to 100% malted barley and beyond. They use corn, beets, wheat, rye, potato, barley, grapes and every mixture of those to create each vodka's unique taste. Some are better than others. But individuals who haven't acquired a taste for vodka are like people who have had Maker's and Jack Daniel's and say they don't like bourbon. Or those who drink Dewars and Johnny Walker and say they don't like Scotch. If all you have tasted is a few of the big brands, you don't know what you are missing. I deal with this phenomenon every day in the liquor business. People are generally uneducated when it comes to liquor and often think they know what they are talking about. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that Crown is the best Canadian whisky, or that Jack is the best Bourbon, or that Hennessey is the best Cognac. People truly don't know. Creating good vodka is much more difficult than creating good bourbon or scotch because you can taste mistakes. Wood has the uncanny ability to cover up some mistakes (not all), but with vodka, you are tasting naked spirit, unaltered with spirit caramel, wood, or any flavoring agents. This is a whisky nerd's dream (i.e. my dream ). So give vodka another try.

Thanks!

Yes, I should clear up the question. I am looking for the cuisine of either the Cognac region of France or the Armagnac region of France.

I am feeling a little out of place in this forum, as I usually stick to the Beverages forum, but here goes. . . I am hosting a Cognac and Armagnac tasting at a local club and would like some imput as to the cuisine that should be offered. I am considering two options: a one course meal or heavy hors d'oeuvres. I would like suggestions for region-specific cuisine, within reason. Cost is a factor, so nothing too extravagant. Thanks for your assistance.

Supposedly, this is imported into the US, though I haven't seen it yet. I would love to get my hands on some! Try Hangar One as well, which is distilled from wheat and Viogner grapes.

Charbay vodka is a great vodka, but the flavored vodkas leave a little to be desired. They are artificial tasting. For the best flavored vodka, try Hangar One.

It has a nose that is pleasant enough: grapefruit, mango, etc. , but the palate and finish are horridly sweet and almost distasteful. Save it for the Gansta Rappers.

First of all, there has been no scientific document ever produced that has indicated that drinking Absinthe would cause anything other than a severe hangover. In the coffee houses and salons of France in the 1800's there was a practice of diluting Absinthe with Laudanum (liquid opium), which, surprise, surprise, would cause hallucinations. Absinthe does nothing of the sort. I frequently drink Absinthe and have never hallucinated, been "high" or suffered any medical reprecussions. The levels of Thujone (the "active" ingredient) are so low that you would be forced to consume an entire bottle to get "high". And since most, if not all, commercially prepared Absinthe is above 55% abv, a non-alcoholic would probably die from alcohol poisoning long before finishing the bottle. There is nothing dangerous about Absinthe, never has been and never will be. Yet how many people know someone who claims to have been in "The Twilight Zone" caught in the embrace of La Fee Verte for days on end only to awake in a strange place? They are liars, plain and simple. It is an urban legend akin to "cuban cigars will make you vomit, they are so strong" that is perpetuated in the States. Anyone who has smoked a Hoyo Double Corona knows that Cuban cigars can be mild, and anyone who has drunk Absinthe knows that it tastes like licorice and causes nothing but drunkeness.

I agree Ed, it does have a nice roasted coffee note and some cedary, berry, tobacco notes that make it a perfect accompaniment to a cigar!

Have a nice bottle of Doorly's XO sitting in the cabinet right now. It is tasty!

Ed! Glad to have you on the stogie bandwagon!

I think Four Square is a much better choice for spice rum.

Ed, what do you know about Goslings "gold seal" rum? I have never seen it in my area, but have found mention of it on the internet.

I have seen Tanduay in at least one US based online shop, so I believe the 12 yr is available here.

Haven't had this, but I did try Snoop Dogg's Tequila, Gecko--absolute crap!

Could anyone direct me to an English-speaking website that will ship to the US that has these export only bourbons? Wild Turkey 1855 reserve Wild Turkey Stampede 105 proof Wild Turkey Tradition Bourbon 101 Wild Turkey Kentucky Legend Wild Turkey 86.8 proof Wild Turkey 8 yr 101 proof (not the regular 101) Wild Turkey 4 yr