Wilfrid

Now that brings back some nice memories. We had told the sommelier that we liked reds, and he boldly paired two reds with fish dishes. I would never have thought of drinking that fairly sturdy Burgundy with cod - and probably wouldn't again - but it was certainly interesting. The crisper Brunello perhaps made more sense with a fish dish, but as we reported earlier the lobster itself was somewhat chewy, which distracted attention; I think I sort of ate the dish, then drank the wine, rather than experiencing them together. As for the Shiraz, I was along in eating a very rich braised oxtail dish, and I was content to accompany that with a big, loud Aussie.

I think I know who Simon means by the Don, but I may be wrong. Prompts my choice of John Arlott. Winona Ryder is also in the running.

I get your point all too well. My point, however, is that pasta dishes don't require the sort of techniques which impress you to be good; neither do countless other dishes; nor is it relevant - as my old signature suggested - whether they influence other chefs in that really relatively small circle of which you approve. Your yardstick is randomly chosen to relflect your own preferences, and your only real defense of it as a general yardstick is to point to menu prices. Bill and Claude - points taken. There really is no aim to the debate, other than to amuse oneself to the extent one finds it amusing.

Ba-dum. I think Peter is taking a reasonable line here. Bill made heroic efforts yesterday to find an example of an Italian dish which met Steve's standards. And he got "kreplach" as a response. I think that's the wrong strategy for addressing Steve's position. First - and he'll correct me if I'm wrong - when he measures Italian cuisine against french cuisine, he doesn't mean French home-cooking, or country cooking, or cuisine bourgeois. Nor, I think, does he mean the main historical stream of haute cuisine which came down from Escoffier - I find it hard to imagine Steve eating and enjoying dishes like poularde a la financiere. What Steve really likes to point to are the relative handful of very pricey four star restaurants creating a certain kind of rarified post-nouvelle cuisine. Attempting to identify dishes from another country's cuisine which would sit comfortably on one of these menus is, I suspect, a pretty futile quest. Similarly, discussing how traditional dishes from another cuisine could be refined or altered so that they would fit Steve's preferred profile, is to contemplate the original dish being changed beyond recognition. I think it's more appropriate simply to deny that the cuisine Steve prefers provides standards which are applicable to quite different cuisines. It's one thing for Steve to say he likes the kind of food he does, and rejects food that doesn't make that cut; it's quite another - and illegitimate - thing to hold that his esoteric tastes provide appropriate standards for everything from pasta to fish and chips to curry. Edit to take account of Claude's post: Indeed, but Steve thinks he's not advancing an opinion as to his preferences, but offering a yardstick against which any competent judge would conclude that Italian food is inferior. Now, at one level, it doesn't matter tuppence, as he's not convincing anyone. At another level, it can be amusing to argue about.

OOoh, I got a new sig line there.

Oh yes, I'd love to see him do what Renaud did with a Fleur de Sel-type place.

A clarification and a question: the "praline" at Atelier was the quail which showed up as the first course; the squad and foie-gras dish is the "croustillant" - I'm not suggesting Ron doesn't know which is which, but just in case someone goes there and wants to order one of them. A pity the details of the wine pairing has been pissed away in the dark alley of our memories. And March. I really must go back. But I am assuming the check wasn't $400 a head, which would make it more expensive than ADNY. For two?

I prefer dining solo without having to meet anyone, but the food certainly sounds good.

Several of us had a very disappointing meal in a half-empty (Saturday night, I think?) Lespinasse just a few months back. While I am not celebrating the news, it relieves me of the nagging temptation to go back and see if we were unlucky. Dimitri, I would tread with caution. Anyone know whither Delouvrier?

Oh yeah, I know. Ouch. But thanks, Bill, for taking some of the strain.

You have it upside down, but I don't blame anyone who can't remember the first two or three pages. It was asserted way back then that extraneous considerations such as presentation could not affect taste experiences, because taste is determined by the actual food on the plate. Offering examples of taste experiences not affected by extraneous influences is absolutely beside the point, and that's where the energy's been wasted. It's as if someone said "Wine can't get you drunk" and attempted to support it by citing instances of people drinking wine while remaining sober. Oraklet: can anything other than food on the plate influence taste - ever, in any circumstances? And I don't mean weird stuff, I mean things like drinking wine after eating a bar of chocolate or tasting something subtle when you have a heavy cold. If yes, we agree and can move on.

Oh, broader but still food related? Faulkner, As I Lay Dying - how to clean fish; Roy Campbell's poetry - lots of African game; Octavio Paz's poetry - tacos, somewhere, probably; and Sorel, Reflexions sur la Violence - French.

...which can be affected by extraneous factors, such as presentation. ("The world is a circle, with no beginning, and nobody knows where it really ends...")

Albert Stevens Crockett, Old Waldorf Bar Days.

Right or wrong, he's funny.

I never really doubted that that's possible. I don't know where it gets us, though. It doesn't respond to the question of whether presentation can affect taste.

Chinese/Puerto Rican.

I don't think the British can claim this one. I don't recall ever seeing it growing up.

Can we stipulate that presentation is irrelevant to someone who's blindfolded. JA's post was very sensible. Don't know what it's doing on this thread. I'll look back in six or so pages time and see if Steve's addressed the issue. A reminder: it's not whether it's possible for an expert, or anyone, to exclude the influence of presentation on taste. It's whether it's possible in any circumstances for presentation to have an influence at all. That's my issue, anyway.

Just looked it up. It does look tempting.

Not much sign of activity, I know, but I've been to DiFara's and I Trulli, as well a L'Impero and Gonzo which were not even on the list. I am not sure that L'Impero, like Fiamma, really counts towards my idea of trying to get a handle on traditional New York Italian eating. I've just been over the last page or so and revised the list again, also taking account of comments else where about East Post - that's gone. Lenore's turned out to be La Nora, and from what I've read here I'm going to strike it in favor of Parkside. I'm hearing Cono is better than Bamonte's and Da Tomasso - which of those should I keep, if not for food for traditional ambience? Areo's getting some negatives too, so that's off for the time being (I won't get everywhere). Everyone's warning me off Il Giglio, so maybe it should be Il Mulino - is there any way to reduce the pain of standing in line for a reserved table? When would be good to go? Pizza Patsy's. Heroes 1. Corona Heights Pork Store and Leo's Latticini (Queen's) 2. Dafonte's (Red Hook, Brooklyn). Restaurants Manhattan: 1. Arqua (Church St) 2. Petrosino (LES) 3. Le Madri (Chelsea) 4. Lavagana (E Village) 5. Da Andrea (Village) 6. Centolire (Village) 7. Il Mulino ? (Village) Brooklyn: 1. Al Di La 2. Cono 3. Queen 4. Bamonte's or Da Tommaso? The Bronx: 1. Roberto's (plus Arthur's Avenue tour) 2. The Pines Queens: 1. Don Peppe 2. Piccola Venezia. 3. Manducatis 4. Parkside

Not much sign of activity, I know, but I've been to DiFara's and I Trulli, as well a L'Impero and Gonzo which were not even on the list. I am not sure that L'Impero, like Fiamma, really counts towards my idea of trying to get a handle on traditional New York Italian eating. I've just been over the last page or so and revised the list again, also taking account of comments else where about East Post - that's gone. Lenore's turned out to be La Nora, and from what I've read here I'm going to strike it in favor of Parkside. I'm hearing Cono is better than Bamonte's and Da Tomasso - which of those should I keep, if not for food for traditional ambience? Areo's getting some negatives too, so that's off for the time being (I won't get everywhere). Everyone's warning me off Il Giglio, so maybe it should be Il Mulino - is there any way to reduce the pain of standing in line for a reserved table? When would be good to go? Pizza Patsy's. Heroes Corona Heights Pork Store; Leo's Latticini; Dafonte's. Restaurants Manhattan:Arqua;Centolire;Da Andrea; Il Mulino (?);Lavagna; Le Madri; Petrosino. Brooklyn: Al Di La; Areo; Bamonte's;Da Tommaso;Queen. The Bronx: Roberto's. Queens:Don Peppe;Lenore's;Manducatis;Piccola Venezia.

I haven't been there since last summer. Nick, are you saying they don't serve clams any more? Plus, does anyone know the Old Thyme Bar in that area? I had it recommended to me as a quirky old place, but I never got around to visiting.

It's Fat Guy's reasoning, to the extent he offered it, that made no sense. Since that's been demonstrated, and we haven't heard any alternative reasoning, we may as well... Hey, Jon Acord on the thread. How are you doing? Bet you're glad you read this far!

I endorse the view that murderers should get more humane treatment in prison if they offer their victims a last meal, and from a proper menu, not just a prix fixe. Good to see everyone thinking outside the envelope for once.